Why an "ordinary" fan is not buying season tickets

rmattox

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Nov 26, 2014
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Not sure what you are saying here, ram. If you are saying UK goes overboard to support Title IX gender equity initiatives I have to disagree. The best data on this subject can be found here. I think the best single metric is the "scholarship money ratio" between men and women sports. Just grab bagging a few of UK's peers...

UK: 58:44 (The 1% difference is due to the somewhat rare men and women combined Rifle team. Per Wiki only 23 schools and just 6 P5 schools sponsor Rifle)

SC: 53:47
MO: 56:44
AR: 54:46
TN: 56:44
GA: 47:53 (That's right. More scholarship money for women than men)
FL: 49:51 (That's right. More scholarship money for women than men)
UofL: 50:50

There is little doubt in my mind UK could do a lot better here if they wanted to. FWIW, to my knowledge, while there have been some winning lawsuits by individuals against institutions, the Department of Education has never withheld a nickel of Federal funding for Title IX "violations". And that includes the recent "outbreak" of on campus sexual harassment or violence allegations which are Title IX violations.

Peace
Forgive me for venting. I know the following would never be done, BUT there are ways to make Football the absolute priority if the administration chose to do so (like Bama and other Football schools). I'm confident other schools do such things.

Essentially, what I'm questioning is if UK offers more sports than necessary thus has to spend more of what could be spent on Football on lesser sports in order to comply w T9. If UK funded only those sports required by the SEC, budget equally between men/women, and then only funded sports other than Football (and, bball) as necessary to ensure some semblance of equity, would there be more money to spend on Football? Did the renovation of CWS fall within the purview of T9 ?

I understand Title 9 as I've had to deal with the issues in the public schools (obviously not to the extent that UK guys have to deal with it). I understand equity. I understand being slapped on the wrist by T9. I also understand there are creative ways of compliance. Don't get me wrong, but the T9 bean counters don't understand, nor do they care about the real issues/needs that administrators have to deal with, but there are ways to get things done that you know need to be done, yet still be within the bounds of T9.

Wild, you and Fuzz have a good handle on this. My frustrations come from a Football fan's position. As far as I'm concerned, the lion's share of the available $ should go to Football. Identify what needs to be done to make Ky a Football power; figure out how much funding is necessary; allocate that funding, then take an equal amount and spread it out among all the other sports....then do only what is done to bring the ath program within the limits of minimum compliance with T9
 

WildCard

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May 29, 2001
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Forgive me for venting. I know the following would never be done, BUT there are ways to make Football the absolute priority if the administration chose to do so (like Bama and other Football schools). I'm confident other schools do such things.

Essentially, what I'm questioning is if UK offers more sports than necessary thus has to spend more of what could be spent on Football on lesser sports in order to comply w T9. If UK funded only those sports required by the SEC, budget equally between men/women, and then only funded sports other than Football (and, bball) as necessary to ensure some semblance of equity, would there be more money to spend on Football? Did the renovation of CWS fall within the purview of T9 ?

I understand Title 9 as I've had to deal with the issues in the public schools (obviously not to the extent that UK guys have to deal with it). I understand equity. I understand being slapped on the wrist by T9. I also understand there are creative ways of compliance. Don't get me wrong, but the T9 bean counters don't understand, nor do they care about the real issues/needs that administrators have to deal with, but there are ways to get things done that you know need to be done, yet still be within the bounds of T9.

Wild, you and Fuzz have a good handle on this. My frustrations come from a Football fan's position. As far as I'm concerned, the lion's share of the available $ should go to Football. Identify what needs to be done to make Ky a Football power; figure out how much funding is necessary; allocate that funding, then take an equal amount and spread it out among all the other sports....then do only what is done to bring the ath program within the limits of minimum compliance with T9
ram, I don't think anybody has a "good handle" on Title IX. [laughing] It is one thing to require gender equity in athletics but quite another to impose a quasi-legal process that often is in conflict with statutory law. Like many Government initiatives, well intended but poorly executed.

I have no idea what the minimum requirements for Title IX athletic "compliance" are but they are apparently pretty loose. As I said no school has ever lost a nickel of federal funding for "non-compliance". FWIW here are the numbers of women teams offered by some of UK's counterparts:

UK: 58:44 (9 women's teams excluding co-ed Rifle)

SC: 53:47 (10)
MO: 56:44 (9)
AR: 54:46 (9)
TN: 56:44 (9)
GA: 47:53 (10)
FL: 49:51 (10)
UofL: 50:50 (11)

I really don't get the absolute silliness in this thread about UK putting too much "football money" in other sports. The fact is that football (and to a lesser extent men's basketball) essentially fund ALL "non-revenue" sports at ALL institutions.

