What was NU's alltime best bball recruiting class?
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I don't know very far back but obviously the Law, McIntosh, Lindsey class deserves consideration and may be the most important one. Although it didn't end up where we wanted I think Vukusic, Hachad and TJ were in the same class if I recall? That was major talent, but TJ left, VV had some injury issues but may have been the most all around talented player I've seen at NU.
Rowley and Mirkovic were going to change the program forever.
Fruent was the highest ranked (I think).
Curletti was a flyer and a big body.
Oh, and Shurna.
(Realistically, the best class is almost certainly the Law-Mac-Lindsey class, or whichever one for Esch or McKinney.)
Fruent was the highest ranked (I think).
Curletti was a flyer and a big body.
Oh, and Shurna.
(Realistically, the best class is almost certainly the Law-Mac-Lindsey class, or whichever one for Esch or McKinney.)
Good question for a stay-at-home day!! A painful question, but a good one.
My initial thought to this was the same as 320: Anybody who was in the Eschmeyer and McKinney classes were the best ones. I can't speak to the McKinney class, but there was so little around the Eschmeyer class that I don't think his class makes top five.
There's also the question of whether we're judging best class by ratings/reputation or production. I'm going with production.
I'd probably vote for the '14 class also - Law, BMac, Lindsey, Skelly and Vasser.
For me, a close second would be either the 2000 class or the '09 class.
The 2000 class is Jitim, Long and ECat's guy, McCants. Are points taken off for Cortez, Long and Goode?
The 2009 class is Crawford, Hearn and Marcotuillio.
As an aside, as I look through the classes:
a) It really emphasizes things. That's a whole lotta bad.
b) In retrospect, there was a real opportunity missed with the classes of '98, '99 and '00 - Lepore, Hardy, Drayton, Deren, Blake, Burke, Ben Johnson, Jennings, McCants and Jitim in three years.
It's too bad KO wasn't less nuts about the way he ran his business.
It's too bad McCants had to do his growing up in Milwaukee.
My initial thought to this was the same as 320: Anybody who was in the Eschmeyer and McKinney classes were the best ones. I can't speak to the McKinney class, but there was so little around the Eschmeyer class that I don't think his class makes top five.
There's also the question of whether we're judging best class by ratings/reputation or production. I'm going with production.
I'd probably vote for the '14 class also - Law, BMac, Lindsey, Skelly and Vasser.
For me, a close second would be either the 2000 class or the '09 class.
The 2000 class is Jitim, Long and ECat's guy, McCants. Are points taken off for Cortez, Long and Goode?
The 2009 class is Crawford, Hearn and Marcotuillio.
As an aside, as I look through the classes:
a) It really emphasizes things. That's a whole lotta bad.
b) In retrospect, there was a real opportunity missed with the classes of '98, '99 and '00 - Lepore, Hardy, Drayton, Deren, Blake, Burke, Ben Johnson, Jennings, McCants and Jitim in three years.
It's too bad KO wasn't less nuts about the way he ran his business.
It's too bad McCants had to do his growing up in Milwaukee.
Isn't the 2018 class of Kopp/Nance/Young/Greer in this conversation already, even without full career evidence? 3 starters and 1 role player just 2 years in.
As far as player rankings go, this 2018 class is tops. Would have been even more so if not for the PG shenanigans.
In terms of hype, many posters including me thought that the 2018 class was going to be the best yet, before Lathon **** the bed.
I would have to say 2014 class was the best - they went dancing and had 4 pretty good years. Their senior year was a big letdown, but the the supporting cast was weaker because of recruiting misses/injuries.
2014-15: 15-17 (6-12, 10th in B1G)
2015-16: 20-12 (8-10, 9th)
2016-17: 24-12 (10-8, 5th) *NCAA tournament
2017-18: 15-17 (6-12, 10th)
4-year total: 74-58 (30-42 in B1G)
I think that run of players in 98-99 were good *Northwestern* players, but not particularly good Big Ten players.
Deren was a starter on good Creighton teams. Blake’s shotmaking could have given him a spot in Big Ten rotations. But, realistically, NU was just about the only Big Ten rotation in which most of those guys would play. (Young could play anywhere. Who knows on McCants.)
Drayton is one of my favorite all-time Wildcat, only because Carmody’s “I found out my point guard was blind” is one of my favorite all-time NU stories.
I mean, if that class didn't have "starters" in it, they would have been starting walk-ons or people from the stands. Let's wait and see how many of them start the next time NU is actually good, or how many compete for all-conference honors, or something other than "started for an 8-23 team."
(I'm not saying it was a bad recruiting class. It may indeed have been great! But "number of starters" is a poor metric because every team in the country has at least 5 regular starters no matter what.)
In my time as a fan, 2014 is the clear winner.
