Updated basketball attendance stats (incl. LPT)...

[zipp_rivals]

For some reason, I couldn't get a stats post to stick in the other active thread on attendance. Maybe I'll have better success here...

Much has been said in the last week about LPT's basketball attendance, including the shock and awe about "so many empty seats." So I took a look at their reported attendance figures to date which I assume are calculated the same way ours are, i.e., tickets sold and distributed.

It's early, but so far this season, they're averaging more than 19K per game. Keep in mind that their capacity was reduced this year to around 20,500--interestingly, less than Bailout Arena. On a percentage basis, they're running a little shy of 95% of capacity. And that figure is based on some pretty soft teams on their schedule.

Just as interesting is that 95% is exactly where U of L was about three years ago during Pitino's last season.

But the compelling stat IMO is where U of L is now at about 67% of capacity. Therefore, the slappies are nowhere close to where U of L is now on attendance, and are in reality much closer to where we were in our heyday.

And I say this at the risk of being called out as the LPT fan I truly am...

 

[REDFISTFURY3]

This attendance debate crap is just that. numbers are down at every school and will continue to decline plain and simple. t So many reasons that it happening every school has it's own unique circumstances. Plus they are pricing themselves out of these games. Just because a named opponent is on the schedule should not mean the school jacks the prices up wards of 60 percent or more. Thats been my issue with going more often season ticket prices are crazy .

 

[zipp_rivals]

So, 95% vs 67% must be an insignificant difference to you?...

 

[REDFISTFURY3]

So, 95% vs 67% must be an insignificant difference to you?...

Prove it

 

[zipp_rivals]

Prove it

Prove what? I was asking your opinion.

If you want me to prove the %-of-capacity data, that's easy. Let me know if that's the proof you need...

 

[REDFISTFURY3]

Freedom Hall held around 18,749 more or less. We are currently averaging around 16-17,000 a game. Like alot of people stated when the yum was being constructed to keep the seating capacity right around what freedom hall had . They could have eliminated 3,000 upper level seats that would have made a much more enjoyable upper arena area.

Being in the top10 number 6 i think still in attendance is the last problem this school has. Maybe if your idols hadn't put this school in this situation we wouldn't be worried about it. It's not Tyra or Macks fault as you would like it to be. Not going to fall into your false narrative debate. Peace enjoy the new regime it's much better !

 

[KozmasAgain]

I might be wrong but I bet our attendance gets a big increase once we start conference play.

 

[PushupMan]

Prove what? I was asking your opinion.

If you want me to prove the %-of-capacity data, that's easy. Let me know if that's the proof you need...

Not the person who asked, but when schools are allowed to report either “turnstile” count OR “tickets sold”, without specifying which they are actually reporting, how do you know that you’re not comparing apples and oranges?

 

[CardVille]

Michigan game will be the first test of attendance.

 

[PushupMan]

I did see a tweet earlier today of a completely empty end zone upper deck during the UK-Utah Valley State game ... so I’m guessing that if UK is reporting attendance at 95% of capacity, they are providing you with tickets sold.

 

[PHCARD]

Who gives a rats @$$ what's happening at KY? Let's post something positive when we see it about UofL. Try it sometime Zipp.

 

[glassmanJ]

Not the person who asked, but when schools are allowed to report either “turnstile” count OR “tickets sold”, without specifying which they are actually reporting, how do you know that you’re not comparing apples and oranges?

they always go with sold as it's higher than attendance. you always pick the higher number to look better

 

[zipp_rivals]

Not the person who asked, but when schools are allowed to report either “turnstile” count OR “tickets sold”, without specifying which they are actually reporting, how do you know that you’re not comparing apples and oranges?

I think we've all had enough experience looking at an actual crowd in an arena or stadium of known capacity and judging whether it's actual or paid attendance. When U of L was reporting attendance years ago near capacity, we were routinely seeing large areas of empty seats.

they always go with sold as it's higher than attendance. you always pick the higher number to look better

This is correct, and the reason why is obvious. The school wants to put its best foot forward with sponsors and fans thinking that they're buying a product in high demand.

All of which casts a dimmer light on our own attendance. We're reporting numbers that represent about two-thirds of capacity and that are, in effect, inflated per the definition of "attendance" that many people have...

