What's really going to be the decision.

HuffyJB

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I've seen many UNC posters claim that men's bball should be safe. I'm sure that is wishful thinking or "rose-colored glasses" to an extent, but I don't know if I get the logic. Why do they feel that program will be safe? Wouldn't it be very easy to prove that players used the classes proven fraudulent to maintain eligibility ( a simple transcript review)? Why do they have the luxury of having used the program and get away clean, while other less marquee programs are left to pay for the same crimes?

And to the point of the thread, I think the NCAA lacks the balls to do what is warranted under the circumstances, and there will be mere slaps on the wrist when the dust settles.
 

ticket2ride04

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Ticket, you do realize that you have to stay eligible to play! There-fore if the only way you are eligible to play is fake classes, then the school is using en eligible players. That is a major violation!

Exactly JCD!

Who has deemed the classes are fake? SACS didn't. UNC didn't. None of the athletes or students who took one class or majored in AFAM Studies had their degree rescinded.

So how are they fake?
 

ticket2ride04

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I've seen many UNC posters claim that men's bball should be safe. I'm sure that is wishful thinking or "rose-colored glasses" to an extent, but I don't know if I get the logic. Why do they feel that program will be safe? Wouldn't it be very easy to prove that players used the classes proven fraudulent to maintain eligibility ( a simple transcript review)? Why do they have the luxury of having used the program and get away clean, while other less marquee programs are left to pay for the same crimes?

And to the point of the thread, I think the NCAA lacks the balls to do what is warranted under the circumstances, and there will be mere slaps on the wrist when the dust settles.
I just posted this, but how are the classes fraudulent?
 

Anon1728003274

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Are you saying classes not attended with grades administered by Deborah Crowded are LEGIT??!! Lol, well how come RW DECLINED to meet w/MW to review whatvwas going on in Jan '14?? Remember, he called her out on it and then said "its not my world."
 

ticket2ride04

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Are you saying classes not attended with grades administered by Deborah Crowded are LEGIT??!! Lol, well how come RW DECLINED to meet w/MW to review whatvwas going on in Jan '14?? Remember, he called her out on it and then said "its not my world."
Please provide me with a link or article where the classes have been discredited.
 

DevilDJ

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From what I understand, UNC basketball and football should be safe.



And from whom do you get this "understanding?" Roy? Larry? The recruits they lie to? B-Rad? Look , I've said from Day 1 that despite unx committing the most egregious recorded case of academic/athletic fraud in NCAA history , there's always a chance of a wristslap. But if all your info about fball and bball being "safe" comes from anyone attached to unx , I'd be skeptical. Year FIVE! One question: has unx ever lied during that time period?



The never ending dark cloud has hurt football and basketball more than any NCAA punishment has.


So far anyway...


As for being "ready for it to end," thats a choice UNC could have made many moons ago by coming clean. Thus you can blame the flagship for the lifespan of the pending case...


Exactly. I've asked the question before. Would unx spend 10 million (an' countin') on PR , spin , early retirements , a bs "documentary" (lulz) , lawyers and God-knows-what-else to save women's basketball and men's soccer? They're up the proverbial Sheet Creek an' they know it. Just a question of whether or not another corrupt organization ( the NCAA ) will do anything about it.



In your opinion, what UNC sports should be punished and why? What should the punishment be?



Seriously? unx fans are clueless and it's because they get all their info from each other. Dude. Go to the other thread. Read the e-mails. Read the comments from other educators like Gerald Gurney and David Ridpath. These are people with no skin in the game. Objective. They all say the same thing..."Worst fraud in NCAA history."



Let me ask again. Why should taking these classes result in penalties from the NCAA?



All due respect , you're either blind , stupid , intentionally obtuse or all three. Let's take the NCAA out of it. unx's accreditation agency ( SACS ) put them on probation. Ya know how many times SACS has put a Tier-1 research university on probation? Uhhh , never. Never ever. The only other penalty they coulda handed down was to yank unx's accreditation...which would mean the school would likely shutter. Lock the doors and turn out the lights. SACS "probation" ain't like NCAA "probation." They also noted that unx LIED to them in the first investigation. They also cited the root of the academic problem...athletics. unx has refused to call these classes "fake." Why? If they do the NCAA hammers 'em. That's why the charges are "impermissible benefits" rather than "academic fraud." unx KNOWS the NCAA depends on the university to call the classes fraudulent. Doesn't matter what unx says anyway. SACS has already spoken. Another question. If the classes shouldn't result in penalties , why the money , delay , scapegoating , early retirements , etc?
 
