What's the air speed velocity of a raven flying through a snow storm?
- Thread starter FMPoke
- Start date
It depends. Is it an African or European swallow ... err raven?
http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/91120-how-far-can-ravens-fly-in-a-day/
Seems like you are looking at at least 2.5 days for the run and the flying both ways.
Think I have my distance from the wall to DS about half of what it should be. By any stretch, if they were only there 1 night, the math doesn't add up.
I heard the Night King was tremendously pleased to see a Napa Auto Parts store nearby equipped with 800 feet of heavy chain to pull the dragon out of a lake that should have been frozen solid months ago.
I need to stop reading these threads, the nitpicking is just getting annoying. Martin's story is in a freaking knot and these guys had to figure out a way to get out of it with out boring the hell out of us. Just enjoy the show for what it is and then read the books for the details because you know we'll get 8 pages describing that one mountain
You're assuming he lives long enough and is motivated enough to finish the books.
As with a lot of awesome things, part of the fun is poking at its flaws and imperfections. It's still amazing but the artistic license currently being used to ignore distances and time are funny.
The biggest problem is most of the glaring and jolting issues that take you out of the moment can be fixed with a simple sentence or two uttered by a character, or a passing glimpse of something in the background. You don't need a million extra dollars for.
Tormund: So we take out that guy.
Jon: No, Danny is our only hope.
Tormund: We've been on this rock for 4 days and are out of food. That pretty southern boy's frozen corpse is probably being humped by a dead bear right now.
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Cowpoke,
You're spot on. Recently, the most glaring unforced errors has been the time lines and how they jump around without giving a clue as to how much time has transpired in the interim.
They'll show a scene between two characters and you don't know if the next scene is contemporaneous, takes place an hour later, or if it happens two weeks later. As you said, a couple of quick "throw-away" lines could serve to prevent confusion and make things seem far less ridiculous than sending a raven and an hour or two later dragons show up, which would of course be physically impossible.
I realize that there's a lot of magical, unrealistic things going on that are part of the story arc, but don't screw around with the time line and keep people in the dark about it.
You're spot on. Recently, the most glaring unforced errors has been the time lines and how they jump around without giving a clue as to how much time has transpired in the interim.
They'll show a scene between two characters and you don't know if the next scene is contemporaneous, takes place an hour later, or if it happens two weeks later. As you said, a couple of quick "throw-away" lines could serve to prevent confusion and make things seem far less ridiculous than sending a raven and an hour or two later dragons show up, which would of course be physically impossible.
I realize that there's a lot of magical, unrealistic things going on that are part of the story arc, but don't screw around with the time line and keep people in the dark about it.
How about this....
Have Bran see a vision, right after the party leaves Eastwatch, of them trapped and surrounded by the WW army. He tells Sansa what he sees, and she sends a raven to Dany/Tyrion at Dragonstone. Using Bran, to see visions of the future, solves a lot of "transportation" problems. It allows armies/characters to start heading for a destination before they need to be there.
Have Bran see a vision, right after the party leaves Eastwatch, of them trapped and surrounded by the WW army. He tells Sansa what he sees, and she sends a raven to Dany/Tyrion at Dragonstone. Using Bran, to see visions of the future, solves a lot of "transportation" problems. It allows armies/characters to start heading for a destination before they need to be there.
I don't think they want Bran seeing the future yet. That causes all sort of issues.
The main plots take place in Westeros, which is about the size of Western Europe (England, France, Spain, Portugal). ~3,800 Km from the wall to the southern most part of the South.
Dragonstone (where Dany is at) is NE of Kings Landing. Kings Landing is a central location (central to North and South) So Dragon Stone is probably less than half of 3,800km ...say 1,400 km.
An average raven can fly around 600 miles in a day with rest, but we aren't on earth and these are trained ravens. Lets say this raven can fly 80mph (not unheard of among certain bird species)....& we are in a world with White Walkers and dragons...which I'm sure can also fly pretty damn fast.
But lets just say a raven can fly 80 mph or 128km/h...1,400km would take 10 hours and a dragon can fly pretty damn fast...lets say twice as fast. 5 hours.
Lets add in the time it takes for the runner to get to the wall (5 hours).
