WACO

Dr. H Lecter

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It's total ******** to blame Clinton and Reno for this too. I seriously doubt Bill Clinton had ever heard of David Koresh before the stand off started, he had only been in office for about a month, and Reno hadn't even been appointed AG yet. They weren't just going to let them hole up in there forever after they had killed federal agents. True the feds didn't handle the situation very well, but the feds mistakes were made prior to the stand off, meaning prior to Clinton-Reno even being part of it. Republicans and Conservatives were criticizing them for being weak and let it drag out at the time.

Now Ruby Ridge, otoh, was a much bigger injustice than Waco. That happened with a Republican in office, not that I blame that on Bush41 either. But I've never heard Republicans/Conservatives blame Ruby Ridge on HW. However, they are real quick to blame Waco on Clinton-Reno.

Reno was the one who authorized the raid. Get your facts straight. The NRA never heard of that High School in Florida either. So what?

As for "they had killed federal agents" that was determined by a jury that they had legally defended themselves against federal agents so charges were rightfully dropped.
 
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Dr. H Lecter

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No. Davis Koresh did.

Did Koresh use illegal under the Geneva Convention CS gas on his people? Did he use psyc torture? Sleep deprivation? Loud music and recordings of rabbits being killed? You guys whine about Abu Grab and GITMO yet applaud our govt doing that to innocent women and children at Waco...I suppose because they were a religion other than Muslim.
 

Cawood86_rivals

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Very good show. Koresch had these people(followers) fooled, but I think the ATF was at blame as well. Both sides contributed to the death of innocent victims and children.
There are some interesting docs on the Waco incident. FBI using PsyOps certainly did not help the situation either.
If you have a group that believes the Gov't is Babylon and that will wage war against you and they roll up in tanks, turn off your power, and use PsyOps, you're beliefs are being confirmed in their eyes.
Koresch had ample opportunity to come out and come out peacefully, but didn't. No winners in this tragic event.
 

UK till Death

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Reno was the one who authorized the raid. Get your facts straight. The NRA never heard of that High School in Florida either. So what?

As for "they had killed federal agents" that was determined by a jury that they had legally defended themselves against federal agents so charges were rightfully dropped.
Feds shot first.

The door that they tried to breach (and shot through) was miraculously "lost" (allegedly seen being loaded into a FedEx truck after the fire) while the exact same door next to it survived the fire.

Experts agree one door could not have survived with the other incinerated.
 
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UK till Death

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Rolland Ballestros, one of the agents assigned to the ATF door team that assaulted the front door, told Texas Rangers and Waco police that he thought the first shots came from the ATF dog team assigned to neutralize the Branch Davidians' dogs, but later at the trial he insisted that the Branch Davidians had shot first.[87] The Branch Davidians claimed that the ATF door team then opened fire at the door, and they returned fire in self-defense. An Austin Chronicle article noted, "Long before the fire, the Davidians were discussing the evidence contained in the doors. During the siege, in a phone conversation with the FBI, Steve Schneider, one of Koresh's main confidants, told FBI agents that 'the evidence from the front door will clearly show how many bullets and what happened'." Houston attorney Dick DeGuerin, who went inside Mount Carmel during the siege, testified at the trial that protruding metal on the inside of the right-hand entry door made it clear that the bullet holes were made by incoming rounds. DeGuerin also testified that only the right-hand entry door had bullet holes, while the left-hand entry door was intact. The government presented the left-hand entry door at the trial, claiming that the right-hand entry door had been lost. The left-hand door contained numerous bullet holes made by both outgoing and incoming rounds. Texas Trooper Sgt. David Keys testified that he witnessed two men loading what could have been the missing door into a U-Haul van shortly after the siege had ended, but he did not see the object itself. Michael Caddell, the lead attorney for the Branch Davidians' wrongful death lawsuit explained, "The fact that the left-hand door is in the condition it's in tells you that the right-hand door was not consumed by the fire. It was lost on purpose by somebody." Caddell offered no evidence to support this allegation, which has never been proved. However, fire investigators stated that it was "extremely unlikely" that the steel right door could have suffered damage in the fire much greater than did the steel left door, and both doors would have been found together. The right door remains missing, and the entire site was under close supervision by law enforcement officials until the debris—including both doors—had been removed.