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DevilDJ

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Who has deemed the classes are fake? SACS didn't. UNC didn't.


unx didn't. If SACS didn't declare the classes as fake , why the decision to have unx re-offer classes to the students who took 'em? Remember the quote? "Make the degrees WHOLE?" This is silly. Typical tarhole semantics , equivocations , rationalizations , word-games , whatever....


SACS cited the university for 7 out of 18 compliance violations including integrity, comprehensive standards, control of athletics, program content, academic support system, and academic freedom

"The board intended to send a serious message with the 12-month probation," SACS President Dr. Belle S. Wheelan said. "The issue that academic integrity is at the heart of everything our institutions do ... they need to take every step possible to ensure the academic integrity of their programs and degrees."

Possible punishment from the SACS board included the option of stripping UNC of its accreditation.

UNC has a year to respond to the agency and explain exactly how it plans on addressing the violations.

SACS first put the university on notice back in 2011 when the scandal erupted, but said last fall the agency now considered the findings of Kenneth Wainstein as a new issue.

The agency claimed UNC showed a lack of "institutional integrity," wasn't diligent in providing information, and that two university employees withheld information.



http://abc11.com/education/unc-gets-serious-punishment-in-wake-of-scandal-/777947/


I guess I'm reading all that wrong. Sounds like a minor disagreement but the unx academics in question are A-OK. Lulz. What a joke. If you're gonna debate this stuff at least do your homework. This is the same kinda crap unx fans have been pullin' for the last 5+ years. If it was any other school , the tarhole nation woulda already confirmed what everyone else already knows. I'll say it again , there's always a chance the holes could skate but it won't be because they're not dirty.
 
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ticket2ride04

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And from whom do you get this "understanding?" Roy? Larry? The recruits they lie to? B-Rad? Look , I've said from Day 1 that despite unx committing the most egregious recorded case of academic/athletic fraud in NCAA history , there's always a chance of a wristslap. But if all your info about fball and bball being "safe" comes from anyone attached to unx , I'd be skeptical. Year FIVE! One question: has unx ever lied during that time period?






So far anyway...





Exactly. I've asked the question before. Would unx spend 10 million (an' countin') on PR , spin , early retirements , a bs "documentary" (lulz) , lawyers and God-knows-what-else to save women's basketball and men's soccer? They're up the proverbial Sheet Creek an' they know it. Just a question of whether or not another corrupt organization ( the NCAA ) will do anything about it.







Seriously? unx fans are clueless and it's because they get all their info from each other. Dude. Go to the other thread. Read the e-mails. Read the comments from other educators like Gerald Gurney and David Ridpath. These are people with no skin in the game. Objective. They all say the same thing..."Worst fraud in NCAA history."







All due respect , you're either blind , stupid , intentionally obtuse or all three. Let's take the NCAA out of it. unx's accreditation agency ( SACS ) put them on probation. Ya know how many times SACS has put a Tier-1 research university on probation? Uhhh , never. Never ever. The only other penalty they coulda handed down was to yank unx's accreditation...which would mean the school would likely shutter. Lock the doors and turn out the lights. SACS "probation" ain't like NCAA "probation." They also noted that unx LIED to them in the first investigation. They also cited the root of the academic problem...athletics. unx has refused to call these classes "fake." Why? If they do the NCAA hammers 'em. That's why the charges are "impermissible benefits" rather than "academic fraud." unx KNOWS the NCAA depends on the university to call the classes fraudulent. Doesn't matter what unx says anyway. SACS has already spoken. Another question. If the classes shouldn't result in penalties , why the money , delay , scapegoating , early retirements , etc?

unx didn't. If SACS didn't declare the classes as fake , why the decision to have unx re-offer classes to the students who took 'em? Remember the quote? "Make the degrees WHOLE?" This is silly. Typical tarhole semantics , equivocations , rationalizations , word-games , whatever....


SACS cited the university for 7 out of 18 compliance violations including integrity, comprehensive standards, control of athletics, program content, academic support system, and academic freedom

"The board intended to send a serious message with the 12-month probation," SACS President Dr. Belle S. Wheelan said. "The issue that academic integrity is at the heart of everything our institutions do ... they need to take every step possible to ensure the academic integrity of their programs and degrees."

Possible punishment from the SACS board included the option of stripping UNC of its accreditation.

UNC has a year to respond to the agency and explain exactly how it plans on addressing the violations.

SACS first put the university on notice back in 2011 when the scandal erupted, but said last fall the agency now considered the findings of Kenneth Wainstein as a new issue.

The agency claimed UNC showed a lack of "institutional integrity," wasn't diligent in providing information, and that two university employees withheld information.



http://abc11.com/education/unc-gets-serious-punishment-in-wake-of-scandal-/777947/


I guess I'm reading all that wrong. Sounds like a minor disagreement but the unx academics in question are A-OK. Lulz. What a joke. If you're gonna debate this stuff at least do your homework. This is the same kinda crap unx fans have been pullin' for the last 5+ years. If it was any other school , the tarhole nation woulda already confirmed what everyone else already knows. I'll say it again , there's always a chance the holes could skate but it won't be because they're not dirty.

