Singler graduated, won a title and was an All American. What didn't he do? Win POY?
The spin on Vernon Carey wearing no.1
- Thread starter hart2chesson
- Start date
Singler never came really close to ACC POY and did not make any of the major All-America teams. He was a model of consistency and played in an era when Duke played lots of games. And of course, Duke played lots of games in part because of Singler. But a strong case can be made that Singler was never even the best player on his team. Nelson in 2008, Henderson in 2009, Scheyer in 2010, Smith in 2011.
Singler's cumulative stats are very impressive. But on a per-game-basis, he's not really near the top in anything in Duke's history.
A program at Duke's level necessarily has to be very selective in this area. Put Singler on all but a couple of ACC programs and a retirement ceremony is a no-brainer. But at Duke's level I don't see how they could so honor someone who never even made second-team All-American.
And yes, he gave his heart-and-soul to Duke for four years. But so did Jim Spanarkel, Gene Banks, Mark Alarie, Chris Carrawell, Chris Duhon, Scheyer, Smith, Grayson Allen and other great players who have not had their jerseys retired.
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Well said, you picked two good ones Chris. Guys that make me proud to wear the THE TRUE BLUE AND WHITE EVERYDAY I CAN!
OFC
I never understood the ire directed at Bagley for wearing 35. He did the respectful thing and asked the former player if it was alright. The former player could have easily said, just as respectfully, that he would have preferred if Bagley did not wear that number. Instead, he seemed to appreciate the gesture and said yes. Seems like the right way to do it on both sides. At least it does to me.
I've always liked seeing numbers be associated with players and those players being honored with the number. I've never seen anything offensive about other players wearing a retired number. I've never seen that as disrespectful. It seems more important to honor the player and not the number. The only thing special about the number is that it wasn't already taken and that a great player wore it.
I've always liked seeing numbers be associated with players and those players being honored with the number. I've never seen anything offensive about other players wearing a retired number. I've never seen that as disrespectful. It seems more important to honor the player and not the number. The only thing special about the number is that it wasn't already taken and that a great player wore it.
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I think you’re down-playing his impact quite a bit. He was All-ACC twice so top-5 in POY voting twice. Duke has played 35ish games per season since the early 80s. He played exactly the same amount of games as Laettner.
Nelson was the senior cap in ‘08 but Singler won ACC ROY and his stats were nearly identical to his. ‘09 G’s athleticism created hype and most outsiders claim he was Duke’s best player. Pure talent I won’t argue G’s upper-hand, but Singler’s stats were better. Jon and Nolan may have had slightly better campaigns in ‘10/‘11 but Kyle was directly in the rearview mirror. They were all 3 excellent in their own ways, I have a hard time saying one was better than the other.
I’m glad you agree that his cumulative stats are impressive. If we are debating a jersey retirement then shouldn’t we be looking at that total body of work? You don’t end up #4 scoring and #7 rebounds all-time at a school like Duke by not performing on a per-game basis man.
2nd team All-American in 2 of the major polls. AP honorable mention a couple times. Finalist for a ton of awards. I know that isn’t as glorified as 1st team, consensus selection or winning said award and that’s a fair point. Our guys in the rafters are much more individually decorated players. You’re right in saying that a program of Duke’s caliber has to be very selective.
Not disagreeing that those guys didn’t give their heart and soul. All of those names had a stellar season or two. But their collective careers as a whole including statistics aren’t as impressive as Kyle’s IMO.
Maybe I just have a soft spot for the guy, maybe you’re just being too critical. It’s a controversial topic and endlessly debatable. I think we both have solid points. Perhaps we can just agree that he’s one of our best players in history.
And that should just about some it up Duke fans. If you dont get it after Jim's post here you never will. OFC
What blows my mind is we actually have a thread about an incoming player wearing #1. Zion had one of the greatest year ever by back Duke player but he hasn't even come close to the criteria for having #1 retired. Now if this thread was about Carey wearing #4, 10, 11, 22, 23,24, 25, 31,32, 33, 35, 43 or 44 then we have a discussion. OFC
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I really don’t disagree with anything you said here. Kyle Singler was a bad ***...plain and simple. His cumulative stats jump out. But, he didn’t meet the established criteria. That doesn’t make him any less of a player. He also played on two below-average teams, by Duke standards.
Kyle ranks among my all-time favorites, but there’s other guys with similar arguments.
And for the record, I do believe in concessions. If Zion can someday get a degree and become an NBA HOF-caliber player, then I think he will warm himself consideration. Right now based on one college season alone? IMO, no. And he’s the best college player I’ve ever watched.
