Travis Graf Tweet

[JumperJack]

Now that facts and reason have come into this thread, we quickly see why the left wants to ban facts, reason, and anything resembling free speech as “white supremacy”.

As painful as it is going to be, there will be no progress for black people in this country unless we start talking about the disproportionate amount of crime committed by black men. We’ve danced around it for a long, long time but it has to start and it would preferable if black conservatives led the way. Until we can openly talk about problems in culture and values, this won’t stop.

 

[LineSkiCat14]

You realize WAPO agrees that black people are disproportionately more likely to be killed by police, right?

Lol, you realize all of this is literally happening in Trumps America, right? It's kind of hard to blame this on democrats when Republicans control the country.

Also, I am not sure if you have seen the reports or not, but for the first 2 nights of the RNC, it is a few million viewers below the DNC last week. That is really problematic for someone who is banking on the enthusiasm of his base. Not only are they not watching, he doesn't appear to be gaining with any other voters. It is also somewhat troubling considering he is literally the reality TV star and hired his Apprentice producers to run the RNC broadcast. Trump isn't happy to say the least.

Blaming republicans for blacks being killed. Lol. Remind me which presidency Trayvon got popped under?

The cities where all this crime happens are under democrat machines for decades.

 

[Lead Belly]

Because they stupidly don’t follow cops commands when caught committing a crime?

Really? What command did Philando Castille not obey? Tamir Rice? George Floyd? Breonna Taylor? Botham Jean? Eric Garner? And so many others?

Since when did not obeying equate to a death sentence. Last time I checked, I don't think cops are the judge, jury and executioner.

 

[Lead Belly]

Blaming republicans for blacks being killed. Lol. Remind me which presidency Trayvon got popped under?

The cities where all this crime happens are under democrat machines for decades.

Did I blame the president for their deaths or did I criticize the messaging that this is what another administration would look like while it's literally happening under his?

We can play the whataboutism game, but I don't recall the kind of mass protest, rioting, looting and destruction under Obama. I also seem to recall reported acts of racial discrimination dropping significantly under Obama as well.

You might want to do a little research. Tulsa, OK; Beaumont, TX; Lubbock, TX; Shreveport, LA; Corpus christi, TX; Mobile, AL, Anchorage, AL are among the top rated cities for crime, particularly violent crime in America. They are all Republican controlled. Contrary to what you have been told, crime is a problem in democratic and republican cities. And it's also a problem nationally, not just isolated to certain cities.

 

[Gassy_Knowls]

Really? What command did Philando Castille not obey? Tamir Rice? George Floyd? Breonna Taylor? Botham Jean? Eric Garner? And so many others?

Since when did not obeying equate to a death sentence. Last time I checked, I don't think cops are the judge, jury and executioner.

boo hoo

 

[hmt5000]

Blaming republicans for blacks being killed. Lol. Remind me which presidency Trayvon got popped under?

The cities where all this crime happens are under democrat machines for decades.

Or Mike Brown with "hands up don't shoot". Obamas own DOJ said that was bunk and the cop acted according to the law. 6 years later and nba players are still bringing up that incident like it was a murder. Dude cracked a cops eye socket and tried to steal his pistol.

Dude in Chicago was waving a pistol at people and cops showed up. He pointed the gun at cops and got shot.... the same people who called the cops because a dude was waving a gun around at them started rioting because they killed him. If the cops piss you off so bad then quit calling them and just live with the **** you seem to not actually have a problem with.

 

[hmt5000]

Or how about the Kenosha police shooting.... Originally they said he was breaking up a fight and the cops just went at him....

According to the audio obtained by Madison365, someone called police to report that Blake was at her home and wasn’t supposed to be, and that he had taken her keys and was refusing to give them back. A dispatcher relayed this message to patrol officers at about 5:11 pm Sunday.

A warrant for Jacob Blake's arrest was issued against Jacob Blake, but it's unclear if police were aware of it when they shot the 29-year-old Black man on Sunday.

Prosecutors in Kenosha County, Wisconsin charged Blake, 29, with third-degree sexual assault, trespassing and disorderly conduct in connection with domestic abuse last month, according to The Kenosha News. An arrest warrant for Blake was issued on July 6.