Have the classes or degrees been discredited? If not, how can the NCAA deem the students took fake classes?

Just looking for an answer to that question.
 

DevilDJ

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Please provide me with a link or article where the classes have been discredited.


For the umpteenth time , unx won't do that and you know it. More importantly , you know WHY they won't. unx also refused to call this a pervasive multi-year full-on four-alarm scam but we all know the truth don't we? I gotta question. "Please provide me with a link or article" where SACS re-affirms the academic authenticity of the classes. I'm waitin.'
 

DevilDJ

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Have the classes or degrees been discredited? If not, how can the NCAA deem the students took fake classes?

Just looking for an answer to that question.


I believe I answered it quite clearly...more than once. You play ball at unx too? I can reco a good tutor. Need a link?
 

Anon1728003274

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We are truly to believe I guess Ticket when even your own folksy Carol has declared and I quote!
"Its an academic and athletic scandal."
Yes the paper classes existed "on paper!"
 

ticket2ride04

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I'm not arguing shady stuff didn't happen. I'm not saying I'm not embarrassed by it all. I'm not saying we didn't do wrong.

But the NCAA is in the business of monitoring illegal benefits, not academic rigor. As it stands, the classes are considered legit. So what,mexactly, is the NCAA going to drop the hammer on?
 

DevilDJ

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But the NCAA is in the business of monitoring illegal benefits, not academic rigor. As it stands, the classes are considered legit. So what,mexactly, is the NCAA going to drop the hammer on?


What are you not understanding? You're right. The NCAA isn't in the business of determining academic rigor ( even though they have at other schools in the past. ) They're not investigating "academic rigor." The charge is "impermissible benefits." unx used bs classes for the specific purpose of admitting , keeping eligible and ( in some cases ) graduating idiot jocks. "Jocks" , mind you , that unx KNEW were incapable of doing college-level work. I've posted all this before in the other thread...




B-Rad. "Athletes admitted...prepared so low they cannot succeed here..."




Deb Crowder to Wayne Walden ( Roy's... )




All that is from unx and it's just a fraction of the damning info available.
 

ticket2ride04

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What are you not understanding? You're right. The NCAA isn't in the business of determining academic rigor ( even though they have at other schools in the past. ) They're not investigating "academic rigor." The charge is "impermissible benefits." unx used bs classes for the specific purpose of admitting , keeping eligible and ( in some cases ) graduating idiot jocks. "Jocks" , mind you , that unx KNEW were incapable of doing college-level work. I've posted all this before in the other thread...




B-Rad. "Athletes admitted...prepared so low they cannot succeed here..."




Deb Crowder to Wayne Walden ( Roy's... )




All that is from unx and it's just a fraction of the damning info available.
But they didn't cheat. Those classes were under the purview of the Dean of Arts. They took advantage of easy classes just like non-athletes did. So it wasn't an impermissible benefit.
 

DevilDJ

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But they didn't cheat. Those classes were under the purview of the Dean of Arts. They took advantage of easy classes just like non-athletes did. So it wasn't an impermissible benefit.


Again , you're not getting it. You're regurgitating tarhole PR. Look , the classes weren't just "easy." Every school has those. they were fraudulent...designed to keep jocks eligible. Look at Crowder's e-mail. Adding non-athletes to the classes was PART of the scam. Red flags all over if ya don't sprinkle in regular students too. You haven't read the Wainstein Report either. Many of the classes were "bifurcated." That means the jocks had no academic expectations but the "real" students did. That's why ya have reports of some athletes bringing drinks and snacks to class for the regular students who were busy doing , you know , actual schoolwork. Answer these questions...

1) If they were simply "easy" , why did unx raise concerns about their number in 2005?

2) If they were simply "easy" , why did Roy express concern that so many of his players "clustered" there? Would he that same concern had they "clustered" in , say , Math?

3) If they were simply "easy" , why did unx end 'em when Crowder left?

4) If they were simply "easy" , why is unx on academic probation by SACS?

5) If they were simply "easy" , why did SACS tell unx to "make degrees whole" due to their existence?

6) If they were simply "easy" , why did unx allow Deb Crowder ( NOT a teacher!!!!! She had as much business giving assignments and grading papers as you and I do!!!! ) to have that authority?

7) If they were simply "easy" , why were profs names forged to 'em? Why no syllabus?

8) If they were simply "easy" , why did unx use Independent Studies ( reserved for academically elite students! ) to keep jocks eligible and AWAY from a classroom?