https://www.austinchronicle.com/news/2000-08-18/78306/
 

JohnKBA

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Anyone attempting to justify what McVeigh did is simply showing their true beliefs. Being a coward is not political - doesn’t lean left or right - just shows fear and stupidity and a hate that blinds.

I don’t think anyone is justifying McVeigh’s actions here. The dude was a nut.
 

Ron Mehico

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It is wrong to rewrite history in order to deflect from the ONLY reason that OKC happened. Not kooks in sheets. A guy pissed that women and children were killed by his government. PERIOD.

.

How noble of mcveigh. Some of you political nuts have lost your mind with social media, it's turned you into crazy argumentative kooks that really don't even know why you're arguing what your arguing anymore. It's sad and kinda scary tbh
 

BlueVelvetFog

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How noble of mcveigh. Some of you political nuts have lost your mind with social media, it's turned you into crazy argumentative kooks that really don't even know why you're arguing what your arguing anymore. It's sad and kinda scary tbh
Yep. I’m sensing a right wing nut job out of old Hannibal Lecter
 

UK till Death

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McVeigh likely had at least some white supremacist leanings, however, he maintained throughout his arrest until his execution that the OKC bombing was perpetrated as retribution for Ruby Ridge and Waco.

Any KKK discussion in relation to McVeigh is a red herring, IMO.
 
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Dr. H Lecter

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How noble of mcveigh. Some of you political nuts have lost your mind with social media, it's turned you into crazy argumentative kooks that really don't even know why you're arguing what your arguing anymore. It's sad and kinda scary tbh

What is sad a kinda scary is that you do not understand the importance of history being recorded accurately. Waco was a very very bad event in our history. There are countless examples throughout history of demagogues who twist events like a Waco to meet their narrative and to push their agenda.

I certainly understand why Janet Reno would like to blame the OKC bombing on The Klan or OBL or to the Russians or to attribute it to anything but what it was. Much like Hillary and Obama blaming the death of the US Ambassador on a video. This is exactly the same kind of misdirection. If pointing out the facts is kinda scary for you...then I don't know what to tell you.
 

Ron Mehico

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Janet Reno The Klan or OBL or to the Russians Hillary and Obama blaming the death of the US Ambassador on a video.

Cool, good stuff, thanks. Glad to see we're talking about Russians and Obama in the Waco thread. I'm sure there's some great Facebook discussions going on you can jump into as well.
 
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BlueVelvetFog

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I'm sensing a left-wing nut job in you my friend. I love America. You?
So because I identify something as “right wing”, I’m automatically on the LEFT wing. Interesting theory. I guess there’s no such thing as a centrist



[eyeroll]
 

uk_bill

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Guess to me loving America does not equate to acts of terrorism vs innocents just because they work in a government building nor do find it patriotic to clearly define the terrorist ONLY motive.

And that’s not defending what happen at Waco or Ruby Ridge - both were reprehensible. But if your ONLY solution is killing more innocent Americans then please explain to me how that makes you a better American?
 

UK till Death

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Guess to me loving America does not equate to acts of terrorism vs innocents just because they work in a government building nor do find it patriotic to clearly define the terrorist ONLY motive.

And that’s not defending what happen at Waco or Ruby Ridge - both were reprehensible. But if your ONLY solution is killing more innocent Americans then please explain to me how that makes you a better American?
Who in the hell ITT has tried to justify the crimes of Timothy McVeigh?
 