So possibly within 20 hours they get stuck on the rock surrounded and Dany shows up. I'm not even sure the book tells it like this or if its days I have no clue but based on what I know and the maps out there, I don't think this really requires any explanation of time gap.
And yeah, I'm not sure we want to watch anyone slowly travel across Westeros (in other examples of time gaps). Once you see them in the new location they were heading you can assume it took days/weeks
Dragonstone (where Dany is at) is NE of Kings Landing. Kings Landing is a central location (central to North and South) So Dragon Stone is probably less than half of 3,800km ...say 1,400 km.
An average raven can fly around 600 miles in a day with rest, but we aren't on earth and these are trained ravens. Lets say this raven can fly 80mph (not unheard of among certain bird species)....& we are in a world with White Walkers and dragons...which I'm sure can also fly pretty damn fast.
But lets just say a raven can fly 80 mph or 128km/h...1,400km would take 10 hours and a dragon can fly pretty damn fast...lets say twice as fast. 5 hours.
Lets add in the time it takes for the runner to get to the wall (5 hours).
So possibly within 20 hours they get stuck on the rock surrounded and Dany shows up. I'm not even sure the book tells it like this or if its days I have no clue but based on what I know and the maps out there, I don't think this really requires any explanation of time gap.
And yeah, I'm not sure we want to watch anyone slowly travel across Westeros (in other examples of time gaps). Once you see them in the new location they were heading you can assume it took days/weeks
(Editted to be less dickish, and far nerdier.)
I've seen where GRRM has compared Westerose to South America in size. You can fit the entire continent of Europe into South America 3 times. Much much much larger than just Western Europe.
Most things I have seen say the wall to the southern tip would be about 3000 miles when you use the wall's 300 mile length as a guide. That actually works out well when comparing Westerose to South America's 4400 mile length since we aren't including the distance of the area north of the wall. Dragon Stone is nearly 2/3rd of the way south between the wall and the southern tip. Not less than half. Lets call it 1600 miles to be really conservative (1900 is probably more accurate). Even conservatively, thats twice the distance you calculate.
We'll say you are right and a Westerose, Citadel breeded, raven can travel 80mph. We are at 20 hours for the raven flight, with a conservative distance and a generous raven speed who never rests.
Dragons may indeed fly 160mph, but I can't even imagine sitting on top of a car for 10 hours with a 160 mph wind in my face. Thats F2 to F3 tornado speed winds. Now she is super girl capable of sustaining fire without pain....so I'll allow it. Thats 10 hours minimum. Add in a reasonable 4 hours for Gendry's run and we are at 34 hours, and that's being really generous with speeds and distances.
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So I'm off 14 hours, possibly!?
And I never knew 150 mph for a dragon would be considered a generous assumption. How fast do normal dragons fly?
Falcons fly well over 200 mph. And yeah I would hope a trained Westeros raven could fly 80mph if not faster!
Either way I don't think 20 hours or even 34 hours requires a major explanation in time gap. Obviously these weren't instantaneous events but it's not as if weeks had passed... we are talking a day and a half tops.
Interesting discussion but the overall point is explanations of time gaps shouldn't necessary for most of these events.
Nothing I had a problem with last episode would have been that big of deal on its own. I think the problem was having so much of it in one episode.
IMO, 34 hours is the bare minimum. I took 300 miles out of the distance. Doubled the speed of ravens vs real ones. Allowed the raven to fly as fast as it possibly can for 20 hours and never rest. And let Danny sit through f3 tornado speed winds for 10+ hours.
Also...falcons do not "fly" well over 200 mph. Divide that by 3. They can fall out of the sky at 200mph.
So... You think it is realistic for them to sit on a big rock, in sub-freezing temps, with no food, fire, shelter, for 34 hours, and still be able to move? IMO, even 20 hours would be a huge stretch. It seems like the only way it would be even slightly possible would be if they were dressed in many layers of furs/clothing, to retain body heat. In that case, they would not be able to move to fight.
That doesn't bother me toooo much as we've seen many many cases of people who should have frozen to death on GOT. Northerners and Freefolk have antifreeze for blood. Besides, Tormund kept them all warm. That's why Jon said he couldn't bend over to Danny when he verbally bent the knee.
