Vinyl Thread
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If you live in or near Louisville then check out Magnetic Tape and Recorder for turntables.
@Kaizer Sosay - Buy used, preferably certified vintage. Your dollar will go much, much farther. These new, cheap tables end up being a headache in the end and by the time you get a quality new table, you're gonna drop at least $700. $250 will get you a wonderful PL- series Pioneer that will sound SO much better than a new, cheap table.
$350 will get you this and you'll play hell trying to find a new player that will even touch it in sound quality for that money.
Refinished PL-512 Belt-Drive
BTW- that Ebay guy in Kent, Washington selling that Pioneer deck does little more than repair, refinish and resale vintage tables on his Ebay account and he has 100% feedback.
$350 will get you this and you'll play hell trying to find a new player that will even touch it in sound quality for that money.
Refinished PL-512 Belt-Drive
BTW- that Ebay guy in Kent, Washington selling that Pioneer deck does little more than repair, refinish and resale vintage tables on his Ebay account and he has 100% feedback.
I ain't buying jack until I check out the condition of those old records. If the majority of them are in decent shape then I might look into buying a turntable.
And that sounds like great advice if I do find myself in that market. Thanks for the info.
So, I was just talking to another guy about sound fidelity and he reminded me that the newly remastered Led Zeppelin reissues were all re-sampled from source tapes and remastered as Hi-Res files and that those same files were so good that they were the ones used on the LP reissues, as well. Same principle as Daft Punk, apparently.
The new LZ albums are analog-to-digital-to-vinyl. That just seems dirty.
The new LZ albums are analog-to-digital-to-vinyl. That just seems dirty.
I'll agree with one thing - "Californication" is an awful-sounding CD. It's almost unlistenable.
But just because many CD masters were horribly over-compressed doesn't mean that the CD medium itself is flawed or in any way to blame or is in any way lower fidelity than the vinyl LP medium. It's not.
Nor is analog recording a superior-fidelity method. It's not.
And that last statement - about improving one's power supply? - is that specific to turntables because of their susceptibility to wow & flutter? Or are you saying one's entire system needs an improved power supply? And if that is indeed the case, how does one go about improving the power supply?
Why 'dirty?' Does it offend your puritan sensitivities? Your religious belief that analog is somehow superior? Transferring to digital first leads to practically no loss in fidelity, but does allow any and all processing, eq, etc, to be done digitally, which is easier and results in more targeted changes with less reductions in fidelity.
Damn, man. Sorry I upset you with facts. You act like these are my own words or that I'm on a mission from God to rid the world of bad music formats. I don't make the rules. Never poo-poo'd your CD;s, never claimed vinyl to be a superior format. You did that. You picked that fight with a GD sticker on a record sleeve. But, if you feel that strongly that you're right, feel free to contact all these recording artists and record companies striving to make analog recordings and using that fact to sell their records. I'm sure they're all ears to your all-important crying. Better yet, run your opinion over to discogs and explain to all those folks selling records for $500/each that they don't really sound that good compared to a CD. I'm sure the entire industry is hinging upon your sorely uninformed opinion on music formats, bruh. If only they knew what you know.
Well, I might have taken the time to explain what clean power is and does and how quality cables help that, but, since you're just looking to show your *** like a scorned *****... look it up, ******. Not my job to educate you.
Why are you even here? I'm sorry the opinion of millions of consumers, record companies and audiophiles offends you. Enjoy your CD's. Better yet, start your own thread about collecting CDs and MP3s. Leave us alone. It's obvious you have no interest in this thread but to ruin it by acting like a child.
Oh ****. Are you the Red Book CD guy? The same guy who threw a fit about Hi-Res formats vs. MP3s about 5 years ago?:joy:
Yeah, how's that argument holding up?
LMAO. Keep fighting the good fight, man. http://www.businessinsider.com/vinyl-albums-just-outsold-digital-for-the-first-time-ever-2016-12
Yeah, how's that argument holding up?
LMAO. Keep fighting the good fight, man. http://www.businessinsider.com/vinyl-albums-just-outsold-digital-for-the-first-time-ever-2016-12
Respectfully, I am a (admittedly hack) music producer and I worked for a few years in a shop selling audiophile sound equipment and I used to drink the koolaid on things like high-end cables, $1000 DA converters, $1000 phono cartridges, analog mastering of the entire signal path. Even tube-based technology which, oddly, compresses signal in a different way (and actually sounds pretty awesome) I agree 100% that badly-implemented compression is the devil in digital sound production. It eliminates the possibility that dynamics will be used to make better music.
