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SNU0821_rivals

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Let's agree that everyone here is picking and choosing what they want to address. I'm trying to objectively look at things, though.

I'll go ahead and address both the DNI stuff and the tax stuff here.

--I think I stated before I don't think there was direct collusion between Trump and the Russian government. A good point Trump made is that he has a hard enough time "colluding" with his own government, let alone somebody else's. Whether agents of Trump's campaign had meaningful, purposeful conversations with Russians, asking and receiving help, I don't know.

--It's been proven there was Russian interference in 2016. Based on conclusions reached by people who have educated opinions (Coats, Mattis, etc.), Trump's behavior toward Putin seem to reinforce the idea that Putin "had something on him (direct quote from Coats)."

--All of the quotes and tweets (unless I'm misreading) is that people were going to use Trump's Russian connections against him. Trump hurt himself by going on TV and asking Russia to send Hillary's emails to him and then say he was just joking when called on it.

--The accountant is absolutely correct about claiming depreciation and other things on real estate. For me personally, the amount of losses he claims on his property (while probably exaggerated) isn't the most concerning part of the tax story. That would be the amount of of debt. As I've stated before, over $400 million in personal debt while claiming his businesses are only $34.7 million liquid would prevent him from getting TS/SCI clearance. It would most likely keep him from getting any kind of security clearance if he were a regular government or military member.

The second concern from his taxes are the fact they basically pain him as a con man. His who appeal (other than race hustler for the angry white guy crowd) was supposed to be his high-level business acumen and that he possessed the ability to step in and run the United States government like a highly-efficient corporation. His taxes show he's a highly paid TV personality who gets compensated well for selling his name to basically anybody who wants to slap it on a product. His actual business that he runs appear to almost (Trump Tower, one office each in NY and the Bay) all either be huge failures or exist solely to allow him to milk the losses in an effort to not pay taxes on his NBC and endorsement money.

The third concern is the unethical findings in them. Paying his daughter as a consultant when he also pays her as an employee and then writes off the consulting fees seems to be illegal. I'm not a tax professional but I have read several who say it is and I've read none who say it isn't.

In addition to things like that, the fact that the vast majority of his charitable donations are either to his own organization (which was shuttered after controversy and findings if I remember well) or for things like agreeing not to build on or around certain properties. Again do what you want with your money, but it's hard to buy someone as a servant leader (which the President should be) if he's a supposed billionaire who doesn't give to any causes.

--I'm going to throw this on the end because, well, I feel like it and no better time like the present.

I think the biggest issue I personally have with Trump is how he has made the Republican party look. For one, I don't ever recall a Republican having such a large number of former Republican groups opposing him. That is pretty unusual, and they all seem to have the same message. Trump has stolen the party, taken all meaning from it and turned it into his own bully-pulpit.

Jared Kushner, who makes a lot of interesting comments about his father-in-law, made the statement that they basically came in and did the equivalent of a hostile corporate takeover of the Republican party.

Listen to the rhetoric that comes from his (and his fiercest supporters) mouth. Watch the actions that he has taken and committed. Hear the lies about **** he doesn't even have to lie about.

That's not family values, fiscal conservatism or small government. It's hatred and narcissism.

One of you guys mentioned about changing somebody mind on who to vote for earlier. I'm not trying to do that. I'm just expressing my opinions and addressing some of the things you asked about.
Thanks for answering honestly. I disagree with some, but that's ok.

The one on the new information coming out from the DNI basically blow a hole wide open about the whole Russian collusion investigation. They didn't have anything on Trump and essentially made it up to hurt him. Obama knew about it. Biden knew about it. McCabe knew about it. Comey knew about it. Strozk knew about it. Brennan apparently set it all up. Pretty much everyone who was anyone at the time was a part of putting this together.

How this isn't the biggest political scandal of all time, is just further proof the MSM is in the bag for the Dems and will do anything to get Trump out of office.
 

Jtre

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Thanks for answering honestly. I disagree with some, but that's ok.

The one on the new information coming out from the DNI basically blow a hole wide open about the whole Russian collusion investigation. They didn't have anything on Trump and essentially made it up to hurt him. Obama knew about it. Biden knew about it. McCabe knew about it. Comey knew about it. Strozk knew about it. Brennan apparently set it all up. Pretty much everyone who was anyone at the time was a part of putting this together.

How this isn't the biggest political scandal of all time, is just further proof the MSM is in the bag for the Dems and will do anything to get Trump out of office.