 

[glassmanJ]

zipp, i understand your point. i think there are several good reasons that all contribute, with none being the major cause. but if each costs you a thousand or so fans then it add up. but here goes...

- simply flat screen tvs and the ability to watch a game on your phone makes it way more convenient to not go to a game

- comparing us to uk fan attendance is apples to oranges as louisville has a night life, is an awesomely fun town, has tons of things to do, and that simply makes us more of a front runner town. you gotta be good to hold our attention full time. uk fans have nothing else to do but go to games. that's their social life.

- for me, parking prices have gone up and the closed the entrance we would go into to make it only vip so just getting the game now costs more and takes more time to get in.

- isn't a lot of our lower level seating is corporate and owned by people/companies that aren't necessarily louisville fans? hence the large number of blue down there every two years? how many empty seats are there from non cardinal fanatics?

- yum capacity is simply too high to stay packed and regretfully nothing is ever done to fill those lower empty seats with people from up top. simply, too much money sitting down there to let the poor people mingle with them. reduce the seats by 3000 and more will be filled below for better look on tv

- because of the extra seats everyone knows seats can be had for cheap so there's no real excitement or anticipation in the brand per se. we got offered $20 tix tonight and i turned them down. with parking and snacks for my son that's $75 and three and half hours from home back to home. or stay home for free, watch the game, skip the commercials and relax. simply more enjoyable.

- finally, and i think most importantly, not everyone has bought into coach mack yet. with satterfield, we've seen something uncommon happen and his style and enthusiasm is infectious. but with mack, he's more refined, more calculated and he hasn't quite shown us that he's the guy yet.

- i think the duke game last year is the perfect example. we had them beat, stomped and crushed and he couldn't stop the comeback. and then when we got to the tourney we lost again. and in the back of your mind you know he was the #1 seed at xavier and lost early. so he hasn;t given us that win that says, hey, we are going to win a title here with me at the helm. i truly think that simple psychology in fans, knowing that even though we beat unc on the road, that was the anomaly, not the norm,.so i think it is just a matter of the town getting 100% behind the coach. satterfield is there faster than anyone could have imagined. mack has recruited great but there's that sinking feeling that we can blow a huge lead at any time. that probably keeps some fans still at home. he hasn't won anything here yet. so the excitement is still simmering and not quite boiling so the fan base has come back in full.

- finally, there's that 5% who still hasn't come back after TJ and RP.

it all adds up

 

[MikesMarbles]

Kind of off topic, but I think something that is going to affect our fanbase long term is the fact that games are shifting more and more to limited access for the average fan. It's becoming harder and harder to see all the games, especially if you don't have a lot of $$$ to pay for all the different networks. It's not like the old days where you'd see most of UofL's games on WDRB. That kind of access is what built our fanbase, IMO.

 

[zipp_rivals]

I might be wrong but I bet our attendance gets a big increase once we start conference play.

I just happen to have those numbers for the last couple of seasons...

Two years ago, the difference in attendance between the conference and nonconference games was insignificant. In Mack's first year, average attendance went up 8% for the conference games. That translated to 1,400 fans per game.

Thru tonite's game, attendance this year has averaged 14,713 fans which is down 4.7% from the first four games last year.

Michigan game will be the first test of attendance.

Interestingly, attendance last year for the Michigan State game was slightly lower than the average for all of the nonconference games. That game was 4th on last year's home schedule...

 

[zipp_rivals]

zipp, i understand your point. i think there are several good reasons that all contribute, with none being the major cause. but if each costs you a thousand or so fans then it add up. but here goes...

- simply flat screen tvs and the ability to watch a game on your phone makes it way more convenient to not go to a game

- comparing us to uk fan attendance is apples to oranges as louisville has a night life, is an awesomely fun town, has tons of things to do, and that simply makes us more of a front runner town. you gotta be good to hold our attention full time. uk fans have nothing else to do but go to games. that's their social life.

- for me, parking prices have gone up and the closed the entrance we would go into to make it only vip so just getting the game now costs more and takes more time to get in.

- isn't a lot of our lower level seating is corporate and owned by people/companies that aren't necessarily louisville fans? hence the large number of blue down there every two years? how many empty seats are there from non cardinal fanatics?