The newspaper reported that a woman living in the 2800 block of 40th Street told police in May that Blake, her ex-boyfriend, had come into her home and taken her car keys and vehicle. She also said he had touched her sexually without consent.


Supporters have said the charges filed against Blake last month should not be used to justify the shooting. "It doesn't matter," a man who attended a news conference given by the Blake family on Tuesday afternoon yelled out, according to The Kenosha News.

Lawyers for Mr Blake said he had been trying to "de-escalate a domestic incident" when police drew their weapons.

The person who shot the video, Raysean White, told CNN that before he began filming, he saw police wrestle, punch and Taser Mr Blake.

It was then he started recording. Mr Blake is shown walking around the front of the SUV. The two officers closest to Mr Blake at this point on the video are white males.

 

[mash_24]

Really? What command did Philando Castille not obey? Tamir Rice? George Floyd? Breonna Taylor? Botham Jean? Eric Garner? And so many others?

Since when did not obeying equate to a death sentence. Last time I checked, I don't think cops are the judge, jury and executioner.

Were you a first hand witness to all of these events? Or are you arguing your point based upon hearsay? Look these terms up. You almost have it!

 

[Vismund]

White hot take coming through. Is it too much to ask that our cops not shoot us as citizens (regardless of race) at a clip over 4 times higher than the next nation?

 

[hmt5000]

Oh and the 3rd degree sexual assault wasn't on the 29 yo woman... it was on the 14 yo girl in the back of the car he was reaching for a knife in.


Definition of 3rd degree sexual assault: A person is guilty of third degree sexual assault if he or she is over the age of eighteen (18) years and engaged in sexual penetration with another person over the age of fourteen (14) years and under the age of consent, sixteen (16) years of age.

 

[mash_24]

White hot take coming through. Is it too much to ask that our cops not shoot us as citizens (regardless of race) at a clip over 4 times higher than the next nation?

Absolutely needs to be retraining of cops. Far too many dudes who were either bullied in school or who were bullies. And live each day to use their appointed power in the wrong way. But if you want me to jump on the premise that they’re overwhelmingly out to get a specific race I’d disagree with you. They’re just poorly prepared to do their jobs period. Race be damned.

 

[Lead Belly]

Were you a first hand witness to all of these events? Or are you arguing your point based upon hearsay? Look these terms up. You almost have it!

Video evidence.

 

[Vismund]

Absolutely needs to be retraining of cops. Far too many dudes who were either bullied in school or who were bullies. And live each day to use their appointed power in the wrong way. But if you want me to jump on the premise that they’re overwhelmingly out to get a specific race I’d disagree with you. They’re just poorly prepared to do their jobs period. Race be damned.

Cool, since we found a point of agreement, allow me to further elaborate. Do you find it troubling that Kyle Rittenhouse (shooter in Kenosha last night) was allowed to walk away from shooting three people in the street less than 100 yards from Cops (reports were that he talked to police and then fled the scene)? What about Dylan Roof being detained without incident? The school shooter at Parkland? I don't think every cop that shoots a black dude is a racist, I think they're making racist assumptions about what level of "threat" a black dude presents.

That's why training is important. Police force in America is a symptom of a much larger systemic issue.

 

[Vismund]

I also think my previous point works both ways. The black men I know personally are terrified of cops. Interactions with police are always seen as a "threat" which is an assumption about the police officer. I don't think there's an easy solution to this problem but acknowledging that both sides have to make concessions is a key step.

 

[Lead Belly]

Oh and the 3rd degree sexual assault wasn't on the 29 yo woman... it was on the 14 yo girl in the back of the car he was reaching for a knife in.


Definition of 3rd degree sexual assault: A person is guilty of third degree sexual assault if he or she is over the age of eighteen (18) years and engaged in sexual penetration with another person over the age of fourteen (14) years and under the age of consent, sixteen (16) years of age.

Lol, what? https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/aug/26/facebook-posts/jacob-blake-not-child-rapist/

The women at the house even confirmed it was her who filed the report in may, including the sexual assault.