I can buy them lasting 20 hours, 34 is really pushing it, more realistic 48 or more hours and its getting pretty unbelievable. Most unbelievable to me is a wet Jon snow making it to Eastwich.
Surviving...yes. Lasting 20 hours and having enough energy to fight at a high level....I'm dubious.
Dragons aren't realistic and neither are nightwalkers. It's a fantasy world lol
You post this very detailed explanation of why the writing was completely realistic....
Then, when someone rebuts your points, you go with this....
Then, when someone rebuts your points, you go with this....
My initial and detailed response was also making assumptions that would and could be realistic in a fantasy setting.
The rebuttals were mostly around the fact that Dany can't resist wind on a dragon moving 150mph or how a raven can't rly fly that fast.
So of course my response to most all of that is going to be a return to the fact that I initially made in that this is a fantasy world where things happen that don't happen in real life!
And having "up to" 20-34 hours unaccounted for is the least of my concerns
But my initial detailed response was just for fun! It was meant to start a discussion about the map/world and how big it rly is but also how quickly it can be traveled by these 'beats'. For instance, their ravens do not look like our ravens and they are trained to deliver messages extremely fast. I don't know if thats 60mph or 80mph or how much rest they need.
In fact in the books, there is a ton of references to distances that don't always add up because just like humans do on earth...they exaggerate and its hard sometimes to know how far or fast things are. Jon refers to the wall in the book as thousands of leagues long. Some take that as 1,000 but then there are references to 300 miles or less.
Then they talk about walking on foot from Winterfall to WEeteros in a a day but then some treks with armies take a fort night.
All of these responses are "for fun". The poster enjoys posting what they post. No need to disparage posters who debate the merits of a fictional story.
I'd have to go back and reread every Jon chapter to see if what you are saying is accurate. I was, recently, listening to a podcast, which detailed that the Wall is supposed to be approximately 7 stories tall, according to the descriptions. The speaker pointed out that it defies normal physics because pressure melts ice, and the bottom portions of the wall would be under huge amounts of pressure due to the weight of all the ice above it. But, GRRM has also made it clear that the wall has a significant magical component to it, so that gives him flexibility when it comes to the physics.
With that being said....I think GRRM does a pretty good job of figuring out the logistics accompanying his writing and making it realistic when considering time and distance. He has built an especially huge, incredibly detailed world, and it is a big undertaking to do that and not include some elements that are questionable.
Everyone who visits Winterfell walks on foot to Westeros in less than a day, since Winterfell is in Westeros. Maybe you meant Winterfell to KL. I'm 99.9% sure that no character has walked from Winterfell to KL in less than a day.
True, but IMO.... what makes the books and earlier seasons so great is that GRRM takes care to ground 95% of his world in real life physics. The books and episodes start off with very little fantasy elements. Swords kill, apples fall from trees, people get hungry, etc. Each fantasy element is revealed one at a time and he generally puts boundaries on that element to give it definition and rules. The show and book rarely suffer from superman syndrome. Danny can withstand fire and control Dragons. Her character is interesting because she's not going to pull an R2D2 and all of a sudden have the ability to levitate. She can die from an arrow or dagger at any point, and that keeps our attention. The men north of the wall can die at any point because they are men, that can freeze, facing a massive army, and are 1800 miles away from anybody that can help. That's interesting! That's suspenseful! The suspense peters out when they cant freeze and ground support can be called up in what seemed to be about 16 hours. That's good fantasy vs bad fantasy. Bad fantasy forces the audience to say things like "well its a fantasy world, anything can happen".
I gave you both of those things. I allowed for an 80mph raven that never rests, and a 160 mph dragon. I even took an hour off Gendry's sprint for you. Even with those gifts we are looking at a MINMUM of 34 hours, not "up to 20 or 34". What I argued against was that you have Westerose being 1/3rd the size that GRRM says it is and that Dragonstone is less than half way to the southern tip, when its almost 2/3rds of the way.
clicky
My apologies to the dead horse.
There's hundreds of westeros maps out there. All with difference interpretations of distances between points.