I love to listen to vinyl for the reasons that I articulated earlier. But, I also recognize that people like Neil Young (love his music...hate his gimmick) try to take advantage of the 99.999% of people who can't tell when they are paying $$ for nothing. There is little wrong with CD format or digital formats per se. compression in mixing/mastering is a little bit different issue, but in the end CDs give you higher signal to noise ratio and science proves that really nothing in the audible range is lost in DA/AD conversion. There is actually quite a LOT wrong with vinyl due to the high noise floor which is "practically" unavoidable. Read up on this stuff and pay particular attention to the skeptics for a bit. There is a ton of compelling evidence that the most refined ears (and most of our ears aren't even "good") really can't hear significant musical differences between vinyl/CD recordings in blind tests. That is enough for me. I think most of us would get more audiophile bang for the buck getting a nice headphone amp and a set of GREAT headphones to listed to our whatever format than to listen to just about anything that the crooked-*** music peddlers tell us.
I think most of the folks on this thread have seen this before.
One more
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I think the Foo Fighters recently changed to doing all analogue recording. It's cool and all (and I LOVE Dave Grohl - maybe in a kinda funny way...) but it's the kind of thing that you do when you have more money than sense. By the time the signal path flows to whatever sound setup the end user is rocking whatever (perceived) benefit was achieved through analogue recording is GONE.
No, please do educate me (ie, continue to dig deeper in that hole you find yourself in).
I suppose you don't remember the last time this topic came on on here. I suppose I need to remind you that I'm an EE with a masters degree specializing in signal processing and that I spent my career in design, development, and testing of audio circuitry in a/v systems.
But hey, you've read some blogs and bought a turntable, so you're an expert!
So, please, I beg you, explain what clean power does and how quality cables help. I'm all ears.
I'm glad to see you recognize that you have opinions - not facts - on your side supporting you.
Threw a fit? Oh, I guess that's your way of saying I brought facts into a discussion.
So you're right because vinyl sales are up? That's the crux of your argument? Vinyl sales are still a fraction of overall music sales, including downloads. And if you include illegal downloads and filesharing that is done for free, then you see that vinyl is a tiny fraction of the industry.
A refreshing voice of reason. Thank you.
But bringing up blind testing could send Fuster into a tailspin. The religious believers in high-end cables, and analog-is-superior-to-digital, and "clean power," tend to dismiss blind testing as being inherently flawed because the results of blind testing go against their deeply held beliefs.
Back in the 90s I worked with a guy who went to Dolby Labs and participated in some of their blind testing when they were working on AC-3. I worked with Dolby for many years (worked with, not for), but I never got to go there and participate myself.
Yeah, I like them too. And I've seen documentaries showing the setup Butch Vig has used to record them.
There can be, and are, many reasons for using analog recording, but most of them are more emotional than technical. Rock musicians and producers, as talented as they are, aren't typically well-versed in the technology they use.
As you mentioned Neil Young in your other post, that's a perfect example - he has no understanding of how digital works. He seems to think we actually listen to a digital signal and doesn't even seem to realize there is a D/A conversion involved. And his Pono player was designed by a guy who, IMO, is a quack (I've corresponded with the guy; he's a brilliant person but a very, very strange bird with all sorts of odd beliefs, both in audio and in other topics).
2015 RIAA data on sales of various formats. Notice how tiny vinyl is:
https://www.musicbusinessworldwide.com/files/2016/03/RIAA-2015-Year-End-shipments-memo.pdf
https://www.musicbusinessworldwide.com/files/2016/03/RIAA-2015-Year-End-shipments-memo.pdf
More 2014 and 2015 data:
I haven't found 2016 data yet. But let's say vinyl doubled (which would be a huge change for just one year). It's still a tiny piece of the pie.
https://www.musicbusinessworldwide.com/files/2016/03/RIAA-2015-Year-End-shipments-memo.pdf
https://www.musicbusinessworldwide.com/files/2016/03/RIAA-2015-Year-End-shipments-memo.pdf
More 2014 and 2015 data:
I haven't found 2016 data yet. But let's say vinyl doubled (which would be a huge change for just one year). It's still a tiny piece of the pie.