 

[mash_24]

Cool, since we found a point of agreement, allow me to further elaborate. Do you find it troubling that Kyle Rittenhouse (shooter in Kenosha last night) was allowed to walk away from shooting three people in the street less than 100 yards from Cops (reports were that he talked to police and then fled the scene)? What about Dylan Roof being detained without incident? The school shooter at Parkland? I don't think every cop that shoots a black dude is a racist, I think they're making racist assumptions about what level of "threat" a black dude presents.

That's why training is important. Police force in America is a symptom of a much larger systemic issue.

I’m not familiar enough with these events to really speculate. I would only ask. Did any of these men offer resistance when confronted? Or did they (a) comply with police commands or (b) willingly give themselves up depending on the particular situations? My point being. I’ve spoken to enough cops to know. That regardless of the crime. They really don’t care. They just know that they aren’t going to be the one who ends up dead.

 

[TheEgyptianMagician]

There’s no reason to presume we should be like the rest of the world in anything, but obvious other factors there is that the rest of the world doesn’t have the same right to bear arms as we do nor do they have racial profiteers and various other people profiting off sowing divisions and hatred toward police.

There’s also no reason to presume different cops are going to fail in the same ways in different dynamic situations.

Black men being terrified by cops anecdotally is also self fulfilling prophecy. Everyone should have fear dealing with cops, the kind of fear that prevents you from entertaining the idea of reaching for their taser, or disobeying order to go get something out of your car.

But at least we‘re talking about the actual issue of police brutality, how it’s unacceptable in all its forms and the things we might do as a society to make real improvements in the outcomes of police encounters. Encouraging belligerence towards police and arrogantly, blindly blaming everything on race when competent analysis finds that unjustified, and otherwise enflaming passions over intelligent mutual cooperation ain’t that.

 

[JumperJack]

The statistics say that black men kill cops at a far higher rate than their percentage of the population should present.

If you were a cop and knew that, how would you deal with a split second life or death decision?

And if we’re brutally honest, does the next nation have a minority population that is responsible for such a disproportionate amount of crime? It’s not quite apples to apples.

 

[Vismund]

I’m not familiar enough with these events to really speculate. I would only ask. Did any of these men offer resistance when confronted? Or did they (a) comply with police commands or (b) willingly give themselves up depending on the particular situations?

Presumably so. It further begs the question as was posited above in regards to a situation like Philando Castille, Daniel Shaver (who was murdered in cold blood by a cop who had "YOU'RE FVCKED" on his firearm) and many others with video evidence of shootings that appear to show terrified police officers reacting wholly inadequately. The shooting of Ryan Whitaker a few weeks back is another such example.

We ask our social workers, police officers and teachers to be parents, guardians, guidance counselors, therapists and peace keepers. Pay them meager wages and wonder why we have the issues we do.

 

[hmt5000]

I also think my previous point works both ways. The black men I know personally are terrified of cops. Interactions with police are always seen as a "threat" which is an assumption about the police officer. I don't think there's an easy solution to this problem but acknowledging that both sides have to make concessions is a key step.

The terrified of cops thing kills me though. I watched a video of a kid from Chicago that went to Rutgers. He did the interview at Rutgers to talk about how much he feared police... South side Chicago resident. He went home for Christmas break and was killed in a drive by shooting that Police determined he was not the intended target. Any rational person looking at data could of told that kid that, living in Chicago, police were about 10th on his list of worries.... "if" he were a criminal.

 

[mash_24]

Presumably so. It further begs the question as was posited above in regards to a situation like Philando Castille, Daniel Shaver (who was murdered in cold blood by a cop who had "YOU'RE FVCKED" on his firearm) and many others with video evidence of shootings that appear to show terrified police officers reacting wholly inadequately. The shooting of Ryan Whitaker a few weeks back is another such example.

We ask our social workers, police officers and teachers to be parents, guardians, guidance counselors, therapists and peace keepers. Pay them meager wages and wonder why we have the issues we do.

Couldn’t agree with you more my friend.

 

[Lead Belly]

The statistics say that black men kill cops at a far higher rate than their percentage of the population should present.

If you were a cop and knew that, how would you deal with a split second life or death decision?

And if we’re brutally honest, does the next nation have a minority population that is responsible for such a disproportionate amount of crime? It’s not quite apples to apples.

Lol, care to share your data on that 1st claim?