9) If they were simply "easy" , why did unx list 'em as "lecture" courses yet required no attendance?

10) If they were simply "easy" , why did the tutors and some profs ROUTINELY ACCEPT PLAGIARIZED WORK & FAIL TO REPORT IN-CLASS CHEATING? Instead they gave full credit to the athletes and not once ever turned anybody into the Honor Court. Why?

11) If they were simply "easy" , why the need for "bifurcation?"

12) If they were simply "easy" , why did SACS require the students still enrolled at unx to take other classes to fulfill their degree requirements? "Oh ya took a few AFAM and COMM classes? Gonna graduate this spring? Nope. Re-take something else. What ya took was bs."

13) If they were simply "easy" , why did Nyangoro have to return the money he "earned" for "teaching" some of 'em?

Look , if you're gonna call yourself a world-class university with a world class education to provide then ya just can't do this crap. unx did. Is what it is. Keep splittin' hairs an' playin' the semantics game though. We all know what the deal was. So do you. On the positive side , I'd say unx receives a fraction of the punishment they deserve so there is that. But again...it won't be because they're not dirty. They are.
 

ticket2ride04

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Again , you're not getting it. You're regurgitating tarhole PR. Look , the classes weren't just "easy." Every school has those. they were fraudulent...designed to keep jocks eligible. Look at Crowder's e-mail. Adding non-athletes to the classes was PART of the scam. Red flags all over if ya don't sprinkle in regular students too. You haven't read the Wainstein Report either. Many of the classes were "bifurcated." That means the jocks had no academic expectations but the "real" students did. That's why ya have reports of some athletes bringing drinks and snacks to class for the regular students who were busy doing , you know , actual schoolwork. Answer these questions...

1) If they were simply "easy" , why did unx raise concerns about their number in 2005?

2) If they were simply "easy" , why did Roy express concern that so many of his players "clustered" there? Would he that same concern had they "clustered" in , say , Math?

3) If they were simply "easy" , why did unx end 'em when Crowder left?

4) If they were simply "easy" , why is unx on academic probation by SACS?

5) If they were simply "easy" , why did SACS tell unx to "make degrees whole" due to their existence?

6) If they were simply "easy" , why did unx allow Deb Crowder ( NOT a teacher!!!!! She had as much business giving assignments and grading papers as you and I do!!!! ) to have that authority?

7) If they were simply "easy" , why were profs names forged to 'em? Why no syllabus?

8) If they were simply "easy" , why did unx use Independent Studies ( reserved for academically elite students! ) to keep jocks eligible and AWAY from a classroom?

9) If they were simply "easy" , why did unx list 'em as "lecture" courses yet required no attendance?

10) If they were simply "easy" , why did the tutors and some profs ROUTINELY ACCEPT PLAGIARIZED WORK & FAIL TO REPORT IN-CLASS CHEATING? Instead they gave full credit to the athletes and not once ever turned anybody into the Honor Court. Why?

11) If they were simply "easy" , why the need for "bifurcation?"

12) If they were simply "easy" , why did SACS require the students still enrolled at unx to take other classes to fulfill their degree requirements? "Oh ya took a few AFAM and COMM classes? Gonna graduate this spring? Nope. Re-take something else. What ya took was bs."

13) If they were simply "easy" , why did Nyangoro have to return the money he "earned" for "teaching" some of 'em?

Look , if you're gonna call yourself a world-class university with a world class education to provide then ya just can't do this crap. unx did. Is what it is. Keep splittin' hairs an' playin' the semantics game though. We all know what the deal was. So do you. On the positive side , I'd say unx receives a fraction of the punishment they deserve so there is that. But again...it won't be because they're not dirty. They are.
The NCAA needs something tangible to base a ruling on. Easy classes open to everyone doesn't fit. Emotionally, you want us to burn. I get it. But just like in a court of law, the NCAA will need to prove student-athletes gained an unfair advantage or benefit. The shoe doesn't fit.

And I can promise you no university wants the NCAA to get in the business of overstepping their power and deciding which classes are too easy and which are just right. Too much room for subjectivity. Who's to say performing arts, ballet, art history, or women's studies won't be next?

Looking forward to your next essay. :)
 

Anon1728003274

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Ticket love the way you stand up w/stubborness despite the way DDJ is taking you to the woodshed.Again I ask why hasnt a SINGLE TAR HEEL from the 2005 team BESIDES McCants come forth w/a detailed defense of his academic work??
Its not possible....Oh they will ridicule him, claim he's lying, etc, but they know he's right...
#TheTruthIsInTheTranscripts
 
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HuffyJB

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The NCAA needs something tangible to base a ruling on. Easy classes open to everyone doesn't fit. Emotionally, you want us to burn. I get it. But just like in a court of law, the NCAA will need to prove student-athletes gained an unfair advantage or benefit. The shoe doesn't fit.

