I've been high on Landon Young since I watched him wrestle as a high school freshman. His efforts in camps both his junior &senior years and recent play in Army AA game were judged outstanding by coaching staff and sponsors. If Leavitt, Wolfe, Stenberg, LaRubbio, Taylor, and Meadows who all have SEC o. tackle size have outstanding spring & fall camps will determine whether Landon red-shirts. I've blogged before Landon Young is the best UK o. tackle commit since Warren Bryant!
The Trouble at Tackle
- Thread starter JPFisher
- Start date
No one here knows who in the 2016 class "should" start or play, rather than RS. That is fact, for those who claim to rely upon facts.
and the coaches won't know either until they get them here and work them out, plus see how quickly they can pick up the schemes and their individual assignments. Having said that, it's fun to speculate, especially since there isn't much else to do right now.
Agreed. But, when fans go beyond that understanding and place uninformed expectations on new players, it usually only leads to later ignorant comments about how someone was over rated or something else derogatory.
I wonder what position you don't worry about future depth? We've got the two starters in place for two years likely & one for longer. That's a great place to build from. Yes, we've had difficulty getting even this far & have had bad fortune with unexpected losses, but at least we have a foundation in place now. Me, I worry more about maintaining the other line.
I hear ya. I'll be the first to note that my level of concern is paltry compared to the concern I had 4 yrs ago. Lol.
True, but he does have to start worrying about how L's will hinder recruiting. It's year 4 & UK is going to become a harder sell without showing some improvement. Finebaum is already giving CM Stoops a lot of grief on the national air waves. The noise will only get louder next year unless improvement is seen. I'm afraid that all of the noise & the negative recruiting will really hurt UK's recruiting unless the product on the field improves.
Now, none of that means that Young should or should not play. That decision should be based on whether or not Young is the best option @ one of the OT spots or not. Only time will tell...
And I think too many football fans put emphasis on redshirts. That everybody gets better every year. Morgan Newton? Aaron Boyd? Micah Johnson? We could have sat those guys for a thousand years and they wouldn't be any better than when they left after four. We got out of them what we could get out of them. We've redshirt plenty and we are what we are.
Players have ceilings. They can only be so good. The problem with Kentucky football is that we haven't gotten players who were ever going to hit an all conference level regardless of time.
Stoops is changing that I think, but it'll only stay that way with winning now. Thank God these kentucky players are coming in, or this recruiting class after this many bowless seasons would be terrible. That won't happen again.
We have to start winning. And that may require burning a redshirt or two for the common good. If Young and drake Jackson in some small way help us in any way win six games this year and that helps us get Wills? So be it. We can redshirt him.
Players have ceilings and if they aren't performing after a couple years then you send them packing. But if darrian miller and Avery Johnson get rs'd we probably go bowling at least 1 of the last 2 years. Trading true Fr for rs sr years is what kills teams like us if we ever want to do more than 6 wins every 5 or 6 years.
I do agree that players have ceilings too. RS increases the likelihood to reach that ceiling during the short time a player is here. So, in theoretical perfect setting everyone would be RS when they get to campus. This is regardless of talent. We should hope that Stoops has the luxury of RS players.
I definitely think that most FR should RS. However...
It's easy to say that UK should have RSed D Miller. However, if it wasn't for him playing as a jumbo TE, as true FR, against UT, UK's losing streak is probably still ongoing. Kudos to Randy Sanders for playing a WR @ QB & for using D Miller as a jumbo TE.
Ditto for M Johnson. We may not have beaten Clemson, if not for his red zone touchdown, his true FR year. We were actually over matched & struggled to move the ball, but he was hoss enough to punch it in. That TD & the deep home run throw to D Ford were UK's only scores.
Also, a RS would not have prevented RB's from burning M Johnson in pass coverage. And who knew or knows for sure if a guy who was virtually a 5 star, would still be @ UK for his 5th year or if he'd go pro after 3, like R Cobb.
Ditto for Elam. He is the guy who actually helped slow down South Carolina's running game (as a true FR) and IMHO, he was the cause of Spurrier more or less abandoning the run. Before Elam went into the game, SC was running almost at will between the tackles. However, Elam was so big that SC's linemen had problems with him. Elam was actually a difference maker in that game. Don't believe me? Go back and CAREFULLY watch that game. The 2014 game, not the 2015 game.
So the big question is, are wins against UT, Clemson and South Carolina worth burning a RS?
Also, I totally agree that RSing A Boyd & M Newton would likely not have helped them. In fact, it was probably best that they were only taking up a spot on the 85 roster for 4 years, rather than 5.
With all of that said, if the coaches think that a player should play, they should play. If they want to RS a player, they should RS. It's as simple as that.