 

[hmt5000]

Presumably so. It further begs the question as was posited above in regards to a situation like Philando Castille, Daniel Shaver (who was murdered in cold blood by a cop who had "YOU'RE FVCKED" on his firearm) and many others with video evidence of shootings that appear to show terrified police officers reacting wholly inadequately. The shooting of Ryan Whitaker a few weeks back is another such example.

We ask our social workers, police officers and teachers to be parents, guardians, guidance counselors, therapists and peace keepers. Pay them meager wages and wonder why we have the issues we do.

The Castille case was fuched up. That one makes me nervous as a gun owner. That cop should have been prosecuted.

 

[Vismund]

It's going to likely sound stupid or like a straw man but fixing healthcare in this country would fix about 90% of our other issues. Mental illness, extreme poverty tied disease and many other societal issues could be largely eradicated with a change in the way our system works.

 

[Vismund]

I guess the bigger issue than all of this is that the "few bad apples" mantra of our police force is utter ********. PD's across the nation have the legal system by the balls by strong arming DA's over charging police officers who have broken the law. If the recent unrest does nothing else, it should bring an end to things like no-knock raids (which assuredly the 4th amendment should have controlled), police being impervious to prosecution and (hopefully) discourse about the responsibility of all parties involved in these altercations.

 

[hmt5000]

You aren't going to fix high poverty areas with high crime. You have to get the crime down first in order to attract investment and allow entrepreneurship. There are middle and upper class predominantly black neighborhoods that don't have any of these issues. Those places didn't excel in spite of crime... they excelled because they were safe neighborhoods and Americans excel in a safe environment.

 

[Vismund]

The statistics say that black men kill cops at a far higher rate than their percentage of the population should present.

If you were a cop and knew that, how would you deal with a split second life or death decision?

And if we’re brutally honest, does the next nation have a minority population that is responsible for such a disproportionate amount of crime? It’s not quite apples to apples.

If you're referring to WAPO's reporting on 48% of police officer's being killed by Black Men, you are correct but it's the same issue in reverse. Black men are also disproportionately killed by police officers as a portion of population. Not only that, it speaks to a larger issue at hand, why aren't there more black cops in predominantly black areas?

Redlining (check out what it did to inner city school systems in the 80's) and unfair mortgage processes isolated black communities, drove down housing values (Detroit is a prime example) and made them havens for drugs to be the primary source of income for young black men with few other prospects. That problem has been resolved (redlining is now illegal) but the resulting issue of large (DEMOCRATICALLY RUN) cities and violence are still pervasive today.

We have to find a way to engage the black community in our economy in a productive way, offer them opportunities without insulting them (affirmative action was and is a joke) and heal the relationships between the peacekeepers and the citizens they work with.

 

[TheEgyptianMagician]

So you answered the question yourself, people are shot 4 times more because policing is that much more difficult and that much more ineffectual or incompetent.

Fix education. Do that and healthcare also fixes itself. People wouldn’t be as negligent towards their health and they would understand you have to obey lawful commands from an officer, they’re not negotiabl.e

The answer is holistic in nature, not just one side or another. There are always going to be criminals that need to be enforced, blaming everything on systemic racism which doesn’t exist, at least not in the manner they want you to think it does, accomplishes absolutely nothing. Indeed it just makes everything worse, instead of taking knees you should take time to PSA that you need to do what cops ask of you, leave the rest to the courts. That would save lives and put a dent, not a flame, to these tragedies.

 

[Vismund]

You aren't going to fix high poverty areas with high crime. You have to get the crime down first in order to attract investment and allow entrepreneurship. There are middle and upper class predominantly black neighborhoods that don't have any of these issues. Those places didn't excel in spite of crime... they excelled because they were safe neighborhoods and Americans excel in a safe environment.

That's an oroboros mate. How do you fix high crime without fixing poverty? We've seen over policing (search and frisk in NY, Broken Glass policies all over the country) and, while overall crime rates have been dropping over time, the issue of poverty still persists. Poverty needs to be treated as it truly is, a disease. Much like we are genetically pre-disposed to the issues our forefathers dealt with, we are economically pre-disposed to the same problems financially.

 

[Lead Belly]

If you're referring to WAPO's reporting on 48% of police officer's being killed by Black Men, you are correct but it's the same issue in reverse. Black men are also disproportionately killed by police officers as a portion of population. Not only that, it speaks to a larger issue at hand, why aren't there more black cops in predominantly black areas?

