Where would we be if we had Bill Carmody still?

[Turk_rivals223269]

Given the last two years, some are questionining Collins' recruiting, coaching, etc., and wondering if Phillips pulled the trigger too early on Carmody.
While anyone can see that Collins spends a lot more energy on recruiting than Carmody ever did, the results aren't any better, if not worse.

I've read a lot of comments below to fire Collins, but at this point I think such comments are absurd. Collins definitely ought to be put on the warm seat though. As fans, we are paying thousands of dollars now under Collins, we deserve better.

 

[Mossreportdos]

With Carmody, we were undersized and less talented then everyone else in the conference. Now we have the talent and the size just not the right players in the right spots and our players are not improving. The last two years have been disheartening but I still have hope for the future. Playing with out a point guard or point guard depth has killed us for the last two seasons. Overall, I see players with much more talent on these teams, just maybe not leaders who have the hearts to fight and win.

 

[Jonny2TheP]

Oh God no, let's please not do this again.

 

[NUCat320]

Oh God no, let's please not do this again.

Why not?? Maybe someone will come up with a new argument and will change opinions.

 

[Medill90]

In Worcester Mass

 

[eastbaycat99]

Given the last two years, some are questionining Collins' recruiting, coaching, etc., and wondering if Phillips pulled the trigger too early on Carmody.
While anyone can see that Collins spends a lot more energy on recruiting than Carmody ever did, the results aren't any better, if not worse.

I've read a lot of comments below to fire Collins, but at this point I think such comments are absurd. Collins definitely ought to be put on the warm seat though. As fans, we are paying thousands of dollars now under Collins, we deserve better.

Turk, I think you set up a straw man. I don’t remember seeing any post suggesting the Cats should have retained Carmody. I did see a few saying Carmody had significant accomplishments at NU, but that is not the same thing.

 

[stpaulcat]

We should rehire Carmody and have two coaches. One for recruiting and one for coaching.

 

[catsattackfor3]

Sigh....the question is should Collins be here long term. We wont have to worry about him replacing Coach K though

 

[hdhntr1]

Given the last two years, some are questionining Collins' recruiting, coaching, etc., and wondering if Phillips pulled the trigger too early on Carmody.
While anyone can see that Collins spends a lot more energy on recruiting than Carmody ever did, the results aren't any better, if not worse.

I've read a lot of comments below to fire Collins, but at this point I think such comments are absurd. Collins definitely ought to be put on the warm seat though. As fans, we are paying thousands of dollars now under Collins, we deserve better.

With the overall better recruiting in the BIG and better coaches, I think we would be having more and more trouble competing. And we would never have been to the Dance

 

[hdhntr1]

With Carmody, we were undersized and less talented then everyone else in the conference. Now we have the talent and the size just not the right players in the right spots and our players are not improving. The last two years have been disheartening but I still have hope for the future. Playing with out a point guard or point guard depth has killed us for the last two seasons. Overall, I see players with much more talent on these teams, just maybe not leaders who have the hearts to fight and win.

Well put. The difference between us dancing this year and where we are is about 15 pts. As badly as we have played and yet that is all that separates us from our goals. To be sure, we do not have "IT" this year. Law tries to be that end of game guy but while he is a very good player, he is out of his depth. Not sure if we have the guy on the roster right now but we do have many of the other pieces. As bad as we have looked, we really are not that far away.

 

[IdahoAlum]

Well put. The difference between us dancing this year and where we are is about 15 pts. As badly as we have played and yet that is all that separates us from our goals. To be sure, we do not have "IT" this year. Law tries to be that end of game guy but while he is a very good player, he is out of his depth. Not sure if we have the guy on the roster right now but we do have many of the other pieces. As bad as we have looked, we really are not that far away.

Far away from what? Last place again next year? When we return absolutely zero double-figure scorers? Tell me exactly who on next year's roster is good enough to be a third-team pre-season all-conference selection? We are basically starting from scratch next year, hoping some of our sophomores can double their points-per game production in order to get into double figures, and putting faith in our two signed and one-as-yet-to-sign freshmen. Right now we are a l-o-n-g way from anywhere this program would like to be.