Well we had that "discussion" about an incoming player "wearing" one of those numbers couple summers ago. There were definitely feelings on both sides of the issue.
As far as someone wearing Zion's jersey this year, it doesnt "blow my mind" we're having the discussion. Its a talking point because of not only the footprint he left at Duke, but college basketball in general. Thus I am not surprised. (Although I do agree w/you, he hasn't "met the criteria" for jersey retirement).
In so far as all the great players mentioned, Jim reeled off quite an impressive list. (Bill Brill and Al Featherston are smiling above Jim)..... OFC
I know Duke doesn't want to retire jerseys all the time like the faux school down the road does. There ought to be a special recognition of guys who gave up their own glory for the good of the team.
Singler played inside when we needed it and then switched to the wing because again we needed it.
Quin Cook played wing to help the team and was an all American.
Scheyer came off the bench one year, played point guard his senior year, led the team to the National Championship.
Battier did everything the team needed him to do.
I'm sure there are more examples of guys who excelled at multiple roles for the good of the team.
Singler played inside when we needed it and then switched to the wing because again we needed it.
Quin Cook played wing to help the team and was an all American.
Scheyer came off the bench one year, played point guard his senior year, led the team to the National Championship.
Battier did everything the team needed him to do.
I'm sure there are more examples of guys who excelled at multiple roles for the good of the team.
Liftee I like your post. Several truly good examples of adjustments. OFC
I think there is a pretty easy solution. No jersey, no statue.
The court is named after Coach K. Duke needs to name the rims after Zion Williamson.
Only GOATs get their name affixed to playing surfaces.
The court is named after Coach K. Duke needs to name the rims after Zion Williamson.
Only GOATs get their name affixed to playing surfaces.
I'd also be fine if they named the nets after JJ Redick.
Two wonderful posts....Lmao.....Of course guys like Verga, Armstrong, Langdon and others may deserve name on those nets too! We could name the nets like a law firm of partners!
OFCGot to agree that Singler's number needs to be retired. The guy won a NCAA Title, put up the numbers and played his butt off every game. Agree with Christophero, he and Battier were complete warriors. Maybe the two hardest playing guys we have ever had.
Both Singler and Battier should have their numbers hung in the rafters. Both are the prime example of what Duke BB is all about IMO. Like its been said, they both played with so much heart, led teams to a Natty, and walked across the stage and collected their diploma . Also Mr Battier will be the POTUS one day. I actually thought they had already retired Shane's jersey.
Like your comment about Shane and POTUS. If and when he ever runs for office, hes got my vote!
OFC
OFC
And Shane was probably was one of our most outstanding Student-Athletes ever. Thats not to denigrate anyone else at all, he just defined that designation so well and became a walking billboard for Duke much like Grant Hill as an ambassador for the university. I am sure G-Man and a number of others up there carry most of the same merits.
OFC
Just as an aside Singler is also the last top 5 guy who will ever stay all 4 years.
That's only because Carey got dropped down to #6Just as an aside Singler is also the last top 5 guy who will ever stay all 4 years.
Let's say if Zion has a LeBron-like career and become regarded as one of the GOATs and he gives a lot back to the program...would it then be ok to retire his jersey?
--not saying this will definitely happen
--not saying this will definitely happen
I'm not sure how anyone could read my posts and see them as critical of Singler.
For the record, Kyle Singler was never the highest vote-getter for All-ACC on any of the four Duke teams he played on.
He was fourth in voting for All-ACC in 2010. Vasquez and Scheyer got the ACC POY votes.
He was fourth in voting for All-ACC in 2011.
Singler received zero votes for ACC POY in 2010.
He received one in 2011. Nolan Smith received 73.
He was never a serious candidate for ACC Player of the Year. Never.
Singler never made AP All-America, never made first-team All-America for anyone. He was second-team All-America for the USBWA in 2011. He was not a consensus second-team A-A that year.
I was not comparing Singler's games played to other Duke players of the modern era but to the era predating freshman eligibility.
Singler played 148 games at Duke and averaged 16.2 points per game. That ranks 15th in school history and that's not including any of the freshmen one-and-dones. He's not in the top-20 in RPG.
Let's compare to Bob Verga, who played 80 games and averaged 22.0 ppg. Would anyone maintain that Singler's 16.2 ppg are superior to Verga's 22 ppg because Singler played almost twice as many games?
And Verga played in an era without a shot clock or 3-point shot and he was a great 3-point shooter.
