Thoughts from Evanston yesterday

Aug 5, 2010
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Generally, I think your post makes sense until I got to this line. I think you are right that this is the approach CCC has taken most recently. I think the results show that this strategy is a miserable failure.

I would argue this wasn't the strategy CCC took with his first team. He got solid players where he had a plan in place for how they would fit. BMac, Lindsay, Law and Pardon are really nice complimentary pieces. He then got away from that approach in his get a bunch of tall four-star wings that don't really mesh recruiting plan and we've seen this team get worse every year since.

i don't think this is necessarily the case. BMac decommited from a lower tier school and NU got lucky that he wasn't "recruited" by big dogs all along. they were able to jump in and seems like CCC and Bmac hit it off. Lindsey only become a real option after iowa pulled his offer after a leg injury. skelly was a 6'7 "4". Law was the one true target.

honestly the major difference between the 2 "teams" and the type level of recruit he is building is - 1) an all-conference PG in Bmac and 2) a heart and soul kid like lumpkin.
 

TheC

All-Conference
May 29, 2001
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i don't think this is necessarily the case. BMac decommited from a lower tier school and NU got lucky that he wasn't "recruited" by big dogs all along. they were able to jump in and seems like CCC and Bmac hit it off. Lindsey only become a real option after iowa pulled his offer after a leg injury. skelly was a 6'7 "4". Law was the one true target.

honestly the major difference between the 2 "teams" and the type level of recruit he is building is - 1) an all-conference PG in Bmac and 2) a heart and soul kid like lumpkin.
This is a debate without a real definitive correct answer, so all of this is speculation.... You may be right that the individual pieces that we ended up with on that first team involved some chance as it probably always does, and maybe CCC dumblucked his way into that first team, but it appeared to at least fit a cogent strategy. Now, he may have had the same strategy for his next teams and the pieces just didn't fall into place. Thus, he said yes to the best kids he could get regardless of how they fit into a plan. I would argue that maybe an overall organizational plan is more important than the star rankings of individual players.
 

willycat

Junior
Jan 11, 2005
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This is a debate without a real definitive correct answer, so all of this is speculation.... You may be right that the individual pieces that we ended up with on that first team involved some chance as it probably always does, and maybe CCC dumblucked his way into that first team, but it appeared to at least fit a cogent strategy. Now, he may have had the same strategy for his next teams and the pieces just didn't fall into place. Thus, he said yes to the best kids he could get regardless of how they fit into a plan. I would argue that maybe an overall organizational plan is more important than the star rankings of individual players.
Law's father said that Vic wouldn't have come to NU if they hadn't made a coaching change.. Wouldn't call that dumb-luck.
 

TheC

All-Conference
May 29, 2001
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Law's father said that Vic wouldn't have come to NU if they hadn't made a coaching change.. Wouldn't call that dumb-luck.
I was referring to the points haywood was making about BMac and Scottie and saying it kind of tongue-in-cheek.
 

GatoLouco

Sophomore
Nov 13, 2019
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I would argue that maybe an overall organizational plan is more important than the star rankings of individual players.

I more than agree with you when you say there's not a definitive answer here.

And that's why my argument, or more what I wonder, if it's not all about getting the highest ranked possible players, regardless of fit. And complementing with lower ranked players as best as you can. Lindsey, BMac, Buie, Pardon, just to name some, were all quite low ranked players.

Now, this strategy is best aided, or dare I say even requires, a coach who can adapt the style of play to the roster. And not one who tries to cram a style of play into a roster not suited for it. And that's where I don't see CC having shown any talent to excel at. Example, another coach, last year, might have made the offense run mostly through sets designed to get the ball to Pardon down low. We had no slashers. Still we played him as usual, top of the key, setting screens, dribble hand offs.

Unorthodox teams exist a lot. Often more teams playing small ball than anything else. Creighton or Villanova come to mind. Maybe not the greatest examples. But it's hard to see 1 through 5 in those teams.
 

hoosboot

All-American
Nov 7, 2001
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Lots of interesting thought there. And, bear in mind, I am probably one of the most vocal critics of CC's decisions.

Still, I don't see the situation exactly as you do. I like the analogy of a coach being a lot like running a medium sized business. Build a team over time. But I think you are overlooking what kind of business he is running.

I believe you are thinking he runs a business that is profitable, and has the ability of recruiting decent talent. Say that business is a law office or something like that. It pays competitively, makes good choices on who to hire. Has challenges, but can execute on a vision of what it wants. And, most importantly, can more or less easily find the human capital it needs.

I believe CC is not running that kind of business. I believe he is running more of a retail operation. I say this because retail is a world I know fairly well. In such world, you do not offer very attractive work. You offer mostly $10/hour work that is not fun. Often work entails back breaking hours and hours of throwing freight onto shelves. Even at a manager level, it's not very attractive. It has enormous amounts of stress. Employees steal a lot, don't show for work, your talent pool comes from a socially challenged background where lives are chaotic. And, in the end, if you find someone reliable, who shows up for work, does not steal, that is good enough. You take the best you can get. Because there are not that many people wanting to work for you.