 

[Curdog7]

Far away from what? Last place again next year? When we return absolutely zero double-figure scorers? Tell me exactly who on next year's roster is good enough to be a third-team pre-season all-conference selection? We are basically starting from scratch next year, hoping some of our sophomores can double their points-per game production in order to get into double figures, and putting faith in our two signed and one-as-yet-to-sign freshmen. Right now we are a l-o-n-g way from anywhere this program would like to be.

Gained will be NU’s best player. Could make 3rd team BIG if he continues to improve

 

[willycat]

Gained will be NU’s best player. Could make 3rd team BIG if he continues to improve

Only if he plays on the defensive end of the floor.

 

[hdhntr1]

Gained will be NU’s best player. Could make 3rd team BIG if he continues to improve

I would add Turner to the mix. If we have a true PG, he would likely be playing the position he is best suited for

 

[NUCat320]

We are basically starting from scratch next year, hoping some of our sophomores can double their points-per game production in order to get into double figures, and putting faith in our two signed and one-as-yet-to-sign freshmen. Right now we are a l-o-n-g way from anywhere this program would like to be.

To be clear, if this year’s freshmen double their point production in their sophomore years, they will average 8.6, 6.8, and 3.2 ppg.

But by all means, let’s just expect Beran to step in and average 14.

 

[ubercat]

Well, technically we'd still be in Evanston.

 

[Mr Wickerpark]

With the overall better recruiting in the BIG and better coaches, I think we would be having more and more trouble competing. And we would never have been to the Dance

without taphorn and sanjay, collins doest dance

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

without taphorn and sanjay, collins doest dance

Or without the 4 primary players that CCC actually did recruit.

 

[willycat]

without taphorn and sanjay, collins doest dance

Please!

 

[Pukecat]

Please!

Or without the 4 primary players that CCC actually did recruit.

Yes, it's true, though. Collins put Carmody's remaining players to good use and brought in the main ingredients that we needed.

Collins was good at bridging the two teams into one unit. Now that he has all of his own guys, things have not worked out. Brown and Vassar were bad gambles. It was a leap to think Brown was going to be able to transition from a ball dominant, shoot first guard who had a questionable long distance stroke. Vassar had an itinerant H.S. career that gave everybody here some pause (well, except Turk and E Cat, I think?).

Now, Falzon and Rap, that was just bad luck. Both should have been consistent role players the last two years.

 

[olsh]

Given the last two years, some are questionining Collins' recruiting, coaching, etc., and wondering if Phillips pulled the trigger too early on Carmody.
While anyone can see that Collins spends a lot more energy on recruiting than Carmody ever did, the results aren't any better, if not worse.

I've read a lot of comments below to fire Collins, but at this point I think such comments are absurd. Collins definitely ought to be put on the warm seat though. As fans, we are paying thousands of dollars now under Collins, we deserve better.

Our conference record would probably be about what it is right now.

But we wouldn't have gone to the NCAA Tournament. Not even close.

 

[phatcat_rivals223240]

Sigh....the question is should Collins be here long term. We wont have to worry about him replacing Coach K though

Coach K is 72 but looks like he could continue for 20 years

 

[phatcat_rivals223240]

I think Carmody had plateaued and regressed, but I've never understood the blow fest about CCC recruiting

Hearn Demps Crawford Shurna Thompson Coble Moore. Are his guys somehow better? Not seeing it.

Admittedly, BC would get like one good guy a year but I'm not seeing any appreciable difference, casual (bandwagon) fan that I am

 

[mikewebb68]

I think Carmody had plateaued and regressed, but I've never understood the blow fest about CCC recruiting

Hearn Demps Crawford Shurna Thompson Coble Moore. Are his guys somehow better? Not seeing it.

Admittedly, BC would get like one good guy a year but I'm not seeing any appreciable difference, casual (bandwagon) fan that I am

Gonna guess if we put a list together of ALL the guys recruited under Carmody and all the players receuited under CC thus far, that Catmody's ratio of hits to misses would be significantly lower. Some feel free to prove me wrong!

 

[phatcat_rivals223240]

Gonna guess if we put a list together of ALL the guys recruited under Carmody and all the players receuited under CC thus far, that Catmody's ratio of hits to misses would be significantly lower. Some feel free to prove me wrong!

