Here is your argument visualized and debunked. This is thru flipping YouTube and you can clearly hear the difference.
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Vinyl Thread
- Thread starter Anon1711055878
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Seriously, guys. Search "The loudness wars and vinyl mastering" on YouTube. Literally dozens of professional mastering engineers echoing my words.
Search for guys like Greg Calbi and Andrew Scheps. Actual experienced pros that say you are full of chit. Sorry, but I'm much more inclined to believe them than some pissed off dude that hates records on Paddock.
Search for guys like Greg Calbi and Andrew Scheps. Actual experienced pros that say you are full of chit. Sorry, but I'm much more inclined to believe them than some pissed off dude that hates records on Paddock.
Who is arguing that the loudness wars aren't real? Not me. I've mentioned it in my posts in this thread.
But YOU have written that digital audio itself is somehow flawed and partly to blame. It's not.
But YOU have written that digital audio itself is somehow flawed and partly to blame. It's not.
FOR VINYL MASTERING!
GD you're a dense ************. Analog recording and the subsequent mastering for analog media sounds better than digital... FOR ANALOG REPRODUCTION. That's my one and only argument. I believe it, most of the industry believes it and the consumers believe it. You will NEVER prove that incorrect. Never.
Keep on bitching. I love how this sticks in your craw so bad that you're literally projecting an argument onto me that I did not make.
I won't prove it incorrect TO YOU, because you have deeply-held religious beliefs on the subject.
It's a false claim that "most of the industry believes it and the consumers believe it."
Nowhere have you demonstrated that to be the case.
Instead what you have shown is that a small portion of consumers believe it, and that parts of the industry are responding to that small consumer demand.
It's a false claim that "most of the industry believes it and the consumers believe it."
Nowhere have you demonstrated that to be the case.
Instead what you have shown is that a small portion of consumers believe it, and that parts of the industry are responding to that small consumer demand.
BTW- thanks for hijacking and ruining a perfectly good thread. Still not sure of your point in doing so. But, it seems to be a habit with you. Maybe get off the couch now and then?
You made the claim, not me. And you supply only anecdotes to support your claim.
Like those years I studied signal processing in grad school? Or those years I worked in an electronics lab surrounded by audio gear and measurement gear?
The only "habit" I have of "hijacking" threads is to debunk your beliefs.
Yet, you've debunked exactly... **** all.
Maybe try harder as the industry isn't hearing your profound opinion. Again, man. If the industry only knew what some hack in the paddock thinks he knows...
Maybe try harder as the industry isn't hearing your profound opinion. Again, man. If the industry only knew what some hack in the paddock thinks he knows...
OK - this is cool
Let me ask - are you a musician?
Not that it matters in terms of the validity of your post (I think everything you said makes sense etc) but I think I've met people LIKE you before
I've been in studios and recorded with bands but I don't have the technical knowledge of a sound engineer. I can manage my little digital 8-track at home but that's about it :beer:
So - I've met (((and REALLY enjoyed speaking with))) audiophiles that:
a) Don't PLAY music
but
b) Have some kind of (very real) heightened sense of sound qualities and can speak intelligently about the topic
I think that's probably what you are (among other things I"m sure).....?
So - if I'm right - then you are hearing subtleties and textures in music that I'm missing or marginalizing.....
I can play by ear and sit in with jazz, rock, R&B guys and fill in like I've been playing with them for years
But, at the same time, I never really caught all the analog / digital distinctions that you're describing here
I know it's real though so I"m fascinated and am trying to learn at least a LITTLE more --
One of the last piano players I had broke this all down for me over beers one night before we went and caught Greg Allman in Macon, GA
I could understand what he was saying -- conceptually -- about how the compression and digital medium was more sterile (his word as well) --- but I still didn't see a WIDE MARGIN on quality between the two mediums
I think I've just spent years pushing that kind thing to the side because I've worked so hard to understand modal scales, improvising and all that jazz
(no pun intended)
I am going to look at our future new home here in about an hour but will be checking back in later this afternoon on this helpful, delicious, sexy little post
Please keep speaking about what you know about sound.
You're like Moses and Tesla if they had a baby and taught it to record records
......i might have broken my new self-imposed rule on rambling here.....but ....I hank it was for a good cause
PS: IS that thing you posted with the nuclear-record player --- REAL?
PSS: I also worked with an aerospace engineer at my last job -- dude couldn't play any instrument if you paid him -- but he heard those subtitles like you do.......he would elaborate endlessly about tonal distinctions in music like this......I just couldn't believe that I never really paid that much attention like he did
He spent $40K on his home stareo
Honest answer but you won't like it: I think records sound better because they are lower fidelity. The hum and noise actually make it sound good. Really. Oh, and the gimmicky hipster thing too.