What you're referencing is one version of the westeros map. I literally looked at one map and the fact that it was overlayed parts of europes to ball park my distances. Maybe they aren't accurate in your eyes, so be it.
Here is an article that states it is between 24-36 hours. Using similar assumptions as us. The biggest really is they assume 50mph or a raven however they believe the dragons can go several hundred MPH not just 150. I had no idea people had calculated this out there and I was making broad assumptions in the moment on what I knew and I came up with 20 hours. So I'm 4 hours low on what some other source finds reasonable or 14 hours off from what you've calculated. The point once again is that it doesn't take days/weeeks but maybe a day or day and half
https://www.forbes.com/sites/insert...nes-supersonic-911-rescue-raven/#452e52173653
Quote from Director Alan Taylor
“We’ve got Gendry running back, ravens flying a certain distance, dragons having to fly back a certain distance…In terms of the emotional experience, [Jon and company] sort of spent one dark night on the island in terms of storytelling moments. We tried to hedge it a little bit with the eternal twilight up there north of The Wall. I think there was some effort to fudge the timeline a little bit by not declaring exactly how long we were there. I think that worked for some people, for other people it didn’t. They seemed to be very concerned about how fast a raven can fly but there’s a thing called plausible impossibilities, which is what you try to achieve, rather than impossible plausibilities.”
That quote pretty much confirms that the show just winged it and didn't really put much thought into the logistics. Which is exactly what everyone is griping about. Pretty disheartening response, but predictable.
It's pretty clear that this is what happened...
"So, if Dany has 3 dragons, it is going to be hard to come up with a scenario where she doesn't easily decimate the WW and their army. How do we even the odds a bit?"
"What if one of the dragons dies, and the Night King makes an undead dragon?"
"Great idea. I love it. So, now, we need to figure out a way to get Dany to take her dragons north of the wall, but not with her full army, just with her dragons"
"How about this?"
(then they came up with the stupid idea that 8 guys go north of the wall, including Jon, but without Ghost, to capture a Wite and bring it south of the wall. They get trapped and send someone to Dany so she can come rescue them.)
"That works."
"Well, there are some time/distance details that make the whole thing pretty implausible".
"**** it. The fans love us. We only have 8 more episodes to squeeze everything in. Let's just go with it."
Pretty much. Though I'm guessing the dragon dies and becomes a ice dragon in the books too. Hard to believe there's only one episode left this year.
Maybe.
It is possible that GRRM originally intended for that to happen, but has changed his story since then. It is also possible that it was entirely an HBO creation. We don't even know if the Night King exists in the books.
Very true. I think thats a good part of the reason GRRM is taking so long with the last 2 books. He's changing some stuff up. Its been so long since I've read the books, that its really surprising to think just how far behind the show the books are now. Danny hasn't even MET Tyrion, Arya is still training. Stannis is still alive. We know very little about the white walkers.
Hold on. The Night King isn't even in the books? The opening of the TV is the body parts in a circle with the white walker claiming the baby, right? Is that in the books?
All this time I've been waiting for the slowest zombies in Hollywood history to march their asses down south of the wall and wreck **** and their leader isn't even in the books? WTF????
All this time I've been waiting for the slowest zombies in Hollywood history to march their asses down south of the wall and wreck **** and their leader isn't even in the books? WTF????
Night King not in books yet. Most readers will tell you that it is likely that he will be but hasn't appeared yet. I'm fairly certain that he was part of the information that GRRM shared with HBO.
The opening scene is almost directly from the books. WW have appeared in the books. I don't think they have taken a baby yet, but I could be wrong.
p.s. I think the prevailing theory is that the WW are made by the Night King, and that he makes them by transforming a human baby into a WW. In the books, Craster (Gilly's father) lived north of the Wall, with a house full of wives/daughters and no sons. He sleeps with all of them, and if they get pregnant, females stay there and are raised by the other women. The boys disappear. It is possible that Craster kills them, but the suspicion is that he gives them to the Night King.
That would explain why there is not an army of WW, and where they come from. The origin of the Night King is a mystery, but there are some theories about it if you look around on the net.
That would explain why there is not an army of WW, and where they come from. The origin of the Night King is a mystery, but there are some theories about it if you look around on the net.