- yum capacity is simply too high to stay packed and regretfully nothing is ever done to fill those lower empty seats with people from up top. simply, too much money sitting down there to let the poor people mingle with them. reduce the seats by 3000 and more will be filled below for better look on tv

- because of the extra seats everyone knows seats can be had for cheap so there's no real excitement or anticipation in the brand per se. we got offered $20 tix tonight and i turned them down. with parking and snacks for my son that's $75 and three and half hours from home back to home. or stay home for free, watch the game, skip the commercials and relax. simply more enjoyable.

- finally, and i think most importantly, not everyone has bought into coach mack yet. with satterfield, we've seen something uncommon happen and his style and enthusiasm is infectious. but with mack, he's more refined, more calculated and he hasn't quite shown us that he's the guy yet.

- i think the duke game last year is the perfect example. we had them beat, stomped and crushed and he couldn't stop the comeback. and then when we got to the tourney we lost again. and in the back of your mind you know he was the #1 seed at xavier and lost early. so he hasn;t given us that win that says, hey, we are going to win a title here with me at the helm. i truly think that simple psychology in fans, knowing that even though we beat unc on the road, that was the anomaly, not the norm,.so i think it is just a matter of the town getting 100% behind the coach. satterfield is there faster than anyone could have imagined. mack has recruited great but there's that sinking feeling that we can blow a huge lead at any time. that probably keeps some fans still at home. he hasn't won anything here yet. so the excitement is still simmering and not quite boiling so the fan base has come back in full.

- finally, there's that 5% who still hasn't come back after TJ and RP.

it all adds up

For a rhetorical discussion, no one can deny the points you raise. They're the reasons behind the overused "attendance is down everywhere" argument. But not only is it overused, in my opinion, it's also oversimplified. Those points don't explain every situation because a situation like U of L's is unique. Every school that's seeing an attendance decline didn't overhaul its athletic program in the middle of the decline.

If you really want the truth, then, you have to get more analytical and quantitative. You have to look at your own history and the history of other institutions. And we all have to offload our biases for/against what those results might show and be willing to accept the results. IOW if you come at this with an hypothesis, strong POV, or agenda, you have to be willing to admit you were wrong.

So I can't say you're wrong about what you laid out. All I can say is it doesn't settle the debate for the reasons I just mentioned. And I'm not gonna conclude that we can't precisely figure this out, so we should just assume all is well. I used to be paid good money to analyze data, and I would have been fired for an answer like that...

 

[kentuckyshame]

Kind of off topic, but I think something that is going to affect our fanbase long term is the fact that games are shifting more and more to limited access for the average fan. It's becoming harder and harder to see all the games, especially if you don't have a lot of $$$ to pay for all the different networks. It's not like the old days where you'd see most of UofL's games on WDRB. That kind of access is what built our fanbase, IMO.

You’re all over it on this one. There is a reason the Dallas Cowboys are called America’s Team, they were on tv all of the time back in the day, and still are to this day albeit not as much as they use to be. I hate the trouble you have to go through to watch a game these days, it’s all about the almighty $.

 

[kentuckyshame]

In hindsight, IMO the yum center was just a bad idea. A lot of faithful season ticket holders were screwed in the move regarding losing good seats down low. Jurich wanted a new arena on campus and I think he was right, but the deal UofL was getting was too good to pass up. As far as why our attendance is down to me comes down to a number of reasons from high ticket prices, people prefer just watching at home, I think the scandals play a big part, parking downtown, etc.

 

[Blu-ish]

I am not buying the UK at 95% number. I watch their games and read their boards enough to know there are large areas of open seating at their games this season. The UK site posters recognize and discuss the decreased attendance.

 

[nccardfan]

zipp, i understand your point. i think there are several good reasons that all contribute, with none being the major cause. but if each costs you a thousand or so fans then it add up. but here goes...

- simply flat screen tvs and the ability to watch a game on your phone makes it way more convenient to not go to a game

- comparing us to uk fan attendance is apples to oranges as louisville has a night life, is an awesomely fun town, has tons of things to do, and that simply makes us more of a front runner town. you gotta be good to hold our attention full time. uk fans have nothing else to do but go to games. that's their social life.

- for me, parking prices have gone up and the closed the entrance we would go into to make it only vip so just getting the game now costs more and takes more time to get in.