Bringing it back to NU bball. We can't aim to recruit from the entire "market". Most kids are not eligible to play for us. We have an horrendous track record. We have some good points, we offer great education, we have decent facilities, great city... We win on the front against a lot of other programs. But we are not competing with mid majors. We are competing with the big boys. Our competition for recruiting is fierce. So what is the best strategy? hard to figure out.

You hear the stories of how Rutgers built its current team. Hard nosed kids. You hear how Brad Stevens built the Butler teams, where attitude was far more important in recruiting than talent. But are we in a position of executing on that when our recruiting base is so small? Probably not.

So what do you do? For the most part, and in most cases, you are probably better off following the principle that if you find a good recruit, you take it. Regardless of position or need. That is not to say you do not try to balance the team. Point guard story, bla, bla, bla. You need a couple of big guys, bla, bla, bla... But for the most part, you can get a good prospect, you have to take him, because truth is that you don't get many chances at top 150 players. Maybe over time that can change. One can dream.

Wow, this got long. And, in the end, it is all summed by the inevitable conclusion, over and over again: it always goes back to admissions

You guys make interesting points. I love the comparables conversation. And I agree that we are more of a retail operation than a small business and that it poses a problem. If we want to be successful, we need to be more of a Chick-Fil-A franchise than a crappy convenience store. We can't just pick any person willing to work for us. We have to pick the right ones, train them diligently in our core philosophies, and keep them around for a while to advance in our organization.

While admissions is a hurdle, I don't agree that it is THE hurdle. THE hurdle is that we haven't been doing a good enough job of mixing the right talent within a core philosophy. The talent difference between a Top 125-150 player and a Top 200-300 player is often insubstantial. We still need to nab those Top 150 guys because they often get there because of their high ceiling, but just as importantly we need to hit on the right guys. I'm hopeful that we are addressing that moving forward after a cycle of recruiting misses.
 

stpaulcat

Senior
May 29, 2001
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It's always darkest--just before total black.

If you think about it, that could be a positive.
 
Aug 5, 2010
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I more than agree with you when you say there's not a definitive answer here.

And that's why my argument, or more what I wonder, if it's not all about getting the highest ranked possible players, regardless of fit. And complementing with lower ranked players as best as you can. Lindsey, BMac, Buie, Pardon, just to name some, were all quite low ranked players.

Now, this strategy is best aided, or dare I say even requires, a coach who can adapt the style of play to the roster. And not one who tries to cram a style of play into a roster not suited for it. And that's where I don't see CC having shown any talent to excel at. Example, another coach, last year, might have made the offense run mostly through sets designed to get the ball to Pardon down low. We had no slashers. Still we played him as usual, top of the key, setting screens, dribble hand offs.

Unorthodox teams exist a lot. Often more teams playing small ball than anything else. Creighton or Villanova come to mind. Maybe not the greatest examples. But it's hard to see 1 through 5 in those teams.

i don't think small can be successful in the big ten game in game out - unless your small ball is a pardon style 6'8 center

successful big ten teams have:
a very good pg and a very good PF or C
and almost always they are old

when we were good we had bmac, pardon AND lumpkin - and while none of those guys were highly ranked. they were OLD and played together for 3 years
 

Styre

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Oct 14, 2004
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when we were good we had bmac, pardon AND lumpkin - and while none of those guys were highly ranked. they were OLD and played together for 3 years

Those three players played together for two years, during which one of them was a true FR/SO.
 
Aug 5, 2010
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Those three players played together for two years , during which one of them was a true FR/SO.

the team was old. when we were good in 2016 it was year 3 playing together for everyone besides pardon and brown. and lumpkin was a program glue guy that NU hasn't seen since

lumpkin (28 mpg) - 5th year
taphorn (12 mpg) - 4th year
law (32 mpg), skelly (17 mpg), bmac (34 mpg), lindsey (30 mpg) - 3rd year
pardon (30 mpg) brown (14 mpg) - 2nd year

ash - 4 mpg
benson - 8 mpg
 

Styre

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Oct 14, 2004
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the team was old. when we were good in 2016 it was year 3 playing together for everyone besides pardon and brown. and lumpkin was a program glue guy that NU hasn't seen since

My mistake, I thought you were talking about the PG/PF/C, not the team as a whole.
 
Aug 5, 2010
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My mistake, I thought you were talking about the PG/PF/C, not the team as a whole.

no - i think they were very similar to psu this year. very old. played together for several year. a stud glue guy in lamar stephens. solid shooting wings.
 

docrugby1

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Jun 16, 2010
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I went to my granddaughter’s third grade coed basketball game rather than going to see the Wildcats. She scored a key basket. Sounds like I made a great decision. I will be back on Thursday and hope for a better game from the Cats.

2-0 wins are always exciting