Those Commies really could make some guns.
I may have to deal for his Hungarian Hi Power.
Which I'm surprised none has mentioned Hi Powers or clones like CZ.
Those of you that have handguns for home
- Thread starter kevcat
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I may have to deal for his Hungarian Hi Power.
Which I'm surprised none has mentioned Hi Powers or clones like CZ.
nah . . . gotta be an FAL. Even appears to have carry handle shifted over, above magazine, sloping slightly exactly how one might in an FAL.It said Diemaco C8 in story.
I don't have a clue.
My understanding is that at JSOC and the CIA Ground Branch, they base everything off the Glock 19 for training and if you get to the varsity level then you know enough that you can choose whatever the hell you want because you are the best. This is absolutely not from first hand knowledge.
Could be. The guys I know recently retired.....so, we're talking about >10 yrs when they went through BUDs, etc.
All three of these guys are highest on Sigs.....particularly the 226 (or 220 if you like .45). For some reason, maybe it was training, they just preferred the SA/DA over a DA striker design. They certainly acknowledge Glock as a brand, but feel that their reputation is artificially inflated more than some other brands.
For example, here is a very paraphrased conversation that I had with one of the guys about a yr ago.
Me: "Why do you guys hate Glocks?"
John Doe: "We don't. We used to have access to whatever we wanted, more or less. If we wanted a special 226, we'd order it.....send it off to the pit (armorer).....tell them what we want....and we'd have it within about a wk or two. Basically, all the slug (armorer....because they were slow) would do is polish the trigger, do some mild frame work, and we'd have what we wanted. If we ordered a Glock, he'd have to do major frame work, change the sights, make significant changes to the trigger and mag well, change out the slide and mag release......and you'd get it back in about 6 months collecting dust in the cages while you were deployed (he was joking).
Me: "So, it was basically a time frame and work thing? What about reliability?"
John Doe: "We can get what ever we want and have a team of slugs (armorers) that can crank out some neat stuff. Everything we have is reliable."
I've hung out with these guys on several occasions over the last several yrs. Plus, the more classes I take.......the more I get around guys who teach classes......work as police or military.....guys who have been "in the ****".....etc. The more I learn, I've come to realize that there are some really good options these days. The discussion doesn't start and stop with Glock.
(full disclosure. It sounds like I'm bashing Glock. My main carry is a 43. My heavy carry is a 23. My ultra light carry is a S&W 638.)
We have cameras, 4 dogs, and 11 weapons and even though I am 61 I am still capable of defending myself physically. 6th degree Shotokan, 5th degree Kyokushin and 3rd degree Tang Soo Do which I train in at least three days a week. My wall of certification:
Wonhung Lo 3rd degree
Yes. There is that. And I'm thankful for what I've learned, from you and this thread. I have an affected model. Moreover, I can replicate scenario described by FN, where they state it has only been in lab testing (no reason to doubt that), where if the slide is moved back a slight amount while the trigger is depressed, the weapon does not fire as designed, but then return to battery may cause it to fire. I have only done this dry firing, and it occurs with full pressure retained on trigger. I won't attempt it with rounds, but I'm confident I could replicate the condition as briefly sequenced in the last of the videos, Arizona piece provided earlier. Thank you for that.
I should also be a glass 1/2 full poster, and appreciate my Glock slander, as were it not for that this very useful knowledge may not have come my way. At least not as timely. I've informed a couple of friends. Theirs are more recently produced. Corrected and unaffected.
Already have an email back from FN. Shipping papers being sent. Had to give them more personal info than I cared to. I've put maybe 500-600 rounds through it. Never a single problem. And it is the one pistol with which I've had the most success teaching myself to double-tap. Still not anything but very average at that sort of thing anyway. And that's not being rushed, getting doubles on barely more than 1/2 the attempts, 16-inch plate at 35-40 ft. So probably sub-average. I've watched shooters (yes, with Glocks) double tap 1/2 again that distance as fast as they can shoot and never miss.
Gorgeous picture FEG hi power someone posted. Seen a few. Beautiful blue steel on some of those things
Just shoot that sob more. You’ll get better. Whether Glock or hi point, buy cases of ammo and figure it out.
I’d be kind of pissed FN didn’t notify me of that problem though. Reminds me of that HK meme...”because you suck and we hate you”...referring to them hating civilians.