- isn't a lot of our lower level seating is corporate and owned by people/companies that aren't necessarily louisville fans? hence the large number of blue down there every two years? how many empty seats are there from non cardinal fanatics?

- yum capacity is simply too high to stay packed and regretfully nothing is ever done to fill those lower empty seats with people from up top. simply, too much money sitting down there to let the poor people mingle with them. reduce the seats by 3000 and more will be filled below for better look on tv

- because of the extra seats everyone knows seats can be had for cheap so there's no real excitement or anticipation in the brand per se. we got offered $20 tix tonight and i turned them down. with parking and snacks for my son that's $75 and three and half hours from home back to home. or stay home for free, watch the game, skip the commercials and relax. simply more enjoyable.

- finally, and i think most importantly, not everyone has bought into coach mack yet. with satterfield, we've seen something uncommon happen and his style and enthusiasm is infectious. but with mack, he's more refined, more calculated and he hasn't quite shown us that he's the guy yet.

- i think the duke game last year is the perfect example. we had them beat, stomped and crushed and he couldn't stop the comeback. and then when we got to the tourney we lost again. and in the back of your mind you know he was the #1 seed at xavier and lost early. so he hasn;t given us that win that says, hey, we are going to win a title here with me at the helm. i truly think that simple psychology in fans, knowing that even though we beat unc on the road, that was the anomaly, not the norm,.so i think it is just a matter of the town getting 100% behind the coach. satterfield is there faster than anyone could have imagined. mack has recruited great but there's that sinking feeling that we can blow a huge lead at any time. that probably keeps some fans still at home. he hasn't won anything here yet. so the excitement is still simmering and not quite boiling so the fan base has come back in full.

- finally, there's that 5% who still hasn't come back after TJ and RP.

it all adds up

I won’t comment about everything you said except I will comment about your perception of Satterfield and Mack. I’m the complete opposite. The issue is that football fans set the bar or measuring stick at a 2-10 season. That was an anomaly (that’s for Zipp). So compared to that Satterfield is a world beater. I will and will continue to use 7-5 as my measuring stick. Why? I don’t believe 6-6 teams (non winners) should be rewarded with a bowl. Secondly, I don’t believe the players were really as bad as their record. Satterfield is a great coach but he’s not a miracle worker otherwise we would have beat Miami and a bad FSU team.

Mack on the other hand has to be compared, because of our history, to winning at least 20 games, 2nd round NCAA tournament (as a minimum), some say FF. I’ve seen enough of his recruiting and level of effort of his players to know that we shouldn’t expect a drop off from our expectations as high as they may be. It’s all about perceptions and expectations. Go Cards!

 

[zipp_rivals]

I am not buying the UK at 95% number. I watch their games and read their boards enough to know there are large areas of open seating at their games this season. The UK site posters recognize and discuss the decreased attendance.

The 95% number is based on tickets sold, not the people who show up. The schools don't report turnstile count. If you want the LPT numbers for this year, I'll post them here.

I argue that the two--actual v. paid attendance--will match up in the long run, but not the short run...

 

[MikesMarbles]

You’re all over it on this one. There is a reason the Dallas Cowboys are called America’s Team, they were on tv all of the time back in the day, and still are to this day albeit not as much as they use to be. I hate the trouble you have to go through to watch a game these days, it’s all about the almighty $.

For that matter, UofL was one of "America's Teams" for College BB back in the 1980's. When it was just ABC, CBS and NBC, we were on all the time. It really helped build our national brand.

IMO sports are going for short term profits at the expense of building a future. Potential future fans won't connect to a team they can't easily see play on TV.

 

[kentuckyshame]

IMO sports are going for short term profits at the expense of building a future. Potential future fans won't connect to a team they can't easily see play on TV.

I agree

 

[Ipartiedwithhopgood_rivals307205]

For that matter, UofL was one of "America's Teams" for College BB back in the 1980's. When it was just ABC, CBS and NBC, we were on all the time. It really helped build our national brand.

IMO sports are going for short term profits at the expense of building a future. Potential future fans won't connect to a team they can't easily see play on TV.