Redlining (check out what it did to inner city school systems in the 80's) and unfair mortgage processes isolated black communities, drove down housing values (Detroit is a prime example) and made them havens for drugs to be the primary source of income for young black men with few other prospects. That problem has been resolved (redlining is now illegal) but the resulting issue of large (DEMOCRATICALLY RUN) cities and violence are still pervasive today.

We have to find a way to engage the black community in our economy in a productive way, offer them opportunities without insulting them (affirmative action was and is a joke) and heal the relationships between the peacekeepers and the citizens they work with.

It's not 48%, it's 30%.

49 officers were murdered in the line of duty last year. 15 of them were killed by black suspects.

 

[Vismund]

So you answered the question yourself, people are shot 4 times more because policing is that much more difficult and that much more ineffectual or incompetent.

Fix education. Do that and healthcare also fixes itself. People wouldn’t be as negligent towards their health and they would understand you have to obey lawful commands from an officer, they’re not negotiabl.e

The answer is holistic in nature, not just one side or another. There are always going to be criminals that need to be enforced, blaming everything on systemic racism which doesn’t exist, at least not in the manner they want you to think it does, accomplishes absolutely nothing. Indeed it just makes everything worse, instead of taking knees you should take time to PSA that you need to do what cops ask of you, leave the rest to the courts. That would save lives and put a dent, not a flame, to these tragedies.

I hope you realize that your reliance on "obeying commands" isn't the catch all you're making it out to be. There are plenty of videos on the internet of police officers making unlawful commands that could have netted the person imprisonment for an extended period if they didn't know their rights. We need police officers that have more than a quick BLET course, pseudo psych exam and 6 week training period enforcing the law in the streets.

I'd also argue that your first statement needs some clarification. There are plenty of bankrupt educated folks in this country who lost everything because they have cancer, were in a horrible accident or have a genetic issue. Our healthcare system is about profit, not health.

And speaking out about social issues (or, in this case, kneeling) is all that people are focusing on. Kaepernick has started several foundations, donated a considerable sum to multiple causes and put in the work to fight for some level of social justice. Now, is he above being an idiot? Absolutely not.

And, finally, see my above statement about the courts and DA's in this country and their forced partnership (and the ramifications of that partnership) with police. When I do something wrong at work, my coworker doesn't investigate the situation and report to my headquarters. An independent auditor investigates and reports the facts as they are presented. We don't have that with law enforcement in this country.

 

[Vismund]

It's not 48%, it's 30%.

49 officers were murdered in the line of duty last year. 15 of them were killed by black suspects.

I was referring to the report that studied 2005 to 2013.

 

[TheEgyptianMagician]

I know that some of these incidents are totally due to incompetence or negligence, but that is not the majority of them. The majority of them would be eliminated if people understood you are not entitled to challenge a police officer in the field, for any reason.

Health is absolutely about profit, and many illnesses happen out of the control of the patient, but the vast majority of illnesses do not fall in to that camp but occur due to lifestyle choices.

These things shouldn't need clarification and are rather obvious. If you educate people better, irrespective of their resources, they will value themselves, their health and their futures more. The direct result of that is less needless tragic situations, probably four times less.

 

[bluthruandthru]

The foundation of every state is the education of its youth.
Diogenes

He who opens a school door closes a prison.
Victor Hugo

One of the problems as I see it is that it is difficult to teach in a place that is seemingly unsafe. Poverty stricken areas usually fit that description.

So it seems we have a chicken and egg situation. Education helps to alleviate poverty but poverty many times breeds unsafe teaching situations.

What do we attack first and how?

 

[Vismund]

You specifically stated that fixing education fixes healthcare, I'm arguing it absolutely does not, at least not in the states. Name any other business where you walk in and ask the price for something they offer and they say they don't know until they sell it to you. Or if you have their preferred insurer. Or if there's an out of network anesthesiologist on hand that day. There's no level of "my fatass ate too much fried food and now I'm bankrupt" that will convince me that the above system is fair to anyone or capable of fixing the issue of people obeying a police officers demands.

Sorry, I'm getting off topic a bit, but I'm adamantly opposed to our system as it stands.