One more tip: This isn't the first "resurgence" for vinyl. Back in the stone ages of the 1990s there was a major revival after other formats had proven to be more convenient and lower s/n ratio - because of the same reasons. Once more...I own and listen to wax A LOT so I'm not dissing on it. It's fun, but in terms of audio fidelity -and unless you can afford one hell of a rig- it doesn't approach the audio fidelity of CD.
My two cents. I never stopped playing vinyl and I'm nearly 57. I prefer the sound to CD which I find fatiguing after awhile. There's no right or wrong answer on which one sounds better. It's a matter of preference. I like tubes over solid state too. Yeah I know tubes add distortion but it's pleasing to my ears and that's all that matters. Plus I love tube rolling. Hey it's a hobby. All the technical info means nothing to me. In the end what matters is how it sounds to my ears. I will say that hi-res FLAC and DSD downloads are outstanding. It's great to live in a world where we have so many choices.
It changes the way I consume music for the better. When I get on Spotify I spend most of my time perfecting a playlist and considering the next track rather than just enjoying the current song. I think they call it the paradox of choice or something.
When a pour a coffee or cocktail and sit with my headphones on with a record playing, I tend to fidget less and just enjoy an album from start to finish.
When a pour a coffee or cocktail and sit with my headphones on with a record playing, I tend to fidget less and just enjoy an album from start to finish.
is it possible that there may be no other choice with limitations on gear and/or how things interface or something??
I don't know anything about how older artists go back and take original analog recordings -- which may have since beomce digital
and then make them freakin analog again
that hurts my head to even write it
but I DO Know this --- if ANYONE knows how to do it
It's Jimmy M'Fing Page
I mean -- that kind of makes sense too
Makes me think of Aldous huxley talking about how "fiction" is too neat and orderly -- real life isn't like that at all.....
what you're saying won't make sense to a lot of ppl I guess (pointing to an 'impairfection' in the sound and citing it as an attraction)
But it sound like you're getting at the fact that it's more 'genuine or something like that?
I remember the first time I discovered "amputee porn"
that's kind of like that too I guess
doesn't that stuff take up a lot of space though?
I mean -- I"m not trying to poke holes in the notion
I just haven't thought about this all that much
and I like to poke around and learn what makes people tick
so --- in a similar vein one of the jazz guys I listen to "Euge Groove" recorded a CD where he purposely went back and only used 70's era gear in the studio
that wasn't just the instruments as I recall -- he wanted to get a genuine vibe from that era and that included the tone etc
So -- maybe we'll see a trend back towards older gear in the studio as well in order to support higher LP purchases?
Stinkpurse
damn .... you have a way of selling it..............that's kind of nice
makes me feel a strange combination of vacation style relaxation and "loin heat"
Pick up a copy of Dr. Floyd Toole's book, https://www.amazon.com/Sound-Reproduction-Psychoacoustics-Loudspeakers-Engineering/dp/0240520092
In his book you will learn how easily influenced our sense of hearing is by our conscious and subconscious thoughts. Our sense of vision dominates our sense of hearing. A piece of audio gear looks cool and costs a lot? Our brain is already set up to think it's going to sound better.
Or read through Dr. Sean Olive's blog:
http://seanolive.blogspot.com/
You will see that many self-proclaimed golden-ear audiophiles aren't nearly as good at listening as they like to think they are. They are fooled time and time again by what they see, read, think, etc.
Harman's research once showed college students, after taking a short training course on 'how to listen,' outperformed audiophiles, stereo store employees, and stereo magazine equipment reviewers in listening tests.
hadn't really thought about that angle
I remember hearing something Roger Waters said in an interview and it made sense to me
I don't have the exact quote but it was something about music being an 'emotional notion' and if it "takes you somewhere" --- then it's done its job .....or something like that
So you don't have to have prog-power complexity to a song and harmonized arpeggios to MOVE someone
It could be Pink Floyd's two note (one?) intro to "Shine on You Crazy Diamond" and FEELING how that sound could just FILL an arena
OR ir could be "Angel Band" being played on one acoustic guitar by someone from Bell Co ---- if it's done honestly and with feeling --- it CAN move you
Isn't that "GOOD MUSIC" despite the simplicity and/or stripped down nature ?
Sure it is
Maybe it's the same with gear sometimes?
I can appreciate how some folks are "gear oriented" -- lots of musicians are like that and I LOVE talking with them so I learn more.....