It's easy to say that UK should have RSed D Miller. However, if it wasn't for him playing as a jumbo TE, as true FR, against UT, UK's losing streak is probably still ongoing. Kudos to Randy Sanders for playing a WR @ QB & for using D Miller as a jumbo TE.
Ditto for M Johnson. We may not have beaten Clemson, if not for his red zone touchdown, his true FR year. We were actually over matched & struggled to move the ball, but he was hoss enough to punch it in. That TD & the deep home run throw to D Ford were UK's only scores.
Also, a RS would not have prevented RB's from burning M Johnson in pass coverage. And who knew or knows for sure if a guy who was virtually a 5 star, would still be @ UK for his 5th year or if he'd go pro after 3, like R Cobb.
Ditto for Elam. He is the guy who actually helped slow down South Carolina's running game (as a true FR) and IMHO, he was the cause of Spurrier more or less abandoning the run. Before Elam went into the game, SC was running almost at will between the tackles. However, Elam was so big that SC's linemen had problems with him. Elam was actually a difference maker in that game. Don't believe me? Go back and CAREFULLY watch that game. The 2014 game, not the 2015 game.
So the big question is, are wins against UT, Clemson and South Carolina worth burning a RS?
Also, I totally agree that RSing A Boyd & M Newton would likely not have helped them. In fact, it was probably best that they were only taking up a spot on the 85 roster for 4 years, rather than 5.
With all of that said, if the coaches think that a player should play, they should play. If they want to RS a player, they should RS. It's as simple as that.
When Stoops 1st got here, it was necessary to play true freshmen because he inherited a weak roster ftom CJP. Among the biggest reasons CJP left a weak roster was poor player development, including failing to redshirt enough true freshmen. In 2013 and then again in 2014, Stoops played 8 true freshmen. In 2015, Stoops played 7 true freshmen. Improvement of our roster should allow Stoops to redshirt more true freshmen in 2016 and 2017. On several threads, I have explained overwhelming historical evidence why quarterbacks and linemen need redshirts. I am a patient fan, which places me in the minority here. Offensive tackle was 1 of the weakest positions on our 2015 football team, but Tate Leavitt and an improving Kyle Meadows can fix this problem in 2016. If 1 of them gets hurt, then Stoops would have a different problem. Otherwise, Leavitt and Meadows should get it done. There is a fallacy here that Mark Stoops is on the hot seat and must win 6 games. That expresses fan impatience, but there is no evidence to support it. Stoops has a long term contract extension. Barnhart opened the safe to hire Eddie Gran and keep Vince Marrow. All of our football facilities have been modernized. No matter what anyone posts, Stoops is not on the hot seat at this point. But nothing could possibly put Stoops on the hot seat faster than screwing up Landon Young's development, like CJP screwed up Darrian Miller. I am not against playing true freshmen in carefully selected situations. I believe Kash Daniel, Jordan Griffin, Bennie Snell, and Grant McKinness will play in 2016. But they are not linemen. The historical rationale for redshirting all true freshman linemen and quarterbacks is overwhelming, and it means more than stars. Landon Young is a fine prospect who dominates other high school players, even the finest of them, with his long arms and good blocking technique. That won't be enough to handle mature SEC edge rushers. Young is a long, lean athlete. At his peak as a college player, Young will play 30-40 pounds heavier and stronger than he is today. Redshirting Landon Young is a test of Stoops' maturation as a head coach. If he fails this test, it will be at his own peril, and would unnecessarily risk Young's optimal development. I realize most people will disagree with me now because they crave immediate success. But there are no silver bullets in the SEC.
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Yes it is easy to say, because it is the truth. You are presenting a false choice here. It isn't a question of whether good players should play. Everyone knows they should. It is actually a question of developing them into the best players they can be at Kentucky. You may not see it, but every player you cited would have been better off with a redshirt. Poor player development was a huge reason CJP was fired and Stoops was hired. Successful development of players is good for our players, good for our football program, and very good for Stoops' future recruiting. Skipping Darrian Miller's redshirt did not make Kentucky into a bowl team or even a good team that year, but it obviously hurt Darrian's development as a player. Can you seriously argue that Kentucky wouldn't have been a better football team in 2015 with Darrian playing left tackle? LOL! Looking realistically at our most important weakness - offensive tackles - as a 5 year player, Darrian could have been the difference to get us to 6 wins. Skipping Micah Johnson's redshirt clearly hurt his development. As a 5 year player, Micah could have made a bigger difference in the middle of our defense. Micah never made it in the NFL, so you can't argue Micah wouldn't have lasted that long in Lexington. Even in hindsight, you still can't see the overwhelming case for redshirting Elam in 2014? Wow! You can disagree all you want about Boyd and Newton, but most people know that's a goofy argument. Player development will make or break Stoops' coaching career at Kentucky. He recruits like a winner. Development and tactics are the other pieces. This is a test of Stoops' maturation as a coach. Successful football coaches can't afford impatience.