And I can promise you no university wants the NCAA to get in the business of overstepping their power and deciding which classes are too easy and which are just right. Too much room for subjectivity. Who's to say performing arts, ballet, art history, or women's studies won't be next?

Looking forward to your next essay. :)

Wasn't there a disproportionate number of athletes in that department and in those classes? Meaning, if the average class at UNC is made up of 10% student-athletes, but those classes were 60%. Or if the average major at the school is 10% student-athletes, but 60% of student-athletes were AFAM majors. And those numbers aren't accurate, I am just making up an example. I think that would probably show a clear athlete-specific advantage because, with the steps the school has taken (even as gingerly as they have to minimize the impact as best they could), they have admitted to issues in that department, and athletes took advantage of those issues far more than the general student population. I might be wrong, but I think I read that there were like 8 or 9 AFAM majors just on the 2005 team.
 

LetsGoDukies

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Ticket, here is an article from last summer that may help you understand what exactly the charges are. The allegations revolve around lack of institutional control and impermissible benefits as others have tried to point out to you.

Examining UNC's Notice of Allegations

Chris Moore - Jun 4, 2015

The NCAA has accused the University of North Carolina of committing five major violations, including lack of institutional control.

The NCAA sent a Notice of Allegations to UNC on May 20 outlining the charges, which stemmed from a second investigation into the athletic department. The university released the document on Thursday.

The lack of institutional control charge is the headliner of the five allegations. Essentially, this allegation means that the officials in charge of regulating the UNC athletic department failed at their jobs. This charge was brought because the NCAA deemed that UNC had an “unchecked” system of providing improper academic assistance to its athletes.

This charge typically carries the harshest sanctions the NCAA can levy. Previous schools hit with lack of institutional control, such as USC and Boise State, have been given probation, scholarship reductions and postseason bans. This allegation is not sport-specific, but instead is an indictment on the behavior of the athletic department on the whole. Because of this, sanctions could extend to every athletic program or individual programs that committed the most severe violations.

After the lack of institutional control, the next-most serious charge is that the university provided impermissible benefits to athletes from 2002-11. This allegation is in relation to the academic support staff and irregular classes in the African and Afro-American Studies department. The NCAA alleges that UNC provided illegal extra benefits because the staff made arrangements for athletes that weren’t available for regular students. The alleged improper conduct includes requesting course offerings for student-athletes, suggesting assignments for athletes, turning in assignments for athletes and recommending grades for athletes.

The Notice of Allegations states explicitly that those special arrangements were made to “help ensure the eligibility of academically at-risk student-athletes.” Though the classes were available to all students, the NCAA says that the amount of involvement by athletic academic counselors “relieved student-athletes of the academic responsibilities of a general student.”

Under the cloud of the impermissible benefit charge, the NCAA said that 10 athletes from 2006-11 took more credits in independent study classes than the university permits its students to take. Those 10 athletes were able to exceed the maximum because the university was operating independent study classes under the disguise of lecture classes. The NCAA says it was an extra and impermissible benefit to allow athletes to exceed the maximum because regular students could not enroll in that many independent study hours.

Similar to this charge but more specific in scope, the third allegation was that Jan Boxill knowingly provided extra benefits in the form of impermissible academic assistance to women’s basketball players. Boxill was the director of UNC’s Parr Center for Ethics and was also an athletic academic counselor for the women’s basketball team. The bulk of these impermissible academic benefits include Boxill adding content to women’s basketball players’ papers and assignments.

The last two allegations are that Deborah Crowder and Julius Nyang’oro violated NCAA principles by refusing to participate in the NCAA’s investigation. The NCAA considers these major violations. These two allegations were factors in charging the university with lack of institutional control.

There are no specific charges against Roy Williams, Sylvia Hatchell, Larry Fedora or any other athletic coach. The allegations are against the athletic department as a whole and the athletic academic support office. The three individuals specifically charged — Boxill, Crowder and Nyang’oro — are no longer employed by the university.

The Notice of Allegations makes it clear that the NCAA believes UNC exploited its irregular courses for the purpose of maintaining eligibility. It also cites all three major sports as beneficiaries of the system.

The AFRI/AFAM department created anomalous courses that went unchecked for 18 years,” the report says. “This allowed individuals within ASPSA to use the courses through special arrangements to maintain the eligibility of academically at-risk student athletes, particularly in the sports of football, men’s basketball and women’s basketball.”

Potential Penalties

Given the context of the allegations, there’s really no way to predict what penalties or sanctions will stem from this report. The two charges of lack of institutional control and providing impermissible benefits open the door for just about any penalty.