Here is some 2016 data. Looks like vinyl is still a niche market. Streaming is now dominating.
"Shipments of vinyl albums were up 4% to $430 million, and comprised 26% of total physical shipments at retail value – their highest share since 1985."
https://www.musicbusinessworldwide....ded-in-the-us-in-2016-market-generated-7-7bn/
"Shipments of vinyl albums were up 4% to $430 million, and comprised 26% of total physical shipments at retail value – their highest share since 1985."
https://www.musicbusinessworldwide....ded-in-the-us-in-2016-market-generated-7-7bn/
I
Yeah, it's actually pretty exciting to me that there are a lot of folks getting back into vinyl since it was such a big part of my early musical development. But, seriously, let's all just recognize that there is an AWESOME prevalence of music being available in digital format to just go on an hours-long binge of listening. This didn't exist when I was a kid and I can only imagine what this availability will do for up-and-coming music creators. I love my vinyl, but it is really an emotional thing and nostalgic. The ability to pull up whatever the eff every musician is working at any time on is DISRUPTIVE. I'm going to go pull up the latest Wilco record I've never heard now...
Yeah, it's actually pretty exciting to me that there are a lot of folks getting back into vinyl since it was such a big part of my early musical development. But, seriously, let's all just recognize that there is an AWESOME prevalence of music being available in digital format to just go on an hours-long binge of listening. This didn't exist when I was a kid and I can only imagine what this availability will do for up-and-coming music creators. I love my vinyl, but it is really an emotional thing and nostalgic. The ability to pull up whatever the eff every musician is working at any time on is DISRUPTIVE. I'm going to go pull up the latest Wilco record I've never heard now...
Enjoying a '69 pressing that I bought in mint condition of this:
Dayum. Incredible.
Oh, and all you vinylers pick up a Collector Protector brush from Amazon to keep yer stuff clean. $10 well spent.
Dayum. Incredible.
Oh, and all you vinylers pick up a Collector Protector brush from Amazon to keep yer stuff clean. $10 well spent.
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Well, Kind of Blue is IMHO one of the most musically inventive albums of the 20th century and I dream of owning that one on wax some day...so I feel you there. Comparing other albums to that one is like comparing your every girl you meet to Audrey Hepburn. Bitches Brew is badazz if you think about it from the perspective of the producer and let yourself go a bit but not the compositional masterpiece of Kind of Blue.
So ... what drove the return of records???
Nostalgia?
Or is it just a gimmicky/new thing to younger people?
I've heard "audiophiles" talk about how the sound is warmer and more trye to the source instruments than digital ..... I guess I can see how that can sometimes be true.....
it just seems like a hassle to go back and acquire the turntable / LP's etc
But I have no idea how the ball got rolling on this one
Next thing you know we'll be wearing Panama Jack hats and Members Only jackasses
Nostalgia?
Or is it just a gimmicky/new thing to younger people?
I've heard "audiophiles" talk about how the sound is warmer and more trye to the source instruments than digital ..... I guess I can see how that can sometimes be true.....
it just seems like a hassle to go back and acquire the turntable / LP's etc
But I have no idea how the ball got rolling on this one
Next thing you know we'll be wearing Panama Jack hats and Members Only jackasses
^What is driving the return of records is multi-faceted.
For one, it's a fad, a gimmick, popular among hipsters, and it's popular among older folks who are nostalgic.
Two, the record companies like it because a) they can charge more for LPs than for CDs these days b) they don't have to worry about bit-perfect copies of LPs getting shared all over the internet without being paid for. CDs and illegal downloads have killed their industry. Records/LPs are a source of revenue without any of the headaches of digital copying. The record companies would LOVE to go back to their heyday when LPs ruled and the record labels made money hand over fist.
Three, there is an emotional reason. Opening the record, perusing the liner notes, looking at the cover artwork, setting up the turntable, all put the listener in a certain 'mood' that focuses them on the listening experience. That's a big reason why many people think the LPs sound so good - the extra steps required put them in a certain frame of mind conducive to relaxed but critical listening.
Four, there are cases where the CDs were mastered horribly with too much dynamic range compression and all the peaks chopped off, and a properly mastered LP may sound more pleasing.