An HK armorer during HK Sales Day told some customers, after one of them brought him a VP9 that malfunctioned, that he wouldnt buy any HK pistol made after the Mark 23. I don’t even know what that is, but if an armorer at a sales event doesnt like the pistols he’s selling, well...f them.
Yea, I think there are a lot of advantages to DA/SA pistols like single action trigger, and being safer to operate.
I also think its easier and cheaper to master a Glock with its simple trigger. Once you get into the Glock, why switch? Unless you have some money and time to invest in other platforms.
But if I professionally operated for a living, I damn sure would shoot everything and use every resource available to me to find the absolute greatest combat pistol for my needs. Would probably be some modified Glock or something that costs a lot more than I’m willing to buy.
I’d be kind of pissed FN didn’t notify me of that problem though. Reminds me of that HK meme...”because you suck and we hate you”...referring to them hating civilians.
An HK armorer during HK Sales Day told some customers, after one of them brought him a VP9 that malfunctioned, that he wouldnt buy any HK pistol made after the Mark 23. I don’t even know what that is, but if an armorer at a sales event doesnt like the pistols he’s selling, well...f them.
Yea, I think there are a lot of advantages to DA/SA pistols like single action trigger, and being safer to operate.
I also think its easier and cheaper to master a Glock with its simple trigger. Once you get into the Glock, why switch? Unless you have some money and time to invest in other platforms.
But if I professionally operated for a living, I damn sure would shoot everything and use every resource available to me to find the absolute greatest combat pistol for my needs. Would probably be some modified Glock or something that costs a lot more than I’m willing to buy.
colt 1911 series 80 on my hip right now as i type. also a Glock lover.
there is no substitute for caliber/knock down power.
as others have stated; train, practice, and then practice some more. ammunition is cheap right now, so stock up!!!
there is no substitute for caliber/knock down power.
as others have stated; train, practice, and then practice some more. ammunition is cheap right now, so stock up!!!
You may already know the information in the video but it's kind of an interesting video.
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You’re probably right about the SA/DA advantages.....plus the military has such a lengthy history with them. Perhaps some of it is stubbornness and tradition.
Also agree on the simplicity of striker use compared to SA/DA. Just much less to operate.
As far as “why go with something else?” Cost and performance. As you (and I) have said, you buy Glock for the reliability. But does the average Joe need the difference in reliability from a really good competitor?
****Let’s add numbers (these numbers are totally made up just to illustrate a point)****
Let's say that in the 90's, Glock reliability was rated a 90. The next closest competitor was a 75. There was a large difference in Glock reliability vs others. Therefore, back then the choice was much, much clearer.
But let's fast forward to recent times. Let's compare 3 guns.....for simplicity sake, let's say the Glock 17/19, VP9, and M&P 2.0.
Brand reliability performance feel
Glock 93 85 80
M&P 89 89 88
VP9 85 93 93
The choice these days is much less clear and basically comes down to personal preference.
Performance - Most people (whether untrained or trained, experienced or inexperienced) will be able to shoot the VP9 and 2.0 better than the Glock. The barrels, triggers, ergo all are better with them. So, let's say it's a defensive situation. If a person can shoot a VP9 grouping of 6-8" in a high stress defensive situation......but can only shoot a 10-12" group with a Glock in the same situation.......is that worth a slight/mild trade in reliability? That's the debate.....and it's valid.
Feel - When I grab a stock Glock 17 it feels like I'm gripping a 2x4......the slide release is small and sharp.....the recoil is snappy. The M&P feels better in almost every way. The VP9 is ridiculously comfortable. If a person is more comfortable with a firearm, they are more likely to practice with it, therefore perform better with it. It's a debate worth having.
The Glock might have the edge in reliability, but is it enough to matter? First you have to figure out what the reliability gets you......for the average person. The vast majority of people are not soldiers or law enforcement. They are not wading through swamps, sweating their balls off in a dessert, dropping their firearms in the mud, dropping their sidearms after vaulting over a fence. By far, most people use their handguns in a home environment or at the range. If you were going to war where you might fight with a crazy mudded up gun, then Glock might be the best choice.......but many, many law enforcement agencies run M&P w/o having reliability issues.....and the demands of law enforcement outweigh the demands of the average Joe.
So, really, among the better brands.....among the models who have been out for a while and had bugs worked out......it comes down to personal preference and individual performance. But that's for each person to balance out for themselves.......what's most important to the individual.