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In hindsight, 2014 class was of course the best. Formed the core of the team that went to the NCAA Tournament.
(As an aside Vassar was in that class and that really stung NU for years to come but ANYWAYS MOVING ON)
It is interesting to note that per 247's four-decimal ratings system, both the 2015 and 2016 class were better than 2014, on average. Falzon remains to this day the fifth-highest rated recruit ever to come to NU. Benson and Ivanauskas were both four-stars by at least one service and still the 12th and 13th highest rated recruits ever at NU. (BMac was 25th by this measure.)
I've said it before and I'll say it again, just a bad mix of unfortunate injuries and lack of player development across those two classes. That doomed NU to rebuilding mode once the 2014 class moved on.
(As an aside Vassar was in that class and that really stung NU for years to come but ANYWAYS MOVING ON)
It is interesting to note that per 247's four-decimal ratings system, both the 2015 and 2016 class were better than 2014, on average. Falzon remains to this day the fifth-highest rated recruit ever to come to NU. Benson and Ivanauskas were both four-stars by at least one service and still the 12th and 13th highest rated recruits ever at NU. (BMac was 25th by this measure.)
I've said it before and I'll say it again, just a bad mix of unfortunate injuries and lack of player development across those two classes. That doomed NU to rebuilding mode once the 2014 class moved on.
Northwestern's greatest Chicago recruiting haul, Gaddis Rathel, Michael Jenkins and Jim Stack all came in the same year to make up the core of that great first NIT team, the one that beat John Paxson and Notre Dame before a packed house at the Rosemont Horizon (before it became the Allstate Arena). Going back to the 50s, Joe Ruklick, Phil Warren and Nick Mantis were the senior core of a team that beat Jerry West in the old Chicago Stadium, and finished 2nd in the Big Ten, and Larry Glass got Dale Kelley and Don Adams in a class that beat Wes Unseld and Louisville in the Stadium. Ruklick and Adams both had solid NBA careers. And the Cats got a highly rated group of Jim Burns, Ron Kozlicki, Walt Tiberi and Jim Cummins (who was a high school all-American) in their class in 1963, and they had some decent seasons. McGaw Hall hosted the 1956 NCAA championships and a bunch of regionals in the 50s and 60s and was one of the largest college arenas in the country until the big bucks came into hoops. Then our basketball Dark Ages began.
How about the class that had Jim Stack? Think it may have included Rathel and Michael Jenkins???
That 2009 class is not getting enough credit. Reggie Hearn is the only NU graduate to score a point in the NBA in 20 years, and Drew Crawford is top 25 in career points in the Big 10. Crawford is ahead of some really, really, good players and he's had a long career overseas. Still crazy to me that the 2011-12 team with Drew Crawford, Shurna, Jershon Cobb, and Hearn couldn't break through (finished 8-10 in the Big 10)
I know he was a walk-on, but i have hard time believing that Carmody wasn't familiar with him before he came to campus. Could be wrong though. . .
I recall reading a story his senior year that his experience was much closer to “showed up at the basketball office and asked for a tryout” than most walk-ons. I could *also* be wrong , though. Can’t find any stories to verify.
Catreporter, can you (or anyone else) help with a class that was before my time?
I was wondering if the '88 class deserved consideration? Lambiotte transfers in from NC State that, year, right? He was a McDs AA who ended up with a pretty good college career, right.
Rex Walters ends up playing well at Kansas with a cup of coffee in the NBA.
Weren't either David Holmes or Pederson highly recruited?
I was wondering if the '88 class deserved consideration? Lambiotte transfers in from NC State that, year, right? He was a McDs AA who ended up with a pretty good college career, right.
Rex Walters ends up playing well at Kansas with a cup of coffee in the NBA.
Weren't either David Holmes or Pederson highly recruited?
Holmes, Pederson and Walters. I looked it up this morning. I thought Nixon was in the group but he was not.
Honestly, the Baldwin and Rankin class was pretty good. They came into a team that was decimated by transfers and made the NIT as seniors.
Nixon was part of that class, but had a hurt knee and redshirted that freshman season. We all know what happened next, so as a recruiting class that group probably had top 3 potential, but the narrative was sadly cut short.
Cobb never could stay healthy and Hearn didn’t emerge until his senior year as I recall. We tend to remember guys at their peak, but those peaks don’t always overlap. Senior Hearn, Shurna and Crawford May have don’t ie but I think they were all different years.
Walters and Lambiotte played one year together. He and Holmes (to Rice) and Kevin Nixon (to Creighton) all transferred out after a 2-16 Big Ten season so while it was a good class, it never really panned out and pulled the rug out from under Bill Foster.
I hear you, but Shurna is number 1 all time in points at Northwestern and Crawford is number 2 (this is good trivia because most people think it's McKinney). They played 3 seasons together!