My older brothers still have their records from the 70s and early 80s. I still have mine from the early 80s. But when my older brother bought a CD player around 1985 or 1986, I started buying CDs and haven't bought an LP since then.
For one, it's a fad, a gimmick, popular among hipsters, and it's popular among older folks who are nostalgic.
Two, the record companies like it because a) they can charge more for LPs than for CDs these days b) they don't have to worry about bit-perfect copies of LPs getting shared all over the internet without being paid for. CDs and illegal downloads have killed their industry. Records/LPs are a source of revenue without any of the headaches of digital copying. The record companies would LOVE to go back to their heyday when LPs ruled and the record labels made money hand over fist.
Three, there is an emotional reason. Opening the record, perusing the liner notes, looking at the cover artwork, setting up the turntable, all put the listener in a certain 'mood' that focuses them on the listening experience. That's a big reason why many people think the LPs sound so good - the extra steps required put them in a certain frame of mind conducive to relaxed but critical listening.
Four, there are cases where the CDs were mastered horribly with too much dynamic range compression and all the peaks chopped off, and a properly mastered LP may sound more pleasing.
My older brothers still have their records from the 70s and early 80s. I still have mine from the early 80s. But when my older brother bought a CD player around 1985 or 1986, I started buying CDs and haven't bought an LP since then.
PS. I recently saw a man wearing a Members Only jacket. I think it was an original from the early 80s.
Wow. Not one time did I profess vinyl to sound better. Mastering technique for vinyl and what sounds best in that format was always the argument. Glad I could do so much to piss you off. Over a record, dude. You're making an argument I never made. That's how much this bothers you. Interesting.
I don't care what you are or what you do, but you've proven to have a serious bug up your *** about which formats people use to listen to music and why. Nothing, not one thing, I posted was incorrect. Yet, you feel so strongly about it that you seem to go looking for that fight. Congrats, dude. Save the world, one CD at a time.
But, hey man, as long as we take your opinion as fact, it's all good. See, I do remember last time.
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Every. GD. time.
You guys did notice that the thread is titled "vinyl", right? I mean, while looking down your noses trying to start ****, you did take the time to realize there are people here who enjoy buying records, or did that escape you in your haste to exert you unwanted opinion?
Picked up 4 used Hank Williams, Jr. records last night at $4.99/each. Dirty as hell, sleeves are worn, but no scratches.
Wiped the first one down, played it and the stylus was digging up dirt out of the grooves so fast that it couldn't make a complete revolution w/o skipping. Nasty ****.
Time for the wood glue.
Wiped the first one down, played it and the stylus was digging up dirt out of the grooves so fast that it couldn't make a complete revolution w/o skipping. Nasty ****.
Time for the wood glue.
Many, many people never left vinyl. Lots of folks think CD's and digital audio sounds sterile, compressed and harsh (b/c it is). Those are the flaws of digital sound, just like vinyl has its flaws. Some folks choose one over the other.
What prompted me to dig my records out and start collecting again was The Black Keys. No matter how much the fellows above profess that digital is better, I was growing tired of the harsh, artifact-filled mp3's I had of their songs. Couldn't listen to it very long w/o ear fatigue. So distorted. So compressed. So, I bought the CD hoping for better sound quality and it was the exact same sound as the MP3. When I finally broke down and got The Big Come Up on vinyl, I was blown away by the simple detail I could hear in the distorted guitar parts that I couldn't hear before. That was the main difference. B/c it's not super compressed and cranked to 12, you can actually hear that stuff on vinyl... b/c of the way those tracks are mastered to be put on vinyl.
Now, could they master a CD or MP3 to sound the same? Sure they could. But, they don't.
You guys ever wonder why there is a thriving market for turntables that cost more than your house?
No, I was right that vinyl was out-selling your choice of superior format. From the last convo we had about this. Or did that go over your head, too?
Millions of records being sold daily and one hack in the Paddock knws why it's all a huge scam!
Film at 11.
:joy:
Film at 11.
:joy:
You were right about what? Vinyl is outselling what exactly? Did you see the links I posted?
Millions daily? You're losing it.
And if we relied on popularity to determine what's good, then I guess Taylor Swift is the best in music today!
Good point. I do kinda miss the disc washer routine. The effort involved did make you appreciate the music more.