With lack of institutional control, the entire athletic department should be put on probation, at a minimum. The significance of probation is that should UNC commit another major violation during that probationary period, the death penalty becomes a possibility. Additionally, the charge could bring postseason bans and scholarship reductions, varying in severity by sport.

The NCAA’s framing of the case as a machine for providing impermissible benefits is an interesting angle. The Committee of Infractions doesn’t really have the jurisdiction to determine that classes were too easy. None of the allegations relate to academic fraud. But because athletes were given preferential treatment in enrolling in the classes and receiving improper aid, the NCAA deemed those improper benefits. If athletes received illegal benefits then participated in games, they could be ruled retroactively ineligible, thus causing the vacation of wins. Improper benefit charges also typically result in the loss of scholarships and postseason bans.

The one clear deduction that can be made is that the women’s basketball program is in deep trouble. One of the five allegations — citing Boxill’s unethical behavior — was entirely about the women’s basketball program. In the NCAA’s list of factual information that led to its allegations, correspondence involving members of the women’s basketball program was the most heavily cited.

Regarding men’s basketball, football and other Olympic sports that were involved in the report, there’s no way of telling how much they were attached to the allegations. The university’s redaction of the document doesn’t allow us to see which athletes were the recipients of the illegal benefits. Men’s basketball and football were certainly involved, as the NCAA stated while alleging that arrangements were made to keep athletes in those sports eligible. But there’s no way of connecting specific allegations of wrongdoing to specific athletes on those teams.

All five of the allegations were labeled as Level I violations, which is the most severe classification for the NCAA. The sanctions, if applicable, will be derived from the NCAA’s old penalty structure, which is more lenient than the structure implemented in 2013. The case is being penalized under the old structure because the violations all occurred before summer 2011.

What Happens Next

The Notice of Allegations marks the beginning of the end of this scandal, though it’s not yet the end of the road. What happens immediately is that the university will issue a response to the allegations. Athletic Director Bubba Cunningham said UNC will agree with some of the allegations but will challenge others. The university has until Aug. 20 to issue a response letter to the NCAA, and Cunningham said the university will use almost all of that time.

After the receipt of that letter, a hearing will be set up between the Committee on Infractions and UNC. This is where the university has a chance to argue each individual allegation and prove innocence.

Approximately 60-90 days after the hearing, the Committee on Infractions will release a final report, which determines what the school was found guilty of and what the sanctions will be.

It's important to remember that UNC has not been found guilty of any of these allegations. These are simply charges. Guilt or innocence will not be determined until the hearing.
 

ticket2ride04

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Wasn't there a disproportionate number of athletes in that department and in those classes? Meaning, if the average class at UNC is made up of 10% student-athletes, but those classes were 60%. Or if the average major at the school is 10% student-athletes, but 60% of student-athletes were AFAM majors. And those numbers aren't accurate, I am just making up an example. I think that would probably show a clear athlete-specific advantage because, with the steps the school has taken (even as gingerly as they have to minimize the impact as best they could), they have admitted to issues in that department, and athletes took advantage of those issues far more than the general student population. I might be wrong, but I think I read that there were like 8 or 9 AFAM majors just on the 2005 team.
Let me be clear, I know there was something amiss. Yes, there was clustering within the AFAM department. My point is that technically, the classes have not been discredited. If they have not been discredited, the NCAA doesn't have anything to hang it's hat on.

This is a huge black eye for UNC and I would be lying if I said it didn't diminish my Kenan-Flagler MBA. The reason why the school has done multiple investigations is to show they are committed to academic excellence over athletics. UNC earns millions with athletics. They earn billions with research grants.
 

LetsGoDukies

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My point is that technically, the classes have not been discredited. If they have not been discredited, the NCAA doesn't have anything to hang it's hat on.
No, the NCAA is hanging their hat on impermissible benefits. They're not buying that just because UNC sprinkled a few non-athletes into these classes that the courses weren't created for athletes to maintain eligibility.

The reason why the school has done multiple investigations is to show they are committed to academic excellence over athletics.
The only investigation that was even close to being a true investigation was Wanstein. The rest were merely whitewashes done to try to save athletics.
 

Anon1728003274

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And now you have not only the NCAA but SACS watching over the 'ship's shoulder. I would really genuinely believe UNC is trying to "do the right thing" but cannot when I read Melvin Scott (AFAM major '05) was brought back last spring to be one of the monitors of athletes going to class...
 