Best back-to-back-to-back-to-back-to-back recruits based on actual play and not recruiting rankings (2006-2010):
Coble
Juice
Shurna
Crawford (Hearn*)
Cobb
Unfortunately, getting 1 B1G caliber player a class leads to depth issues when injuries arise (as they are wont to do w/ the program).
Everyone but Juice had injuries at one time or another.
*Extra credit for Hearn even tho he wasn't recruited per se (but he did have other choices such as Loyola and UoC).
Cobb played in 27 gms (24.2 mins) as Frosh and 25 (33.6) as a JR, but his other seasons were more marked by injury issues.
If Cobb had been healthier for 1 more season, would have been closer to a Crawford level for impact.
Hearn emerged his JR yr. - avg'ing 7.4 ppg in 25.1 mins.
Had a .486 FG% which was better than the .441 his last season.
After Hearn got denied by his dream school Harvard, he focused his search to 3 schools - NU, ND and Butler.
Butler told Reggie that they weren't taking walk-ons and ND didn't seem too interested.
Mitch largely handled Hearn's recruitment, stating that the staff liked what they saw on tape, but that Reggie would have to work to make the team (but there was a good chance that he would) and that he likely wouldn't play much til his JR year.
That 2012-13 team had a chance of being BC's best team before injuries and Cobb's suspension derailed it.
No Juice or Shurna, but a healthy (and eligible) Cobb, Hearn, Crawford and Swop would have formed the core of the team and all could score and play D.
Coble
Juice
Shurna
Crawford (Hearn*)
Cobb
Unfortunately, getting 1 B1G caliber player a class leads to depth issues when injuries arise (as they are wont to do w/ the program).
Everyone but Juice had injuries at one time or another.
*Extra credit for Hearn even tho he wasn't recruited per se (but he did have other choices such as Loyola and UoC).
Cobb played in 27 gms (24.2 mins) as Frosh and 25 (33.6) as a JR, but his other seasons were more marked by injury issues.
If Cobb had been healthier for 1 more season, would have been closer to a Crawford level for impact.
Hearn emerged his JR yr. - avg'ing 7.4 ppg in 25.1 mins.
Had a .486 FG% which was better than the .441 his last season.
After Hearn got denied by his dream school Harvard, he focused his search to 3 schools - NU, ND and Butler.
Butler told Reggie that they weren't taking walk-ons and ND didn't seem too interested.
Mitch largely handled Hearn's recruitment, stating that the staff liked what they saw on tape, but that Reggie would have to work to make the team (but there was a good chance that he would) and that he likely wouldn't play much til his JR year.
That 2012-13 team had a chance of being BC's best team before injuries and Cobb's suspension derailed it.
No Juice or Shurna, but a healthy (and eligible) Cobb, Hearn, Crawford and Swop would have formed the core of the team and all could score and play D.
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The 1963 NU class of Kozlicki, Tiberi, Burns and Cummins was rated the #1 class in the country ! Jim Cummins may have been the highest rated player but was only a role player, whereas Kozlicki and Burns were absolute stars. Walt Tiberi was a solid point guard. Remember only the B1G champion went to the tournament at that time
Jim Cummins gained fame as a correspondent for NBC until his premature death about 10-15 years ago
NU has obviously not had a good basketball program, but I think we sometimes tend to overlook that we play in a league that is consistently among the top 2-3 in the country.
It certainly was as good as any in the '70s and '80s, slumped in the '90s when coaches such as Knight and Keady started aging out, and the ESPN programming of the ACC with Billy Packer and Duke Vitale gave that league a big boost, but lately seems to be getting back to its competitive self.
In a less-talented league the Cats certainly would have been to more than one dance. But it's hard to get traction when you're constantly the doormat. I think the timing of the Rosemont year along with injuries in Law and Mac's senior year couldn't have come at a worse time.
Anyone who was in Salt Lake in 2017 knows the answer to this question. The atmosphere inside that arena during our 2nd half rally was the most electric I've ever seen our fan base. I have never heard "Let's Go Cats!" chanted any louder or with more energy. Fitz and JLD going crazy in the stands was just awesome. Finally we were at a NU sporting event where *OUR CROWD* was the dominant force. Our fans were willing the team to a come back. At the end, the Meme of Jim Phillips' son said it all. The players and fans left it all on the court and in the stands that day. I still look at that box score in protest because of the goal tend non-call. We shoulda won that frigging game. Everyone in Purple left that arena completely emotionally drained. My buddies and I had all lost our voices. For me, even losing at the end, that weekend was better than the Rose Bowl (too young to know how special it was & too poor to enjoy it). Better than 54-51 (great game but still just one game in the regular season). Better than the Michigan game that got us into the Dance (ok, that one is close). FWIW, I was at all of those so I feel I have a legit vote here. Somewhere, I even have a plug of grass from the end zone where DA dropped that pass of 54-51. That weekend in SLC doesn't happen without the '14 class. IMO, this is like the Jordan/LeBron debate. It's close on paper until you actually think about it. Then there is no debate.