Al McGuire loved the Cards in the 80s. He loved Denny Crum the admiration was not over the top like it is for some of the top coaches these days, but the respect was real. When he called a UofL game I loved it. He was an elite broadcaster and UofL was an elite program. Crum received love for scheduling top programs and those were marquee games.

Dr's of Dunk. It was a brand.

 

[Blu-ish]

The 95% number is based on tickets sold, not the people who show up. The schools don't report turnstile count. .

Yep, I should have realized that before posting.

 

[Bardman]

All I know is Top 6 in attendance for the last...what? 36 years I believe the stat is. I think that is all I need to know.

 

[zipp_rivals]

All I know is Top 6 in attendance for the last...what? 36 years I believe the stat is. I think that is all I need to know.

You do realize that they're flexing that statistic? It used to be Top Three in attendance.

You can be proud even if it someday says Top Twenty. Just don't confuse that as the status quo...

 

[kentuckyshame]

All I know is Top 6 in attendance for the last...what? 36 years I believe the stat is. I think that is all I need to know.

Great point, hard to keep consistency like that up, especially when your program is rocked by a few major bball scandals, that brought with it the removal of a few final four banners and a championship banner. Id say our fan base is pretty resilient per the circumstances.

 

[Thecycle27]

Yeah there are a lot of factors in play with TV and social media being the biggest change. You can stay at home and still connect with all your buddies.

There is still nothing like being at a electric live game.

 

[gocds]

I did see a tweet earlier today of a completely empty end zone upper deck during the UK-Utah Valley State game ... so I’m guessing that if UK is reporting attendance at 95% of capacity, they are providing you with tickets sold.

I had lunch with a real good friend of mine yesterday and he’s a huge uahkay fan. He asked me about what I thought UofL was averaging in attendance and I told him somewhere around 14,500 and he said, regardless of what was being reported that uahkay was in the 15-16K range. And corupt arena is still above the 21K capacity and you’ll see that when they have a big game over there. Attendance across the USA is an issue for CBB and I believe it’s a “pricing” issue with a somewhat “scheduling” problem also. When you charge full price for a game against Upstate or Akron then you’ll have some blowback. As another poster said that Michigan will be our first “big” game and I totally agree with that opinion and I’m guessing that we’ll be close to 20K for that game. In any case, pricing must be dealt with by the athletic department and our AD. I’m suggesting a new ticket pricing structure related to the competition.

GO CARDS - BEAT EVERYBODY!!! God Bless America!!!

 

[kentuckyshame]

For some reason, I couldn't get a stats post to stick in the other active thread on attendance. Maybe I'll have better success here...

Much has been said in the last week about LPT's basketball attendance, including the shock and awe about "so many empty seats." So I took a look at their reported attendance figures to date which I assume are calculated the same way ours are, i.e., tickets sold and distributed.

It's early, but so far this season, they're averaging more than 19K per game. Keep in mind that their capacity was reduced this year to around 20,500--interestingly, less than Bailout Arena. On a percentage basis, they're running a little shy of 95% of capacity. And that figure is based on some pretty soft teams on their schedule.

Just as interesting is that 95% is exactly where U of L was about three years ago during Pitino's last season.

But the compelling stat IMO is where U of L is now at about 67% of capacity. Therefore, the slappies are nowhere close to where U of L is now on attendance, and are in reality much closer to where we were in our heyday.

And I say this at the risk of being called out as the LPT fan I truly am...

I wouldn’t call you a slappy, just misinformed. I’d argue that 95% # you’re using in their favor is inflated. Someone posted a pic of the upper deck end zone of a uk game in another thread, it was empty, and the game was still in doubt.

The attendance #’s for UofL per se, could be due to special circumstances, these circumstances imo are the vacated banners. Like you mentioned, our attendance under Pitino was distinctly better than just a few years later under Mack.

The Zeitgeist is telling us people are just not attending games as much as a whole. This is not a situation that is effecting just UofL, but the majority of teams around the country, not necessarily all teams though.

 

[BooneCo_Card]

Al McGuire loved the Cards in the 80s. He loved Denny Crum the admiration was not over the top like it is for some of the top coaches these days, but the respect was real. When he called a UofL game I loved it. He was an elite broadcaster and UofL was an elite program. Crum received love for scheduling top programs and those were marquee games.

Dr's of Dunk. It was a brand.