Smythe13

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And now you have not only the NCAA but SACS watching over the 'ship's shoulder. I would really genuinely believe UNC is trying to "do the right thing" but cannot when I read Melvin Scott (AFAM major '05) was brought back last spring to be one of the monitors of athletes going to class...
Maybe they hired Melvin to keep him quiet, just like Sean May
 
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DiehardDukeFan4Life

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Ticket2ride04, if you don't believe they were fake classes? Then what would you call a bunch of classes where athletes were given grades for not doing any work or having others do their work for them? You can't really be that delusional can you?
 

ticket2ride04

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I've made my point and some of you refuse to see it. I openly admit that the NCAA could absolutely hammer us. But I suspect they won't given the information that has been provided. Time will tell. All the best.
 

DevilDJ

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The NCAA needs something tangible to base a ruling on. Easy classes open to everyone doesn't fit.


They DO have "something tangible" and the "easy classes open to everyone" dog won't hunt. Bifurcation , Crowder openly admitting she adds non-athletes to the rolls to avoid red flags , Crowder TEACHING some of the classes , profs names forged yada yada yada. Yep. Sounds like a few easy classes open to everyone to me. Lulz.



And I can promise you no university wants the NCAA to get in the business of overstepping their power and deciding which classes are too easy and which are just right. Too much room for subjectivity. Who's to say performing arts, ballet, art history, or women's studies won't be next?


I look forward to your next post where you actually acknowledge any of it. Oh wait...


And I can promise you no university wants the NCAA to get in the business of overstepping their power and deciding which classes are too easy and which are just right. Too much room for subjectivity. Who's to say performing arts, ballet, art history, or women's studies won't be next?



This is all bs^^^. The classes weren't just "easy." Of course , if you let go of that fantasy you lose what's left of your weak-azz rationales so it's no wonder you cling to it.



Let me be clear, I know there was something amiss. Yes, there was clustering within the AFAM department. My point is that technically, the classes have not been discredited. If they have not been discredited, the NCAA doesn't have anything to hang it's hat on.


No , technically they HAVE. SACS DISCREDITED them. Like you said , that's not in the NCAA's wheelhouse anyway. When your accreditation agency trashes the classes no other opinion is required.



. The reason why the school has done multiple investigations is to show they are committed to academic excellence over athletics. UNC earns millions with athletics. They earn billions with research grants.



THIS ^^^ may be the most bs you've spewed in this thread and that's sayin' something. The "multiple investigations" are to save banners and wins and perpetuate a lie known as the "carolina way." End of story. Costs nothing to own up and take your medicine. NOTHING! And while unx earns billions in research grants , they want it both ways. Explains why there's few tenured profs there and why so few will speak out due to fear of Mary Willingham-style backlashes. Why would a prof in a legit dept even care anyway? He/she's not told to cheat. Their dept isn't perverted to serve athletics. Look , unx could give 2 sheets about "academic excellence over athletics." They proved that with the Martin whitewash. Even the ex-governor and Baker-Tilley ( unx's accounting firm for that fiasco ) have recanted some of their findings. unx PAID 3 "experts" to rebut Mary....without giving them access to all her info. unx narrowed the scope to get the pre-determined answer they wanted. Even the "experts" conceded their findings coulda been different had they access to ALL the info. unx purposely witheld it. #carolinaway. lol



I've made my point and some of you refuse to see it.


Your point is to "JCD" for the most egregious cheaters in NCAA history and I'd hesitate to level that accusation at us if I were you. You've been smacked in the face with this thread and the other and still sit there screaming with your fingers plugging your ears. You cherry-pick issues you think you can "win" ( You can't! ) and ignore anything that doesn't fit your narrative. If it was anybody else , you'd have already conceded what everyone who's NOT a unx fan did a long time ago.
 
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jydevil

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2-3 year post season ban for football, men's basketball.
3-4 year ban for women's basketball.
Lose 3-4 scholarships --men: 4-5 women, 8-10 football.
Vacated wins from 2002-2011 (up to and including the 2005 and 2009 titles in men's basketball.)
5-7 years probation.
DJ is correct. The NCAA is in a position of either saving themselves or UNC-Cheat. Who do you think they save?
man...do i hope you are right
 
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dconifer0

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My understanding of this thread is that Ticket is acknowledging that egregious things have happened, but also that UNC could/should get off on a technicality (that is "the point" that he refers to) . I'm not sure there is actually much disagreement on anything substantive here except that.
 