They were both wonderful players who also scored a lot of points because they played a lot of games/minutes. They were great by NU standards but almost every big ten program has guys with as much or more talent and more depth of talent as well. The best potential roster I'd ever seen was year Coble left the program. That would have been Coble, Shurna, Drew, Juice, Moore I believe (maybe some I'm forgetting). That felt like a roster with top 25 talent if healthy and with good chemistry.
The Rosemont experience was depressing. As a fan it was just miserable. I think the bigger issue over the years was the refusal to provide basketball a practice facility until last November.
I've told this story before but I was at a team even when Carmody was the coach and they were opening the then new locker rooms behind the stands. They had the old locker rooms open for comparison. I had never been in the old ones. They were worse than you could ever imagine, high schools had better locker rooms. I asked Carmody what he did when recruits visited, in a perfect Carmody response, he told me he just told recruits they could not see the locker room because they were being painted.
So yeah people get on Carmody about recruiting but the guy had nothing to show recruits and no help from the administration.
^ Also been saying that for years.
It's no coincidence that recruiting started improving once the (modest) renovations to the BB facilities were underway.
That's certainly not to say BC wasn't w/o his faults - recruiting wasn't fave thing to do and he should have hired an assistant w/ local ties from the very beginning.
Took too long to develop ties w/ the Chicagoland high schools - didn't start to get going until Juice, Capocci - followed by Shurna, Rowley, Freundt and Crawford.
I'd say that's even more telling of how good of a player they were.
Opposing teams only had to concentrate on stopping (usually) 2 guys on the 'Cats.
After Juice graduated, Johnny had to shoulder even more of the load on O (altho Drew was coming into his own).
While Shurna's FG% dipped a little (had the most FGA his SR yr), he upped his PPG to 20.
Imagine if opposing defensive schemes weren't predicated on stopping Johnny.
It's no coincidence that recruiting started improving once the (modest) renovations to the BB facilities were underway.
That's certainly not to say BC wasn't w/o his faults - recruiting wasn't fave thing to do and he should have hired an assistant w/ local ties from the very beginning.
Took too long to develop ties w/ the Chicagoland high schools - didn't start to get going until Juice, Capocci - followed by Shurna, Rowley, Freundt and Crawford.
I'd say that's even more telling of how good of a player they were.
Opposing teams only had to concentrate on stopping (usually) 2 guys on the 'Cats.
After Juice graduated, Johnny had to shoulder even more of the load on O (altho Drew was coming into his own).
While Shurna's FG% dipped a little (had the most FGA his SR yr), he upped his PPG to 20.
Imagine if opposing defensive schemes weren't predicated on stopping Johnny.
Looking back I find it sort of amazing that BC was able to build what he did--I think we had 3-4 consecutive NIT runs and a couple NCAA bubbles playing in arguably the toughest conference in the country despite the fact that he had the worst facilities, smallest fanbase, fewest resources, strictest admissions and he hated recruiting. The guy was a brilliant X's and O's guy but so are a bunch of other big ten coaches.
I could never figure out if I found him excellent with X's and O's or just excellent with X's and O's for the level of recruiting talent he had.
Always felt he over achieved for talent levels that made a dunk a reason to lose your mind with happiness, that involved praying every game you'd only be beaten severely, and not totally annihilated on the boards.
The Princeton worked on hiding deficiencies, but would he look so competent with a different kind of group of players?
The Princeton O hurt with rebounding and defense. A lot of very good recruits wanted nothing to do with that type of offense.
I think the level of athlete hurt more. The Princeton O allows for over matched teams to scheme to score and run clock so as to shorten the game.
Carmody only had one team I would call athletic and that was the Crawford, Hearn, Swopshire team that was destroyed by injury. (I wrote this and realized that the Mo Hachad, TJ Parker, VV teams were pretty athletic too).
BC's level of recruiting was not much different and perhaps better than NU historically--absent a couple of outlier recruits etc.. The difference was that he was able to coach suboptimal talent into relative competitiveness for most of the last several years. I think he made the NIT 4 straight years, a couple of NCAA bubbles, and then only missed the NIT his last year when team got decimated with injury. So his recruiting was about the same as our historical levels, but his ability to have them overperform when not decimated by injury (a common ocurrence at NU it feels) was impressive.
I agree with this statement, but "outlier recruits" doesn't do Shurna and Crawford justice. They are number 1 and 2 in points all-time at Northwestern. That's pretty special and gotta give BC credit for that.