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^ As you stated, if the gun feels good in your hand, then you will have confidence in it and be more accurate with it, which means you will practice more. For me the most important thing is can I hit what I aim at. With my Taurus’s, I can. I can put a full mag in silhouette chest and head from 21 feet.
And if you practice a lot with it and it doesn't fail you in practice, it'll probably do fine in the even of an emergency.
I also am very wary of when people say, "brand x failed......I've seen it myself." I've been to many courses and have heard many instructors lecture about reliability. By far the instructors mention that these days >90% of the failures are operator issues.......
--poor grip - which includes limp wristing, slide interference, etc.
--poor parts - getting cruddy magazines or installing magazine extensions, trigger or other internal mods
--poor ammo
Often the brand or the model gets blamed for reliability when it's most often not it's fault.
I don’t agree. The Glock is far superior than the SW. everyone is imitating a Glock, but none can produce like the Glock.
That’s not to say that they are ****** guns, but they’re not a Glock. They don’t have the stamina of a Glock, longevity, options, or magazines. It’s still a very wide gap between Glock and the competitors.
Also, people get far too caught up in comfort. There are several ways to make a Glock more comfortable. Manufacturers have pushed this idea that you need to be comfortable above all and it’s really had an effect on the market. The reason? Because the big issue people had with Glock is Comfort, and that’s how other polymers attacked the issue.
I can’t see why anyone would pass up a Glock for the competitors when all they’re doing anyway is trying their best to imitate the Glock. With the customization options and Magazines straight from the Glock factory, it’s just a no brainer to me.
My buddy recently purchased a M&P and barf. Slide stopper, unattractive frame.......he’s already having to manipulate parts to work how they need to.
For the money, I’d go with the XDS above SW. I’m a gun enthusiast and have been my entire life. I’ve seen more issues with SW polymers than any. Like I said in my experience I’d definitely go Springfield first because of several reasons. But if you want the best and want to avoid all of this nonsense, buy the Glock. Also far easier to clean, operate, it’s safer, and more resilient.
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Hey, to each their own. And like I said, I'm a Glock fan too. But as they say, "fan is short for fanatic." There is an over-inflated bias that comes with things. And although there is no way to quantify your or my opinion, the gap isn't nearly as much as you claim. Not any more......but it certainly used to be.
As far as comfort, sure, there are ways to improve Glocks. My beef with them is why should we have to? There is no reason why a base Glock should come with those sights. There's also no reason why they couldn't make the frame more ergonomic. It won't affect function......if others can do it cheaply from the factory. It's an absolute given that when I buy a new Glock that I already purchase Talon Grips and new sights.....and I might have to do a trigger job on it.
Whereas, take the VP9 for example. From the factory, nothing needs to be done. The sights, the grip, the trigger, etc. All are great. The only reason why I don't have one is that it was first introduced in 2014. I'm going to wait until they work the bugs out and get the track record squared away before I think about it.
It's something they stole off the 1911's from back in the day. I can take it or leave it. It's never done anything positive nor negative.
I have a 1st gen XD. Darn thing is a tank. Never had a failure and I'm well over 7,000 rds. Now Springfield certainly has been in a little hot water with the gun community for some political stuff recently, it has developed a nice reputation.
I would definitely go XDS instead of SW because for the money Springfield makes a damn good polymer.
As far as safeties go, Glock all day ( trying not to be that guy).
I edited another paragraph above. You hit it late.
Again I just don’t agree. Some Manufacturers pay glock simply because they keep trying to knock them off and push the lines of the patent. Why would anyone want a knock off Glock when they can just have the real thing?
The comfort issue is widely overblown because of manufacturers trying to gain an edge. There are many ways, many ways to make a Glock more comfortable. If someone has an issue with having to do anything to the grip to improve comfort and are willing to pass on the Glock because of that, 9/10 they don’t understand what they’re doing. And gun shops have routinely pushed this message because the markup on New Glocks isn’t what it is for other manufacturers both new and used. Yes gun shops lie to their customers everyday about this issue. I’m good friends with several shop owners who carry Glock and lead people toward other guns first because of profit.