It not being the largest scandal of the decade is probably due in large part to none of it coming out until Trump has an attorney general in place who has expressed the ideas that his office is supposed to provide personal legal counsel for Trump and that the DOJ essentially works for him and is to do his bidding. The fact that the last DNI head (a Trump appointee) is on record saying he believes Putin has something on Trump and none of this comes out until he's gone hurts credibility. The fact that Barr approached the DNI in such a manner that made some people (not ones that names keep coming up) question if they needed personal attorneys and liability insurance can hurt credibility. Finally, the fact that Trump has a history of outing people who don't do his bidding and also currently has the power to basically clear anybody of any wrongdoing can hurt credibility.
 

SNU0821_rivals

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It not being the largest scandal of the decade is probably due in large part to none of it coming out until Trump has an attorney general in place who has expressed the ideas that his office is supposed to provide personal legal counsel for Trump and that the DOJ essentially works for him and is to do his bidding. The fact that the last DNI head (a Trump appointee) is on record saying he believes Putin has something on Trump and none of this comes out until he's gone hurts credibility. The fact that Barr approached the DNI in such a manner that made some people (not ones that names keep coming up) question if they needed personal attorneys and liability insurance can hurt credibility. Finally, the fact that Trump has a history of outing people who don't do his bidding and also currently has the power to basically clear anybody of any wrongdoing can hurt credibility.
So you're basically saying he's lying? That all this information that appears damning isn't true?

The FBI and DOJ all look bad considering they had people involved in this. So naturally they would want to protect themselves from any involvement in the biggest scandal in our political history. Do you disagree there would be a vested interest in keeping this under wraps? Honest answer here. The fact that Barr and Durham are going after them doesn't mean they're doing the president's bidding. It could mean they are looking to out the truth.

But I'm sure you were just fine with Eric Holder saying he was Obama's wingman, right?
 
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So address the declassifications from the DNI now. Or are you going to deflect even more because you know the whole thing was ********?
Thanks for answering honestly. I disagree with some, but that's ok.

The one on the new information coming out from the DNI basically blow a hole wide open about the whole Russian collusion investigation. They didn't have anything on Trump and essentially made it up to hurt him. Obama knew about it. Biden knew about it. McCabe knew about it. Comey knew about it. Strozk knew about it. Brennan apparently set it all up. Pretty much everyone who was anyone at the time was a part of putting this together.

How this isn't the biggest political scandal of all time, is just further proof the MSM is in the bag for the Dems and will do anything to get Trump out of office.

I haven’t seen anything about this but I have read over the document you referred to. I don’t think it says what you’re claiming it says. Did you read it?

This is an actual sentence in it:

“The IC does not know the accuracy of this allegation or to the extent Russian intelligence analysis may reflect exaggeration.”

Multiple times they refer to it as “alleged approval”. Who is alleging this?

The whole document is basically the CIA director briefing the President on what’s going on. Then they use the word “alleged“ a lot and ultimately refer it to be investigated.

I don’t recall anyone getting charged with anything so, I’m going to assume that investigation went nowhere.

I don’t know man, this kinda looks like Bill Barr trying to throw the President a life raft.
 

GhostOf301

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TheDude1

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Oh god, are they getting fixated on a piece of Russian disinformation that we have admitted we have absolutely no evidence is true? I mean, I am sure the Russians would NEVER put random BS out there to muddy the waters... right?

Sure. Why not. I'm sure that it was released because it is actually true, and this is how our intelligence agencies deal with intelligence. That's how they do it, right? They release the real important stuff, like political campaigns coordinating with foreign powers, to the public before they have investigated it, and they'll just investigate it later. Makes sense.

I'm just trying to figure out is how Biden memorized all of the questions and answers for the debate when he is so deep into alzheimer's? It's crazy.
 

Jtre

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So you're basically saying he's lying? That all this information that appears damning isn't true?

The FBI and DOJ all look bad considering they had people involved in this. So naturally they would want to protect themselves from any involvement in the biggest scandal in our political history. Do you disagree there would be a vested interest in keeping this under wraps? Honest answer here. The fact that Barr and Durham are going after them doesn't mean they're doing the president's bidding. It could mean they are looking to out the truth.

But I'm sure you were just fine with Eric Holder saying he was Obama's wingman, right?

I agree, if everything you have quoted is true, I can see those involved having an interest in keeping it under wraps.

On the flip side, I can see the President, whose desire to undo everything Obama seems to he rooted, at least to some degree, in the former President clowning him at a dinner, seems like the type of individual who might want to bury those who came for him if he has the means to do so, regardless if the original actions were legitimate and based in truth.

Finally, if you haven't noticed, I try to stick to what we're discussing, not make assumptions about you based on other people's comments. Why do you seem to have a hard time giving me the same courtesy?
 

TheDude1

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Man, if something like "The Russians put out completely unsubstantiated misinformation that Hillary Clinton was coordinating with Russia," even when we know, from our OWN intelligence agencies, that Russia has worked extensively over the years (including in 2016) to help Trump get elected, gets righties SO upset...