Yeah, but CCC's number of apologists for misses is > BCs
BC is not the answer. He took us from an embarrassment to a respectable program, generally. No mean feat but a low bar.

With the fanfare, money and resources, CCC should have the program consistently doing better, not one of 5 years.

Now, this isn't about Fire CCC. I don't feel like we could do better in the coaching market. I just want HIM to do better. He needs results, not excuses

 

[Pukecat]

Gonna guess if we put a list together of ALL the guys recruited under Carmody and all the players receuited under CC thus far, that Catmody's ratio of hits to misses would be significantly lower. Some feel free to prove me wrong!

Why shouldn't Collins be recruiting better? Carmody didn't like recruiting, he couldn't get guys through admissions, and he didn't have the new arena and under construction facilities that Collins has at his disposal. Collins has been recruiting on the new arena for several years since it was announced in... late 2016 or early 2017? One of Collins' stipulations for taking the job was to have more money for recruiting trips/expenses.

In other words, he should be way better than Carmody in recruiting, but the results have been mixed. Collins' best team was mostly his guys and it's stupefying why his teams since then aren't better.

He'd better figure it out, not because we would fire him. No, he needs to figure this out or his rising star will not be going anywhere. He could wind up in the Patriot League if he's not careful.

 

[Walker Fan]

No Vic Law, Bryant McIntosh or Derek Pardon who have been all-time NU performers who never would have been at NU but for Collins. No NCAA tournament appearance and 1 NCAA tourney win. No 45 year old head coach who is willing to recruit and get to the plate on 4 star recruits v. a 69 year old who never made an effort to recruit.

Yes, Collins has his flaws and too stubborn streak and too quick trips to the doghouse, but Carmody never was Big 10 coaching material. He was an Ivy League coach who copied Pete Carill’s game plan and never adjusted. Collins has shown in past year’s an ability to adjust based on his talent except for this year as he wants to let Law and Pardon end their storied careers on high notes so he does not want to play the freshmen long minutes.

 

[NJCat]

No Vic Law, Bryant McIntosh or Derek Pardon who have been all-time NU performers who never would have been at NU but for Collins. No NCAA tournament appearance and 1 NCAA tourney win. No 45 year old head coach who is willing to recruit and get to the plate on 4 star recruits v. a 69 year old who never made an effort to recruit.

Yes, Collins has his flaws and too stubborn streak and too quick trips to the doghouse, but Carmody never was Big 10 coaching material. He was an Ivy League coach who copied Pete Carill’s game plan and never adjusted. Collins has shown in past year’s an ability to adjust based on his talent except for this year as he wants to let Law and Pardon end their storied careers on high notes so he does not want to play the freshmen long minutes.

Well, BC does have one more "Big 10 COTY" Award than Collins......

 

[Pukecat]

.... he wants to let Law and Pardon end their storied careers on high notes so he does not want to play the freshmen long minutes.

I don't want to be mean, but in what way have their careers been "storied"? Neither of them would be a star on a Duke, Carolina, Kansas, and so on and so forth. They're very solid and Big Ten starting caliber, but not "storied."

Joe Ruklick had a storied career. Billy McKinney. Evan Eschmeyer. I don't put Law and Pardon in that category, sorry.

 

[mikewebb68]

Why shouldn't Collins be recruiting better? Carmody didn't like recruiting, he couldn't get guys through admissions, and he didn't have the new arena and under construction facilities that Collins has at his disposal. Collins has been recruiting on the new arena for several years since it was announced in... late 2016 or early 2017? One of Collins' stipulations for taking the job was to have more money for recruiting trips/expenses.

In other words, he should be way better than Carmody in recruiting, but the results have been mixed. Collins' best team was mostly his guys and it's stupefying why his teams since then aren't better.

He'd better figure it out, not because we would fire him. No, he needs to figure this out or his rising star will not be going anywhere. He could wind up in the Patriot League if he's not careful.

I agree that he should be way better than Carmody in recruting, and based on rankings, so far that is the case. I was merely responding to people who were somehow indicating that it was Carmody who had better talent...

And Collins will never end up in a mid-major league. His star is only rising from here.

 

[Titanium999]

We need three guards next year

 

[eastbaycat99]

I agree that he should be way better than Carmody in recruting, and based on rankings, so far that is the case. I was merely responding to people who were somehow indicating that it was Carmody who had better talent...