I will never argue that Glock sights are legit. But that’s how Glock is able to sell a gun that magnificent for less than 550 dollars. The Glock itself is worth more than that when you consider the market of all polymers. Glock tells customers to upgrade the sights upon purchase if they’re competition shooters or regular shooters. Those sights are only made to keep cost down where anyone can protect themselves with a Glock if they’re not regular shooters. It’s really not a problem when people understand what they’re for. If Glock upgrades the sights out of the box, it cuts the buyers market in half because they will then go for an average of 700 + dollars especially for new Gens and that’s just not going to happen.
Glock gives a rich man’s gun to a poor man through these means. It’s too expensive of a gun by itself.
So other manufacturers improve the comfort, offer better sights, and hope people bite on it, and they do.
But in my experience, and I’ve got lots of it, the devils in the details. Glock is the best and when you consider reliability of not only the guns, but the magazines, the options ect Glock is just not worth turning down and far too many people do.
One thing often overlooked is the magazines. I could talk for an hour about just that.
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Exactly. That said, I do have a Taurus 380 that jams every time. So there is good snd bad in everything. That 380 never sees the light of day.
I’m holding a Glock in my hand at this very moment.
The power I possess from knowing I wield such control over my block, is because of this Glock.
The power I possess from knowing I wield such control over my block, is because of this Glock.
What you got in the 19X?
Personally, I loved it. I own one and have bought another to cut up.
Don’t know why so many want the lower to be a 17. It’s not made for that lol. Now that they know how many want it they’ll do it down the road but I love the 19X.
Military wanted it too, and it definitely performed the best, but cost. That Sig was made dirt cheap, hope they never have to use them.
Ford didn't invent the car, but it put it on the map.....and certainly revolutionized the industry. Then everyone played copy and tried to out-do each other.
Does that mean we should only buy Fords?
And comfort isn't just for feel, but for function. My favorite Glock I have is a 19 that I sent off to Mod 1 (which I highly, highly recommend to anyone listening). My high access thumbs forward grip is sooo much better with my custom 19. There's a reason why so many get custom stippling, undercutting, finger grooves removed, trigger jobs, shelf cuts, etc.
If I were looking to buy a 19 slide on a 17 frame, I think I'd go with the 45 rather than the 19X. The 45 comes with front serrations and doesn't have the pinky cutout (which I hate).
I'm still undecided whether or not I'm sold on the 19 slide on the 17 frame though. I'm certainly intrigued to try it.
I certainly love what Glock did with Gen 5 though. Bye finger grooves....and the trigger is much, much better. I still hate the pinky cut out though.
I dont understand the 19x. The hardest part to conceal is usually the frame, not the slide/barrel. That's just me though.
I think the Glock functions just fine.
The Ford comparison would work if Ford was actually the best but it’s not. Nobody is imitating the Ford, everyone is imitating the Glock as close as they can without infringement and sometimes they can’t do that.
I always work on my Glocks except for ones I leave alone, like my first. Glock has an excellent customization department and many people play with them, it’s not always because they need to.
I mean really the best grip and most effective imo is a sandpaper style. But not everyone does that because that’s not the main point.
Guns like anything else are about marketing. In the details, Glock just offers more and it’s the best polymer to own. My opinion.
If Glocks presented a problem to me in a few minor areas, I wouldn’t blow it up. I’d just customize it slightly.
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It was not made to necessarily be a conceal carry weapon. It was made to government specifications to be awarded the Army contract. It out performed everyone, and was only declined because of price.
I don’t conceal the 19X and not sure why anyone would try.
Ok, I'll go with another analogy. The AK vs the AR.
The AK is the standard for reliability. Till this day it's still better than the AR.
The AR edges the AK in accuracy, ergonomics.......
Does that mean that the AR sucks that that it should be a no brainer to buy a AK? No, the AR started out rocky, but has proven to be a really good option as a rifle. Even though the AK still has it in reliability, it's not like the AR is trash. A well maintained AR is plenty reliable enough.
Well in this case Raider, I’d say Glock is the piston driven AR that married the two ideas together!!
Glock wins again.
Correct.
The argument I heard about the 19x/45 was that a shorter slide allows for quicker sight acquisition......and because you have less reciprocating mass (because the slide is smaller), the recoil is softened.....thus improving accuracy and follow up shots.
Finally got a chance to view this video. Thanks for sharing that. No, I did not know all of that information. I understood previously how we (US Army) ignored the FAL's superior performance to the M14, but I was not aware the FAL then was built for a 7mm chambering.