but when I sit on my porch later tonight with just an IPOD and I listen to something that gives me goose bumps .... then that music has been every bit as successful as if it were played over a PA with golden screws and platinum wires
man - I probably could have made my point in 3 lines but.....I sometimes l get so focused that I lose my grip a little
plus - beer
More blogs worth reading:
http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/10-01-06/#feature
http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2012/04/what-we-hear.html
https://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
https://phys.org/news/2016-07-music-vinyl-cds.htmlhttps://phys.org/news/2016-07-music-vinyl-cds.html
https://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/10-01-06/#feature
http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2012/04/what-we-hear.html
https://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
https://phys.org/news/2016-07-music-vinyl-cds.htmlhttps://phys.org/news/2016-07-music-vinyl-cds.html
https://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
Very nice! Back to the true meaning of the thread.Picked these up at Mellow Matt's in BG this week. The Beatles, Rolling Stones & 2 Stillwater
I am definitely not an expert in acoustics, but I find that many vinyl albums do sound better than their digital counterparts to my ears. Not all, but many. Maybe that has to do with file compression, who knows. I also find that MP3 files generally sound worse than either of the other two formats. I've heard the arguments why MP3 should sound just as good (because everything they strip out in inaudible to the human ear). However, I have wondered about something that maybe someone with more technical knowledge can answer. When we listen to live music, or reproduced music, the sound vibrations interact with the room and the things in it. Perhaps they even interact with each other. All of that creates the sound we love and recognize as music. How do we know that even the sound that is inaudible to the human ear doesn't interact with the room and the things in the room, in a way that creates sound waves that are audible, or that modifies the audible sound waves in some way? In other words, how do we know the absence of the inaudible sound waves that are stripped out of MP3 files, etc., don't affect the sound we ultimately hear in some way? Music is imperfect by nature. The imperfection is often what makes it interesting. Digital audio sometimes seems a little to pure or sterile. I'm not really sure how to put it into words. But perhaps the those inaudible sound waves ultimately impact what we hear in ways that are perceptible. Is that possible?
My grandpa left me his setup when he passed. It's from the 1980s but it's an onkyo turntable and 2 kenwood speakers. It was top of the line when he bought it.
He really only listened to classical and opera so I have a ton of those. I used to have a huge collection of my own but had to sell them which sucked. I'm slowly rebuilding. First I bought was "Yankee Hotel Foxtrot" by Wilco
He really only listened to classical and opera so I have a ton of those. I used to have a huge collection of my own but had to sell them which sucked. I'm slowly rebuilding. First I bought was "Yankee Hotel Foxtrot" by Wilco
Remember the old plastic milk crates back in the day that they delivered milk in? I've got around 30 of those full of vinyl i started collecting over 45 years agoPicked these up at Mellow Matt's in BG this week. The Beatles, Rolling Stones & 2 Stillwater
Do the records hold up well over more than 10 years?
I mean - assuming you don't leave them in an attic, accidentally set some of them on fire, throw them into a hot car trunk or throw up in the "box where they are stored"......NOT SAYING I DID ANY OF THAT ---
But if you take reasonable care of them -- do they still warp or degrade?
I really don't know - I had an LP collection for maybe 8 years and either sold them at a yard saLE, lost some or gave some away (possibly AFTER setting some on fire and regurgitating on the whole collection)
but do they HOLD UP?
I mean - assuming you don't leave them in an attic, accidentally set some of them on fire, throw them into a hot car trunk or throw up in the "box where they are stored"......NOT SAYING I DID ANY OF THAT ---
But if you take reasonable care of them -- do they still warp or degrade?
I really don't know - I had an LP collection for maybe 8 years and either sold them at a yard saLE, lost some or gave some away (possibly AFTER setting some on fire and regurgitating on the whole collection)
but do they HOLD UP?
If stored correctly they can last a very long time. I have roughly 1,000 LPs , some dating back to the 60's and they're fine. Some do have scratches but that was due to teenage neglect. Nothing you can do about that. I have a Nitty Gritty record cleaning machine and that helps too.
my older brothers had huge collections and REEL TO REEL Too
I remember all the fuss about certain types of needles, cleaners and hard plastic sleeves to keep the LP's in......
but my brothers were a little OCD sometimes.....one of them painted hundreds of esoteric symbols all over his dresser BUT came back later and used black-light reactive paint and added a hidden trail of occult style messages on the thing.......
that's when I first saw the Blue Oyster Cult "Cronos" symbol
It was also my first tattoo
but back to LP's --- there's a radio station here in Tucson that's playing eclectic music in the a/m and it's all on vinyl
really weird to hear some of the pop/hiss over the radio like that.....I hated the songs they played but I guess I can see the draw with the "warmer" sound
at lest I THINK I'm hearing it
I'm starting to wonder after this thread!
I remember all the fuss about certain types of needles, cleaners and hard plastic sleeves to keep the LP's in......
but my brothers were a little OCD sometimes.....one of them painted hundreds of esoteric symbols all over his dresser BUT came back later and used black-light reactive paint and added a hidden trail of occult style messages on the thing.......
that's when I first saw the Blue Oyster Cult "Cronos" symbol
It was also my first tattoo
but back to LP's --- there's a radio station here in Tucson that's playing eclectic music in the a/m and it's all on vinyl
really weird to hear some of the pop/hiss over the radio like that.....I hated the songs they played but I guess I can see the draw with the "warmer" sound
at lest I THINK I'm hearing it
I'm starting to wonder after this thread!