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ticket2ride04

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My understanding of this thread is that Ticket is acknowledging that egregious things have happened, but also that UNC could/should get off on a technicality (that is "the point" that he refers to) . I'm not sure there is actually much disagreement on anything substantive here except that.
Bingo
 

LetsGoDukies

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To be honest, I'm just ready for it to end. The never ending dark cloud has hurt football and basketball more than any NCAA punishment has. Recruiting is down. Fan involvement is down. Public perception is down.
You say you're just ready for it to end. So what if the NCAA does obliterate them? (i.e. - 2 banners down, 2+ years postseason ban for MBB, 3+ scholarship reduction in MBB) Will you say "I'm just glad it's over" and move on or will you be raising absolute hell and crying foul? Just curious.
 

skysdad

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Ticket you know UNC is gonna get out of this mess don't you. Well I do too but UNC nation shouldn't be so proud because from that time on college athletics as we know it will never be the same. It will open up a gate so wide that all the cattle in Texas will walk through it. It's dirty no matter how one looks at it and all those involved know it wasn't right and it doesn't happen everywhere either. I like and respect you ticket but if this happened at Duke in no way would I be posting what you have here over at THR. 1st I would have gotten in only one post even if I tried. Wrong is wrong . OFC
 

OldasdirtDevil

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Ticket you know UNC is gonna get out of this mess don't you. Well I do too but UNC nation shouldn't be so proud because from that time on college athletics as we know it will never be the same. It will open up a gate so wide that all the cattle in Texas will walk through it. It's dirty no matter how one looks at it and all those involved know it wasn't right and it doesn't happen everywhere either. I like and respect you ticket but if this happened at Duke in no way would I be posting what you have here over at THR. 1st I would have gotten in only one post even if I tried. Wrong is wrong . OFC

Good post, Sky. The only thing that we differ in is that I'm a little more optimistic that UNC is going to get hit pretty hard. I just don't think the NCAA can let them get off that easy. Time will tell though.

OFC
 

topps coach

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Good post, Sky. The only thing that we differ in is that I'm a little more optimistic that UNC is going to get hit pretty hard. I just don't think the NCAA can let them get off that easy. Time will tell though.

OFC
Dirt hope you are right but will believe it when I see it
 

DevilDJ

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It's dirty no matter how one looks at it and all those involved know it wasn't right and it doesn't happen everywhere either.


Bottom line. At the very least. Bare minimum. If unx skates , the damage done to their reputation is forever and irreparable. They'll always be linked with collegiate scandal and corruption. Their legacy is just as bad ( if not worse! ) than the schools they used to point the dirty end of the stick at...SMU , The U , tOSU , Southern Cal etc. It's ironic that the tarhole nation has long looked down their noses at the Jimmy V years at NC State. The record has now been straightened. State's violations were negligible...especially compared to what unx has been doing for 20+ years. Virtually all of unx's athletic accomplishments ( across multiple sports! ) can justifiably be viewed skeptically. Heck , all those gaudy ACADEMIC honors for player grad rates and GPA's can be called into question too. They're a laughingstock and that's forever. Maybe the best sanction for 'em can't be delivered by the NCAA anyway. Let's face it. It would just be one corrupt entity penalizing another. unx and their fans have treasured their manufactured image. The "public ivy." The "flagship." The "perfect marriage of athletics and academics." What all colleges should aspire to be. They bundled all that up and named it the "carolina way." unx's icon , Dean Smith , used the phrase to title his book. It was/is EVERYTHING to them. It's never been enough for a hole to simply enjoy the accomplishments of the unx athletic programs. They have to enjoy the wins AND lord their notion of innate superiority over rivals. Well , now all that's over. Everyone knows the truth behind the "carolina way." The most bitter pill for unx fans? Their icon was instrumental in crafting an image he had to have known was hypocritical...a fantasy...a lie. Sure , unx will still win games , sanctions or not. But they now know the ugly truth behind all of it...including their icon. They'll never be able to puff out their chests and gloat with the self-satisfied smugness that defines 'em. For unx fans , that may be the worst penalty of all.
 

ticket2ride04

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You say you're just ready for it to end. So what if the NCAA does obliterate them? (i.e. - 2 banners down, 2+ years postseason ban for MBB, 3+ scholarship reduction in MBB) Will you say "I'm just glad it's over" and move on or will you be raising absolute hell and crying foul? Just curious.
Just move on. Control the things you can and let the things you can't work themselves out.

It would certainly stink, but what can you do. There are bigger issues in life than college basketball.

Let me reverse it. If they walk, will you curse the heavens or move on?
 
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ticket2ride04

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They'll still do that. It's the Carolina Way.
Honest moment, I used to be a Carolina Way guy until my brother went through the major D1 recruiting and played college baseball at UNC including 3 college World Series. Saw a lot of stuff behind th scenes with them and other sports. College athletics is just a dirty business. Say what you want, but a lot of these kids are exploited and have no business being at most schools. It's a better topic to discuss in person vs on the board.

My little bro has been in the majors the last four years and that too has changed how much of a fan I can be. Met some pros in a variety of sports and it truly is just a business. You would be surprised how many guys don't have love for the game and justifiably so when you consider what's asked of them. Again, not all of them, but more than you would think.