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uk_bill

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When it’s pointed out his “ONLY” motive was revenge for Waco and Ruby and not the fact he is a batshit crazy coward. Critizing others who mention his possible KKK interests as left wing nut jobs trying to rewrite history.
There’s nothing saying you have to be on the side of FBI or David K - seems pretty clear either side should have de-escalated things and I will always feel like our leaders should have found a better solution.
Still as somebody who lost a friend that day - who was not even in the a Federal Building - it’s not easy to let others speak of a McVeigh as anything other than a monster and coward who killed innocents because he was upset.
And calling others who don’t agree with your agenda left wing nut jobs and asking who is more American does nothing except show your lack of willingness to see others point of view.
 

Dr. H Lecter

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When it’s pointed out his “ONLY” motive was revenge for Waco and Ruby and not the fact he is a batshit crazy coward. Critizing others who mention his possible KKK interests as left wing nut jobs trying to rewrite history.
There’s nothing saying you have to be on the side of FBI or David K - seems pretty clear either side should have de-escalated things and I will always feel like our leaders should have found a better solution.
Still as somebody who lost a friend that day - who was not even in the a Federal Building - it’s not easy to let others speak of a McVeigh as anything other than a monster and coward who killed innocents because he was upset.
And calling others who don’t agree with your agenda left wing nut jobs and asking who is more American does nothing except show your lack of willingness to see others point of view.

McVeigh was a bat shot crazy coward whose motivation was a stated. How you got so pissed off apparently that facts matter is beyond me.

The people with an agenda are those who link every single event to white supremacy. Often times that is done to make some moral equivalency with Islamic terror. Oh white supremacist kill...make up number here.....way more than Islamic terror. That is a leftwing narrative and the attempt to wrap OKC into that through McVeigh is total BS. That is not defending anything but fact.
 
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santamaria78

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Anyone attempting to justify what McVeigh did is simply showing their true beliefs. Being a coward is not political - doesn’t lean left or right - just shows fear and stupidity and a hate that blinds.
piss on the feds they are soul less traitors
 

JDHoss

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Watched the first two episodes last night. Very good so far. David Koresh was bat guano crazy (not that I didn't already know that), and his followers? That's something I'll never understand.
 
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Comebakatz3

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I was just 9 when the court case for this happened. I'm struggling to think of and understand an instance where it is okay to shoot back at government officials.
 

Comebakatz3

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Yes you did. You said you are struggling to think of an instance where it’s ok to shoot back at a government official.

No, no I did not. I didn't say that a government official can go into any and every situation with guns blaring and face no consequences and that we can and should accept it.

The question was and is, how and when can I decide that it is okay or appropriate or self defense to shoot back at them? Is it only justifiable after the fact?
 

Get Buckets

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No, no I did not. I didn't say that a government official can go into any and every situation with guns blaring and face no consequences and that we can and should accept it.

The question was and is, how and when can I decide that it is okay or appropriate or self defense to shoot back at them? Is it only justifiable after the fact?

It’s actually exactly what you said. If you can’t inagine a scenario where it’s ok to shoot back at government officials then you are explicitly stating the government can do whatever they want and a civilian can’t defend themselves. Based on your most recent post above i think you just used a poor phrasing in your earlier post we are discussing.
 
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Free_Salato_Blue

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It’s actually exactly what you said. If you can’t inagine a scenario where it’s ok to shoot back at government officials then you are explicitly stating the government can do whatever they want and a civilian can’t defend themselves. Based on your most recent post above i think you just used a poor phrasing in your earlier post we are discussing.

So when law enforcement shows you a search warrant for your premises, you will tell them to F-off and barricade yourself in? Sure that will end well.
 

JDHoss

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It’s actually exactly what you said. If you can’t inagine a scenario where it’s ok to shoot back at government officials then you are explicitly stating the government can do whatever they want and a civilian can’t defend themselves. Based on your most recent post above i think you just used a poor phrasing in your earlier post we are discussing.

I took it as him saying that it's not going to end well for you if you start shooting.