Redshirting Elam would have been great if the coaches thought he would take it serious. Elam had to play to get his attention. If we would have redshirted him he may not have even stuck around for 4 years let alone 5.
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We obviously agree & disagree on certain points and on the points where we disagree, we will just have to agree to disagree & leave it at that.
We obviously agree & disagree on certain points and on the points where we disagree, we will just have to agree to disagree & leave it at that.
Young won't even be here until the summer so you evidently think the coaches will 'hold' the LT spot for him throughout the spring and 'hope' he will be able to handle it in the fall.
IMHO Leavitt should step in this spring and win the LT spot and maintain it going into fall camp. The question then will become is Young that much better than Tate to then move Tate to RT and start Young at LT OR will the coaches begin Young as a RT to get his feet under him and then move him to the left side either next year or when Leavitt leaves. I believe the latter option will occur.
I just can't see the coaches wasting Jackson's year as a backup when we have plenty of other good options available.
I agree With playing guys who are going to play and help win games but I don't like burning a rs for a guy to play 15 or 20 snaps on the oline. Landon is probably top 3 OT the day he shows up on campus. ... play him. Drake might be 3rd oc and 4th og...
The reason all these young guys are gonna run with the ones is so they can see where they are. If they hold on to top 2 spots... play em. If not then they aren't too talented to rs. I'm sure the staff wishes they would of rs'd kg now.
The reason all these young guys are gonna run with the ones is so they can see where they are. If they hold on to top 2 spots... play em. If not then they aren't too talented to rs. I'm sure the staff wishes they would of rs'd kg now.
Miller probably should have been redshirted, and one reason is that we would have, in all likelihood, received that important 5th year from Miller, who would not have been likely to leave early for the NFL. In the case of Young, if he's as good as he is reputed to be, we probably will never see a 5th year, anyway. The question shouldn't be, "are we better off with Young from 2017 to 2020 than we are with Young from 2016 to 2019", because there's a good chance that it's actually going to be a choice between Young from 2016 to 2019 or Young from 2017 to 2019. The question should be, "assuming Leavitt is locked for one tackle position, are we better off in 2016 with Young, or with someone else (Meadows, Mosier, or whoever) at the other position"; and, if Young isn't ready to start, then is it essential that he be available to back-up the starter. I don't know the answer to that question, but I would assume that coaches will know the answer by the start of the season.
If you are addressing me, yes I do rely on known facts above emotion and impatience. You aren't our football coach. Results matter. Our coaches will make these decisions. If they are successful decisions, then our coaches will be successful. Stoops is a 1st time head coach. For Stoops, there are 3 keys to success. Recruiting, player development, game management. Stoops is checking the recruiting box better than anyone could have expected. That leaves the other 2 keys. I will say this once more. Stoops has the support of the school. The quickest way for Stoops to get himself onto the hot seat for real would be to screw up Landon Young's development. If he is gaining savvy from his experiences at Kentucky, Stoops won't take that chance. However, I will admit I'm not sure which way this will end up going, because it must be tempting for Stoops to go ahead and use the best high school player in the class as fast as he can.
That is a false choice. We are free here to type any ridiculous idea without any consequences, but football coaches lose their jobs for making dumb decisions. This isn't basketball. We hear this same rationalization every year from fans who don't appreciate the overwhelming case for redshirting most true freshman football players. In the past, we heard this same argument advanced by fans about Matt Elam, Drew Barker, Darrian Miller, Morgan Newton, Micah Johnson. Even Aaron Boyd. LOL! The overwhelming majority of college football players benefit from getting a redshirt, but a very rare few actually leave for the NFL before their eligibility gets used up. How often does it happen at Kentucky? Tim Couch, Dennis Johnson, Dewayne Robertson, Randall Cobb are the only 4 Kentucky players who have ever left for the NFL before using their eligibility. Once or or twice in each decade, Kentucky loses a player to the NFL after his junior year. But Kentucky has 20 or so new freshmen every year, and lots of them come with great headlines. Based on that, playing most of our highly rated true freshmen due to the fear that they might leave early would be an irrational way of thinking that could sink a coaching staff. The priority is to develop them into the best players they can be, and the best teams they can build, and respect the wishes of 1-2 players every 5-10 years who can leave early for the NFL.