... can you imagine how they would feel that the President's personal lawyer worked with Russian intelligence assets, and his campaign manager worked with Russian intelligence assets, and his close advisor and friend worked with Russian intelligence assets, and his national security advisor talking with Russians about ignoring US sanctions, and of course there was that whole meeting with Putin, where Trump wouldn't allow notes to be kept? Or that time that Trump said he believed Putin over US intelligence? Oh man, or when Trump called on Russia to find Clinton's emails, and then THAT NIGHT they did? And we won't even get into his business dealings in Russia, or with Russians here, who invested hundreds of millions of dollars into Trump buildings?

If the Trumpers knew about all of THAT, they would LOSE THEIR MIND... I mean, a single piece of completely unsubstantiated Russian propaganda has them foaming at the mouth... can you IMAGINE if Donald did all of THAT?!

And guess what? That's all factual stuff. I included links.
 
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Jtre

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Here's a good article outlining the issues.


Yeah, this is where we are in 2020. A "patriotic," blogger taking the words of the Russians, who have been proven to have interfered in our 2016 election, against our intelligence community, which happens to be heavily made up of ex-military personnel, in an effort to prop up an individual who continuously ***** on allies of the United States all the while speaking favorably of and acting favorably toward murderous dictators like Putin, Erdogan and Duterte.

I didn't use the words "Trump," or "President," so you can read it verbatim and see how utterly insane it sounds.
 

Jtre

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I agree, if everything you have quoted is true, I can see those involved having an interest in keeping it under wraps.

On the flip side, I can see the President, whose desire to undo everything Obama seems to he rooted, at least to some degree, in the former President clowning him at a dinner, seems like the type of individual who might want to bury those who came for him if he has the means to do so, regardless if the original actions were legitimate and based in truth.

Finally, if you haven't noticed, I try to stick to what we're discussing, not make assumptions about you based on other people's comments. Why do you seem to have a hard time giving me the same courtesy?

I assume your laughing about the last paragraph. What assumptions have I made about you?
 

Jtre

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OK, I'm going to throw out a question to the groups, hoping that it generates some actual conversation.

I've already said (I think, if I haven't said it here I said it in real life multiple times) Hillary is probably the worst presidential candidate in my lifetime. She is truly unlikable, (unlike her husband) does not come off like a person of the people and was (is) a female candidate when there was a a whole lot of people on both sides who wanted to go back to a having a white male for a president. I think truly almost anyone else could have beaten her and I think she was the only candidate Trump could beat.

Now to the question: Is the United States in better or worse shape on September 29, 2020 if Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio, Jed Bush or John Kasich was elected in 2016?
 

GhostOf301

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OK, I'm going to throw out a question to the groups, hoping that it generates some actual conversation.

I've already said (I think, if I haven't said it here I said it in real life multiple times) Hillary is probably the worst presidential candidate in my lifetime. She is truly unlikable, (unlike her husband) does not come off like a person of the people and was (is) a female candidate when there was a a whole lot of people on both sides who wanted to go back to a having a white male for a president. I think truly almost anyone else could have beaten her and I think she was the only candidate Trump could beat.

Now to the question: Is the United States in better or worse shape on September 29, 2020 if Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio, Jed Bush or John Kasich was elected in 2016?
Leave your opinion on race and gender and how people allegedly determined who they voted for based on those out of any legitimate attempt to have a conversation and we can get somewhere.
 
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Jtre

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Leave your opinion on race and gender and how people allegedly determined who they voted for based on those out of any legitimate attempt to have a conversation and we can get somewhere.

You don't think there's a possibility that a lot of the voters who stayed home in 2016 were pseudo-woke Democrats who voted for Barack Obama because they felt it was their duty to eradicate racism and wanted a return to the status quo with a white guy as the nominee?

The 2020 nominee is literally in place because he's an old, middle of the road white guy.
 
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GhostOf301

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This high IQ fella should study the difference between senility and dementia. Any honest person will acknowledge the clear signs of dementia with pedo Joe.
 
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GhostOf301

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You don't think there's a possibility that a lot of the voters who stayed home in 2016 were pseudo-woke Democrats who voted for Barack Obama because they felt it was their duty to eradicate racism and wanted a return to the status quo with a white guy as the nominee?

The 2020 nominee is literally in place because he's an old, middle of the road white guy.
It is a hypothetical and unsubstantiated opinion. Your opinion. IMO, this kind of regurgitated nonsense is what turns regular people away from the left. As soon as we get accused of voting for Trump because he is a white male, all channels to reasonable conversation are closed.
 