Bob Verga was first-team All-ACC three times, consensus second-team all-American in 1966, first-team in 1967. In 1967 Verga led the ACC with 26.1 ppg, still the second-highest mark in Duke history. He was the leading vote-getter in All-ACC voting in 1967 and finished a few votes behind Larry Miller for ACC POY.
And Verga's number is NOT retired. I do not think a case can be made for retiring Singler's jersey before retiring that of Verga.
And it's not just Verga. Jim Spanarkel was every bit as tough, as smart and as important to the program as was Singler. Randy Denton averaged 19.7 points and 12.7 rebounds per game. I would take Mark Alarie at his peak over Kyle Singler at his peak any day and it's not because I don't appreciate Singler's contributions. Same with Jack Marin, same with Gene Banks. I covered many of his games from court-side and probably interviewed him a hundred times.
And none of these players have their jerseys retired. So, Singler isn't even at the top of my list of omissions.
I loved Singler's game. But I loved a lot of other players' games. There are just too many great players in Duke's history to retire the jerseys of anyone except the truly, truly elite and I just don't see how Singler meets that standard.
BP, this is an appropriate time to wave the white flag.
Per dechamp's inquiry reference ZION,Its an interesting scenario, but I would say no. I think the ultimate "giving back" would be RETURNING AT SOME POINT and completing his education. Quite frankly I believe Zion will follow through on it!
It would be "giving back" I feel in terms of the publicity generated to inspire others to follow the same path. Zion's a really bright guy, and as I said I think will return to earn the prestigious Duke degree. OFC
It would be "giving back" I feel in terms of the publicity generated to inspire others to follow the same path. Zion's a really bright guy, and as I said I think will return to earn the prestigious Duke degree. OFC
BP personally I think you're a really good poster, and can understand your sentiments for Singler. No need to stop sharing your views. Likewise, Sumner brings excellent factual information/insight from his role as a noteworthy Duke writer and historian dating back to my era. Very good debate men! Enjoyed reading it! OFC
I loved Kyle Singler. How could anyone not apprciate him.He was a warrior. The kind of player I wish we had every year but if his number is retired so should Verga's. It is under Hurley. So should Randy Denton, Jim Spanarkel, Gene Banks, Mark Alarie ( Laettner), Jon Scheyer, Nolan Smith and Elton Brand. That would be 18 retired numbers. If Duke did nothe have a set criteria and with all the great players coming in through the years they would run out of numbers. How about Tatum, Ingram, Parker and Okafor. Can a legit argument be said for them? Why can't Duke have a wall of honor or some type of honoring these players. Duke cannot retire every number just because we think that player deserves it. OFC
I don't understand your post. Has Zion asked for his jersey to be retired? If not then I don't see how he's trying to have anything both ways.
I have no objection to his jersey going up in Cameron. Based on his one year, it's the best individual freshman year anyone has had at Duke. He also carried, and continues to carry, himself in an impeccable manner off the floor.
Finally, once Ferry's number came back for Bagley to wear, I think we can chill with the standards and requirements talk around jersey retirements.
Singler's jersey doesn't need to go up any sooner than those of Jon Scheyer, Nolan Smith or Quinn Cook. The title he won is the main reason people call for #12 to be retired (other than that heart and soul, intangible, stayed four when he could have left after three BS) and Singler was of no bigger importance to his title-winning team than the other three guys were to their respective title teams.
Critical by definition is disapproving judgement. You’re disapproving the idea of retiring his jersey aren’t you? I never said he was the highest vote, I said he was considered a top-5 ACC player twice. I noted too that he wasn’t a consensus AA. I also agreed with you that the guys hanging in rafters were much more individually decorated. You’re on the money there.
However, I wouldn’t say that he was never a serious contender for ACC-POY. He was the preseason pick his senior year and absolutely hit a brick wall shooting during conference, it was abysmal. Nolan on the other hand was dropping around 25ppg in ACC play and thus ran away with the award. (*Didn’t look up his exact ppg during conference, 25 is a rough estimate from memory)
Laettner averaged 16.8ppg and we widely regard him as our greatest player ever, Singler’s 16.2 is pretty close to that. If we’re going to pick that apart then let’s at least put it in perspective. I understand that his RPG isn’t top-20 in history, but wouldn’t you say that’s pretty good for a player 6’8” that played the 3/4 spot?
Although my strong Duke fan hood has gained me some insight on the guys from the 60s-70s, I don’t think I have any business debating you on their accomplishments and rightful-ness to belong in the rafters. It was well before my time. I’m familiar with all the names you mentioned, but “familiar” is as far as it goes. Given what you posted, I could probably agree that those men all belong in the discussion as well and potentially ahead of Singler’s case.