Everyone in the BB audience knew who "Cool Hand Luke" was, thanks to Al. NTM Run DMC wearing UofL jackets on stage said we were big time. The latter blew me away when I saw it.

 

[zipp_rivals]

I wouldn’t call you a slappy, just misinformed. I’d argue that 95% # you’re using in their favor is inflated. Someone posted a pic of the upper deck end zone of a uk game in another thread, it was empty, and the game was still in doubt...

Before anyone else tries debating this issue quantitatively--which is always my preference--I suggest you try to understand a little better these calculations.

As U of L has shown us personally for years, looking at a single picture is not much help estimating the official crowd when the school/arena reports tickets SOLD and not actually used. A single picture reflects the latter.

And I always do the best I can to compare numbers on equal footing. If somehow I get an actual attendance number for a school, I'm not going to compare it to a "reported" number for another. That's not good analysis.

A picture of a recent LPT crowd will indicate how many people showed up for a game. What I'm discussing here is what LPT reports, the same as I am for U of L...

 

[Riddle-me-this]

Reading our boards makes me question whether some of the posters here hate UofL or just have a desire to deliver negative views no matter what. Life is too short to be that miserable.

 

[kentuckyshame]

Before anyone else tries debating this issue quantitatively--which is always my preference--I suggest you try to understand a little better these calculations.

As U of L has shown us personally for years, looking at a single picture is not much help estimating the official crowd when the school/arena reports tickets SOLD and not actually used. A single picture reflects the latter.

And I always do the best I can to compare numbers on equal footing. If somehow I get an actual attendance number for a school, I'm not going to compare it to a "reported" number for another. That's not good analysis.

A picture of a recent LPT crowd will indicate how many people showed up for a game. What I'm discussing here is what LPT reports, the same as I am for UofL...

In the OP, you stated it is your assumption that uk calculates their attendance the same way we do. That’s why I’m assuming their 95%# is inflated, I’m basically betting against your assumption. Either way, the picture I alluded to shows an empty upper deck at Rupp arena, which doesn’t disprove your argument per se, but shows the interest for uk fans to attend games is around where our fans’ interests are. A picture is worth a thousand words.

 

[kentuckyshame]

The OP has piqued my interest here. I’m curious as to what is the point of this thread. Is it just to prove uk is selling more tickets than UofL, or is there an ulterior motive here? If it’s the former, what is gained here? Should we award them a medal?

 

[PHCARD]

The OP has piqued my interest here. I’m curious as to what is the point of this thread. Is it just to prove uk is selling more tickets than UofL, or is there an ulterior motive here? If it’s the former, what is gained here? Should we award them a medal?

shame, it's just Zipp being Zipp. Sometimes he's Jekll and sometimes he's Hyde. I personally think he listens to the headphones too much and gets fired up by others. He really is a die hard Cards fan that just has a beef(s) that goes back prior to even the takeover(coup). Since the takeover, he's rabid about a long list of things. Kinda like DC these days.

 

[kentuckyshame]

shame, it's just Zipp being Zipp. Sometimes he's Jekll and sometimes he's Hyde. I personally think he listens to the headphones too much and gets fired up by others. He really is a die hard Cards fan that just has a beef(s) that goes back prior to even the takeover(coup). Since the takeover, he's rabid about a long list of things. Kinda like DC these days.

I don’t doubt he’s a UofL fan, he claims he is, that’s enough for me. I’ve been a UofL fan nearly 40 years now, so I’ve met plenty of Ville fans that are disgruntled, never get the opportunity to ask why, which explains my interest. I’m too often guilty of over analyzing people, I just want to try and get to the root of their issues sometimes.

 

[zipp_rivals]

In the OP, you stated it is your assumption that uk calculates their attendance the same way we do. That’s why I’m assuming their 95%# is inflated, I’m basically betting against your assumption. Either way, the picture I alluded to shows an empty upper deck at Rupp arena, which doesn’t disprove your argument per se, but shows the interest for uk fans to attend games is around where our fans’ interests are. A picture is worth a thousand words.

I wasn't making an assumption about the slappies per se. All of these schools and arenas report tickets sold for obvious reasons. It makes their numbers and demand for their product look better to those who matter. Our numbers are inflated too for exactly the same reason.

And you must be new to town because it's been this way for awhile...