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topps coach

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While we will never see eye to eye on politics I respect your opinions and your right to express them.My problem with most liberals are that they refuse to acknowledge any problems with their candidate.I have said that I probably would not like Trump as a person,however in Biden’s forty seven years as a national politician he has aligned himself with KKK leader going as far as saying he was his mentor.He opposed integration,sponsored a bill that put hundreds of thousands of minorities in prison while saying he did want his kids grow up in a social jungle but Trump is the racist.Biden says that Trump is incapable of telling the truth but he had to drop out of a one presidential race due to lying.This lying is still going on when pandering to a crowd in South Carolina he said he went to a HBCU college yetTrump is the congenital liar.if this is going to be a referendum on character, I submit that Biden’s has caused more damage simply due to where he has worked throughout his career. His own advisors have said he has been on the wrong side of every issue during his career.Finally I have to ask you about his cognitive abilities and stamina.He has shut down his campaign by 10:00 am 11 times in September. You cannot overlook his gaffes and problems with keeping facts straight.Finally I am for the person who prepandemic was overseeing the best economy of my lifetime while keeping us out of any new wars
 
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SNU0821_rivals

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This high IQ fella should study the difference between senility and dementia. Any honest person will acknowledge the clear signs of dementia with pedo Joe.
It bothers me when people talk about things they really know little about. That high IQ guy should take some time and learn a bit about dementia, ah hell, politics too. He really doesn’t seem to know much about either...
 

Jtre

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It is a hypothetical and unsubstantiated opinion. Your opinion. IMO, this kind of regurgitated nonsense is what turns regular people away from the left. As soon as we get accused of voting for Trump because he is a white male, all channels to reasonable conversation are closed.

I didn't accuse you of voting for Trump because he was white. I think he spoke to and mobilized white people by speaking to things some of them are very concerned about.

I also think the inability to vote for Trump but refusal to vote for Hillary (due to all the factors I mentioned) was a reason voter turnout was lower by percentage of registered voters from both 2012 and 2008.

I think all the factors I mentioned are reasons that 5.7 percent of voters in 2016 voted indepedent (compared to 1.7 percent in 2012 and 1.4 percent in 2008).

Everything I just wrote is about the 2016 election as compared to the previous two was factual. To act like a portion of Americans didn't have a desire for a return to governmental familiarity in 2016 is to ignore human nature and, quite frankly, to ignore some of the battlegrounds of 2016.
 

Jtre

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While we will never see eye to eye on politics I respect your opinions and your right to express them.My problem with most liberals are that they refuse to acknowledge any problems with their candidate.I have said that I probably would not like Trump as a person,however in Biden’s forty seven years as a national politician he has aligned himself with KKK leader going as far as saying he was his mentor.He opposed integration,sponsored a bill that put hundreds of thousands of minorities in prison while saying he did want his kids grow up in a social jungle but Trump is the racist.Biden says that Trump is incapable of telling the truth but he had to drop out of a one presidential race due to lying.This lying is still going on when pandering to a crowd in South Carolina he said he went to a HBCU college yetTrump is the congenital liar.if this is going to be a referendum on character, I submit that Biden’s has caused more damage simply due to where he has worked throughout his career. His own advisors have said he has been on the wrong side of every issue during his career.Finally I have to ask you about his cognitive abilities and stamina.He has shut down his campaign by 10:00 am 11 times in September. You cannot overlook his gaffes and problems with keeping facts straight.Finally I am for the person who prepandemic was overseeing the best economy of my lifetime while keeping us out of any new wars

Yeah, I'm not a huge fan of Joe Biden, but I do think he seems like a decent human being. I respect the stories of him raising his sons while working in Congress. I expressed a couple posts up why I feel he's the nominee. Truthfully, I hate the fact him being labeled as "safe," candidate was nothing more than code for old, centrist white guy.

The racial stuff doesn't bother me because it can't. If I held beef with every old white person who held borderline or worse racist beliefs in fifty years ago I wouldn't speak to anybody over the age of about 35. It's about who those people become through experience, exposure and education.

My beef with Trump (among many, but I'm sticking to this topic) is he IS still a racist. He based much of his 2016 campaign around the villianization of Hispanics and used scare tactics to connect with a lot of white voters. He refused to disavow support from David Duke and claimed not know what the Klan was (Really, how hard it would have been to say there was no room on the Trump train for those kinds of supporters). He continues to use verbiage and talking points straight out the pre- Civil Rights era (siccing dogs on people, coming for our heritage, southern White House, good people on both sides, etc.). His constant references to his Black critics as dumb (check for it, everyone else gets personalized insults, Blacks get they're stupid. Even Ben Carson got the same treatment in 2016). I have more but I'm honestly getting tired of rehashing it.

Finally, I don't normally post links, but I'm sure no one here (from either side) will go off about the source.


I'd never heard the HBCU comment but I trust the source used for the above article.