Also, I'm a little confused about the presenter's suggestion that the hi power was under initial development at the same time that nato was pursuing a common ammunition. That ain't right. Maybe he is referring to one of the hi power's other chamberings. Just not real sure what he was getting at there. Hi power first produced in the 30s. Maybe I missed a switch in timelines, don't think so. Otherwise, very informative. Makes me want an FAL. I've drooled on the DSA website many times.
Yea I mean I look at it like, as a Glock fan, it’s cool. I think one thing that’s true for people that like Glock or don’t is it’s nit picked unlike any other weapon.
It wasn’t made for traditional carry.
I am faster with the 19X than the traditional 17. Pretty sure I’m faster than the 19 too.
had they not released that gun to the public, people would have had a **** fit knowing full well they wouldn’t be pleased if they did. So Glock threw the collectors the gun. That’s how I see it. They weren’t putting out the next best carry Glock.
Again too the mags. They are gorgeously made and highly effective. Can’t replicate Glock factory Mags and these are above regular capacity.
But yea really cool gun. For a novice or one time gun owner, I would not recommend it. For that, just a 19 that feels ok and 5 big sticks
Lol. Awesome retort.....love it
What I love is that back in the '80s, '90s, and early 00's......we didn't have options. If you wanted a striker fired gun, Glock was so far ahead of everyone that choices were very, very poor. Now-a-days we have options. It's really cool....and it's a win, win. Want a Glock because of it's track record?.....fine, go forth and prosper. Want some crazy smooth?....get a VP9 or PPQ and enjoy life. Did you grow up with your dad's S&W wheel gun and love Smith?.....Great, they got you covered.
And I love that other brands are getting into the mix to compete......now, certainly some aren't very good and some are promising.....but it's cool. Canik, CZ, etc, etc.
A high point has killed men.
Shooting more, and more regularly. That helps. And it is certainly a rewarding thing, hearing those doubles. It would be nice to claim it as a legitimate shooting skill. Can actually do it best with a Mark IV ruger but that's not what those pistols are meant for so . . .
It's been a very long time since I was in the military. I'm not that "old". Several years too young to have served in Vietnam but old enough that all of the senior NCOs were hardened Vietnam vets. And I mean "hardened". Not all of them "got out". The best of them did not. Believe that. The one I respected the most said this to me at the .45 caliber range at Ft. Bragg one day: "quit shooting that GD thing like you don't wanna pick up the MFing brass or you gonna be picking up all the MFing brass!"
Hahaha
Thanks for your service, man.
Also, Glock offers veteran discounts up until Veterans Day. You can get blue label priced glocks, which are priced 75-100 less than normal. In case you wanna sell that FN...
There’s a price list at the bottom of this page... http://www.gssfonline.com/GSSF_Pistol_Purchase_Program_Information.pdf
I have a Glock 26. Still it’s my SW .38 revolver, basically an antique I might go to first. Inherited from my dad who taught me to shoot with it. Doesn’t have the stopping power of the Glock, but it has never once failed to fire.
ah, nothing to it. Those were good times back then.
Just googled the Blue Label Program. Interesting. Are all glock dealers "blue label program" dealers? Appreciate you sharing all this excellent information. I'll bet a lot of veterans have bought glocks without knowing they could have got a discount. https://us.glock.com/en/buy/blue-label-program
After I get it back with all those brand new internals? [winking] I'll probably keep it. Probably have to buy, I don't know, something . . . while it's gone. I'm hearing a lot of good things about the VP9 on this "message board" I visit from time to time (ha).
The HK VP9 and the Walther PPQ probably have the best ergonomics and triggers of all the non-custom mass produced strikers out there. I would also like to include the Springfield XDm into the group due to the trigger and match barrel.....but the ergo is a half step down from the others.
Few things about the VP9
-the original version has a lever mag release. Some love it, but I button releases because all my other pistols are button release. They now produce a button release.
-it was first released in 2014....so there might be some bugs still to be worked out.
-it’s expensive. Anything HK is more expensive than it needs to be.
-some YouTube heroes have found the VP9 unreliable if you bury it in mud or drop it in a creek. But once you clean it, it works fine. Military Arms Channel (known as MAC) has some of the videos. It’s worth noting that MAC thought it extremely reliable and impressive.....enough to carry it for a while. But has quit since the muddy creek test. Also, every gun fails MAC’s muddy tests.....just some fail more easily than others.