You have made it crystal-clear that awards carry the weight in your opinion. I think that’s fair and accurate with how that selective process works. I do get your viewpoint. I typically would agree but I see Kyle as the jack of all trades. Being good at everything while not having a stellar specific skill makes it harder to compete for those accolades. That viewpoint is why I build a non-traditional case for Kyle’s #12 hanging high. I think we will just have to agree to disagree, so I will take the advice of @Mac9192 and wave that white flag.
If we directly glare at Nolan and Jon’s jr/sr campaigns then I could agree that they have a place in the discussion. Overall, Kyle’s body of work over the 4 years in total is more impactful - IMO.
I love Quinn but he has no business hanging high.
BP good job, you "waved the flag"" PROVING you're a class act. However you did a very nice job in your parting post on the matter in making your points. OFC
As I said, the only legitimate reason Singler gets in this conversation is the title. If Quinn Cook is not around in 2015 providing the leadership and steady-hand (you know, the intangibles like heart and soul) then Duke likely doesn't win a title.
In your previous post you mentioned Laettner's career scoring average then brought Singler's up and called for context. Context would be that Laettner was sixth, nearly seventh, on his freshman team in minutes per game and spent the first half of the season playing behind Danny Ferry and Alaa Abdelnaby until he was inserted into the starting lineup for Abdelnaby. John Smith and Robert Brickey also played a lot of minutes in the frontcourt that season. You could certainly argue that Singler would have had a career average of 16.2 had his career started in that situation rather than beating out Taylor King and sophomores Lance and Zoubek (who were not near the guys they were 2 years later).
BeerPoisioning--what's the story behind that user name--raises a good point relative to accolades.
I think you have to have objective criteria. Stats are one of those objective criteria but recognition outside the program also has to be one. And that's not just my opinion. I have had conversations on this subject with Kevin White over the years and Duke does take that sort of thing into consideration.
Jay Bilas has stated that his classmate David Henderson should have his jersey required. Now, if you want to start a thread on toughest players to ever wear a Duke jersey, then Henderson would be on my short lsit. Tough physically, tough mentally, a great clutch player.
But Henderson never even made All-ACC. He should have been in 1986, IMO, but that's another discussion. But Jay's opinion is personal and impressionistic and not backed up by any objective criteria.
Let me elaborate a bit on my contention that Dukes' standards for jersey retirement necessarily have to be very strict. Duke has an athletics hall of fame. There are anywhere between 14 and 17 former basketball players--depending on how we count someone like Bob Gantt--who are in the Duke hof who do not have their jerseys retired, including a lot of the people we're talking about, e.g. Verga, Spanarkel, Denton, Banks, Marin.
Again, that speaks to the depth of the bench, so to speak. I know/knew a lot of these people and they all consider this a great honor. Down the road, I suspect Singler, Scheyer, Smith, maybe Cook or Duhon or Allen join that list.
And Elton Brand is a member, so there does not appear to be a graduation requirement.
Here's a link, for those interested.
http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?ATCLID=209600156
I think you have to have objective criteria. Stats are one of those objective criteria but recognition outside the program also has to be one. And that's not just my opinion. I have had conversations on this subject with Kevin White over the years and Duke does take that sort of thing into consideration.
Jay Bilas has stated that his classmate David Henderson should have his jersey required. Now, if you want to start a thread on toughest players to ever wear a Duke jersey, then Henderson would be on my short lsit. Tough physically, tough mentally, a great clutch player.
But Henderson never even made All-ACC. He should have been in 1986, IMO, but that's another discussion. But Jay's opinion is personal and impressionistic and not backed up by any objective criteria.
Let me elaborate a bit on my contention that Dukes' standards for jersey retirement necessarily have to be very strict. Duke has an athletics hall of fame. There are anywhere between 14 and 17 former basketball players--depending on how we count someone like Bob Gantt--who are in the Duke hof who do not have their jerseys retired, including a lot of the people we're talking about, e.g. Verga, Spanarkel, Denton, Banks, Marin.
Again, that speaks to the depth of the bench, so to speak. I know/knew a lot of these people and they all consider this a great honor. Down the road, I suspect Singler, Scheyer, Smith, maybe Cook or Duhon or Allen join that list.
And Elton Brand is a member, so there does not appear to be a graduation requirement.
Here's a link, for those interested.
http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?ATCLID=209600156