And Collins will never end up in a mid-major league. His star is only rising from here.

For argument’s sake, let’s assume next year is a rebuilding year, with the Cats finishing below .500 ( a pretty plausible prediction), and the following year (20-21) the injury bug hits or the conference is really good, like this year, and the Cats finish in the bottom fourth of the league again. At that point, he would have been coach for 8 years with one winning season. Is his star still rising then, and if the administration decided he needed to move on, where would he go that wasn’t a mid major?

 

[hdhntr1]

Yes, it's true, though. Collins put Carmody's remaining players to good use and brought in the main ingredients that we needed.

Collins was good at bridging the two teams into one unit. Now that he has all of his own guys, things have not worked out. Brown and Vassar were bad gambles. It was a leap to think Brown was going to be able to transition from a ball dominant, shoot first guard who had a questionable long distance stroke. Vassar had an itinerant H.S. career that gave everybody here some pause (well, except Turk and E Cat, I think?).

Now, Falzon and Rap, that was just bad luck. Both should have been consistent role players the last two years.

Vassar and Brown were both attempts to build in depth to the PG position at a time when PG recruiting would be extremely difficult because of the success of BMac. Healthy Falzon and Rap would likely be more than just role players and with them Taylor is likely not brought in. Some is an attempt to take care of a depth issue and some is just bad luck

 

[hdhntr1]

Given the last two years, some are questionining Collins' recruiting, coaching, etc., and wondering if Phillips pulled the trigger too early on Carmody.
While anyone can see that Collins spends a lot more energy on recruiting than Carmody ever did, the results aren't any better, if not worse.

I've read a lot of comments below to fire Collins, but at this point I think such comments are absurd. Collins definitely ought to be put on the warm seat though. As fans, we are paying thousands of dollars now under Collins, we deserve better.

13 years was not too early.

 

[TejasCat]

And Collins will never end up in a mid-major league. His star is only rising from here.

He seems to be on the path of Johnny Dawkins (who made a sweet sixteen at Stanford), and who now coaches at UCF. The data seems to support that. I hope the data is wrong. Dawkins even had a top 15 recruiting class and many top 100 players.

 

[NJCat]

He seems to be on the path of Johnny Dawkins (who made a sweet sixteen at Stanford), and who now coaches at UCF. The data seems to support that. I hope the data is wrong. Dawkins even had a top 15 recruiting class and many top 100 players.

Good comparison. Maybe he ends up at Holy Cross.....

 

[Pukecat]

Vassar and Brown were both attempts to build in depth to the PG position at a time when PG recruiting would be extremely difficult because of the success of BMac. Healthy Falzon and Rap would likely be more than just role players and with them Taylor is likely not brought in. Some is an attempt to take care of a depth issue and some is just bad luck

You can't make excuses for poor recruiting, and you can't "blame" the success of incumbent starters at certain positions. If that were true, then no school could recruit a position in which they have a young starter.

 

[mikewebb68]

He seems to be on the path of Johnny Dawkins (who made a sweet sixteen at Stanford), and who now coaches at UCF. The data seems to support that. I hope the data is wrong. Dawkins even had a top 15 recruiting class and many top 100 players.

What data? The fact that he is the fastest coach in program history to 100 wins?

The only way he is leaving this program is for a better opportunity (e.g. Duke). Book it.

 

[mikewebb68]

For argument’s sake, let’s assume next year is a rebuilding year, with the Cats finishing below .500 ( a pretty plausible prediction), and the following year (20-21) the injury bug hits or the conference is really good, like this year, and the Cats finish in the bottom fourth of the league again. At that point, he would have been coach for 8 years with one winning season. Is his star still rising then, and if the administration decided he needed to move on, where would he go that wasn’t a mid major?

Not happening.

 

[Turk_rivals223269]

Turk, I think you set up a straw man. I don’t remember seeing any post suggesting the Cats should have retained Carmody. I did see a few saying Carmody had significant accomplishments at NU, but that is not the same thing.

Dunno but it's not out of bounds to ask the question. Certainly, we are no better off it appears. I for one believe Dr Phillips made the right decision but, as it turned out, it wasn't anything 'wow'.