Wrong, this isn't basketball. He wouldn't leave until at least after his 3rd year at the earliest. But it's unlikely he'd come out early. NFL is much tougher than the NBA.
You ask, how often does a player at UK leave early for the NFL? First. you give an incomplete list- I am not going to try to list every player, but I can think of one off the top of my head that you didn't list, Braylon Heard. Whether he should have left early or not is not the issue, but there are more players that have left early than you listed. A better question is, how often does an Alabama, or LSU player, leave early for the NFL? Several Alabama players do it every year, several LSU players do it every year, and Young is more comparable to an Alabama/LSU recruit than a typical UK recruit. As a matter of fact, Young is ranked higher than the vast majority of Alabama/LSU recruits. As far as UK recruits go, he is much more comparable to Couch, D. Johnson, and Robertson, than he is to Elam, Boyd, Barker, and Miller.
I am not saying that we should play Young out of a fear that he might leave early. I am saying, if he can significantly help this team, THIS YEAR, and only if he can do so, and if it's best for him in his own development, then the coaches will do so, rather than plan for a fifth year that may never happen anyway. Again, neither you nor I is in position to make this decision; I guarantee you that Stoops and his staff are going to consider every possible variable and make what they believe to be the right decision. If that's to redshirt Young, you won't hear a single complaint from me.
How many 5 star OL play at other schools their freshmen year? I know I've seem to see freshmen playing at other schools as well.
If he is good enough to be ranked a 5 star then he has the potential to leave for the nfl after 3 years. I'd think if I was the coach I'd much rather play my investment for 3 seasons vs 2.
Lamar Jackson sure didn't seem like he needed to redshirt.
I think most of it relies on how well prepared the kid is before he enrolls. How good the strength and conditioning coach is and the ability of the OL coach is at teaching their skill.
Of course with not even seeing how out offense plays you cannot really get a grasp on who is ready or not.
If we throw a bunch of dink and dunk passes then I'm sure a younger kid can cope. If we throw deep balls all day (ha
and he has to fend off quick DE's for 4-5 seconds on multiple plays then he could be In trouble.
If he is good enough to be ranked a 5 star then he has the potential to leave for the nfl after 3 years. I'd think if I was the coach I'd much rather play my investment for 3 seasons vs 2.
Lamar Jackson sure didn't seem like he needed to redshirt.
I think most of it relies on how well prepared the kid is before he enrolls. How good the strength and conditioning coach is and the ability of the OL coach is at teaching their skill.
Of course with not even seeing how out offense plays you cannot really get a grasp on who is ready or not.
If we throw a bunch of dink and dunk passes then I'm sure a younger kid can cope. If we throw deep balls all day (ha
and he has to fend off quick DE's for 4-5 seconds on multiple plays then he could be In trouble.He was right you are wrong, a player can leave after 3 years so a redshirt year he doesn't play, freshmen year he plays and then his sophmore year.
So he was here for 3 played for 2. I'd much rather have a talent like that playing for 3 years than stick him in my back pocket.
Good post. I, too, think that L Young could end up in a category with T Couch, D Robertson & D Johnson. D Robertson not only played DT as true FR, he played very well. Robertson was ranked a lot lower than L Young out of HS, but he was a lottery pick after only 3 years @ UK. M Johnson could possibly have been added to that list if he'd been willing to play DE or bulked up to DT rather than MLB.
One thing that has not been considered is how well C J Conrad performed as a blocking FB/TE, as a true FR. If Conrad could be as effective as he was as a true freshman blocker, then I see no reason why a 295+ lb. Young can't be equally as effective as a blocker. Yes, they are 2 different positions, but how many true FR TE's @ UK have ever been as effective at blocking (not pass catching) as Conrad @ UK? If Conrad is an exception to the rule, why can't L Young be one?
FWIW, that is exactly what Jameis Winston & Johnny Manziel did. RSed, then played 2 & then went Pro. Does not happen often, but it does happen.
Actually I'm right as stated above. Guy has to stay 3 years which is what I said. If one of those is a RS year, fine then play 2 more years. 1 + 2= 3 don't you know.
Fact: I am not our football coach (please help me stop those rumors)
Fact: Our coaches will make these decisions (again, not me)
Fact: Stoops is a first time coach
Fact: there is one key to success (win)
Fact: win games and Landon Young can transfer to UL and Stoops will be fine. This crap about Stoops's success being tied to any particular player IS NOT FACT. Let's. Stick to facts.
Fact: if Landon is the best tackle, not playing him is a chance. Playing him would be the right thing. Every coach should be tempted to play his best players. (Everything here is fact)
You're right that people state obvious facts & mix them in with their conjectures to make those more factual in appearance.