The previous administration concluded that Pre-K education was immensely valuable. Inner city schools are adult child care. Rural schools can be border line juvenile detention (in my experience) and everyone wants their kid in a charter school because they are suddenly the golden goose for state funding. I agree we need to fix education but I don't know how we do it with all of the issues we face.

 

[Vismund]

What do we attack first and how?

I like the idea of recruiting local citizens (particularly if it is a minority majority area) to become law enforcement. Utilize their strength within the community to help prevent the continuation of violence. Would work wonders in Chicago.

The issue is that you have to pay them more. Substantially so. Call it hazard pay, I don't care, but anyone working in a volatile area deserves that much. That's the crazy thing about the states though, we collect enough taxes to do literally anything, but spend 90% of it on pork and make everything else fight over the other 10%.

 

[Gassy_Knowls]

The foundation of every state is the education of its youth.
Diogenes

He who opens a school door closes a prison.
Victor Hugo

One of the problems as I see it is that it is difficult to teach in a place that is seemingly unsafe. Poverty stricken areas usually fit that description.

So it seems we have a chicken and egg situation. Education helps to alleviate poverty but poverty many times breeds unsafe teaching situations.

What do we attack first and how?

school choice

 

[TheEgyptianMagician]

I support you being adamantly opposed to current system because it needs to be fixed.


But yes, if you fix education, you fix healthcare. Chronic disease that costs so much in America can be directly attributed to" your fatass eating too much" in the form of diabetes or cardiovascular issues which can be long lasting and expensive to maintain in their best case scenarios.

Not doing that at the population level puts tremendous downward pressure on cost, probably even makes you effectively immune to covid under 55. Which is analogous, instead of everyone blaming something or someone else, they should do the steps they could take which gives you all the bang for your buck so to speak you could ever want.

Obeying lawful orders gets you all the bang for the buck, and then you can go fix what issues remain in courts and how competent police should deescalate.

Instead you (general) blame both on something that doesn't exist today, systemic racism. It's not the system which has really created the problem, even though it needs fixing, but the behavior of the people within it. You fix behavior through better information.

 

[JumperJack]

It's going to likely sound stupid or like a straw man but fixing healthcare in this country would fix about 90% of our other issues. Mental illness, extreme poverty tied disease and many other societal issues could be largely eradicated with a change in the way our system works.

Dont forget legalizing drugs. Take away the reason for so many police interactions and secure the border in one move.

 

[notFromhere]

Hahaha, I am reading it all and considering it openly. However, the data a credible studies clearly indicates than, in America, black people are disproportionately killed at the hands of law enforcement. Regardless of circumstance, economics, geographics and so forth.

If you don't think you are qualified to read studies and understand data, I am not sure how you can feel qualified to do your own analysis? Seems kind of contradictory.

The data is the data.

Studies are for the money or they rarely get off the ground the past 30 years plus.

Violent crime stats tell the story, and it doesn't agree with studies propped up by political special interests. In proportion to violent crimes committed by each ethnic grouping, the only group that is routinely killed at a higher percentage than their percentage of violent crime totals would be the "white and non-hispanic" group. They are killed by police at anywhere from 6-12% higher rate than their proportion of violent crime committed. The african american group is shot by police at a rate over 6% less than that of their corresponding percentage of violent crime committed.

In other words, they should be expected to be targeted at a rate equal to their proportion of violent crime committed. Neither group is, however, but it is the white and hispanic criminal group that is targeted at a greater percentage than their african american criminal counterparts.

This DOES NOT account for the greater disproportion of violent crime committed by african americans in big cities. In other words, the data is distorted IN FAVOR of the african american community because it is factored using national statistics.

If the data is used strictly from the major urban centers, african americans are targeted EVEN LESS than their proportion of violent crime would indicate. In big cities where they commit over 60% of total violent crimes, they are still not shot/killed by police at a rate above 40%. Meaning the white hispanic group is killed at a rate much MUCH higher than their proportion of violent crime committed in these urban areas.

I'm tired of the distortion of these facts and the devastationbthey have caused to our country and to our urban communities. Everyone should be.

(Data used was for 2014, in which percentages of african american violent crime also happened to be lower as a percentage than it is in 2020.)