Football related revenue, regardless of "how and where" it is accounted for in the books, is far and away the biggest revenue source of any athletic department. The real question is: "How committed is the institution (and their conference) to gender equity"? I say conference because the SEC could do a lot better; for example, they do not even sponsor soccer. OTOH, the SEC does sponsor Equestrian but UK, of all places, does not have an equestrian team (whatever that means)!

Peace
 

JW PRPcoach

All-Conference
Nov 20, 2006
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To add to WC
The SEC - in a effort to balance title 9 - has women's soccer but not men's
Some SEC schools, like LSU for example, play men's soccer as a club sport - offering zero scholarship $$ and playing what would be similar to a DII schedule.
Other SEC schools, like here at UK, still have NCAA teams but play in other conf. UK men play in conf USA.
They give some partial schollys but can be competitive with less on a ride in a smaller conf.
The SEC in women's soccer is quite competitive - basically 2nd to the ACC
The men would quickly do the same, but the SEC continues to not sponsor it, and the only logical reason is to help schools with title 9 balance
 

ZZBlueComet

All-Conference
Feb 4, 2009
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I had them for many years and gave them up Joker's last year - we all have our breaking point. I think folks, similar to me, who's gone to every home game for 10, 20, 30 or more years, have a right to quit contributing for what we get.
 

WildCard

All-American
May 29, 2001
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To add to WC
The SEC - in a effort to balance title 9 - has women's soccer but not men's
Some SEC schools, like LSU for example, play men's soccer as a club sport - offering zero scholarship $$ and playing what would be similar to a DII schedule.
Other SEC schools, like here at UK, still have NCAA teams but play in other conf. UK men play in conf USA.
They give some partial schollys but can be competitive with less on a ride in a smaller conf.
The SEC in women's soccer is quite competitive - basically 2nd to the ACC
The men would quickly do the same, but the SEC continues to not sponsor it, and the only logical reason is to help schools with title 9 balance
I swear I did not know that! I just ***-umed that both men and women played in CUSA.

I can understand the SEC not sponsoring men's soccer for "equity" purposes but, quite frankly, that is a pretty big sport to not sponsor just to trick the numbers. The real answer is to simply offer more sports on the women's side that would "not be missed" on the men's side (e.g., field hockey, rowing, lacrosse, etc.). JMO

Peace
 

fuzz77

All-Conference
Sep 19, 2012
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Forgive me for venting. I know the following would never be done, BUT there are ways to make Football the absolute priority if the administration chose to do so (like Bama and other Football schools). I'm confident other schools do such things.

Essentially, what I'm questioning is if UK offers more sports than necessary thus has to spend more of what could be spent on Football on lesser sports in order to comply w T9. If UK funded only those sports required by the SEC, budget equally between men/women, and then only funded sports other than Football (and, bball) as necessary to ensure some semblance of equity, would there be more money to spend on Football? Did the renovation of CWS fall within the purview of T9 ?

I understand Title 9 as I've had to deal with the issues in the public schools (obviously not to the extent that UK guys have to deal with it). I understand equity. I understand being slapped on the wrist by T9. I also understand there are creative ways of compliance. Don't get me wrong, but the T9 bean counters don't understand, nor do they care about the real issues/needs that administrators have to deal with, but there are ways to get things done that you know need to be done, yet still be within the bounds of T9.

Wild, you and Fuzz have a good handle on this. My frustrations come from a Football fan's position. As far as I'm concerned, the lion's share of the available $ should go to Football. Identify what needs to be done to make Ky a Football power; figure out how much funding is necessary; allocate that funding, then take an equal amount and spread it out among all the other sports....then do only what is done to bring the ath program within the limits of minimum compliance with T9
ram, there really is no such thing as "minimum compliance". In theory minimum compliance would be just enough to keep from being sued... With Title IX everything is relative to everything else you do. If your men's teams travel on yellow school buses, then you can require that the women's teams do the same. But if the men's teams take private chartered flights...you got to treat the girls the same. LSU got in trouble some years ago because they wouldn't allow their volleyball team to travel to Hawaii for a tournament but they had allowed the men's basketball team to go there.
UK offers men's soccer and co-ed rifle that aren't SEC sports. If you took the entire budgets for those two sports together, eliminated them and gave all the money to football it would be a drop in the bucket for football and you would eliminate opportunities for about 25 kids.
UK has made commitments to football in the past, when CWS was built it was one of the finest in the country, UK was one of the first in the SEC to have an indoor practice facility. But the commitment that is needed most is along term from big money donors who in the past step up for a couple of years here, there, don't see the progress they want and retreat.

We are both on the same team as UK football fans. I desperately want them to become winners and make it easy to get excited to go to CWS on those Saturdays in the Fall. I don't know that just throwing money at the problem will do it. UK spends a lot more on football than a lot of other schools including the one 70 miles to the West. UK has, and always has had better facilities than many others that have done well in the sport.
I don't know man. I really think a lot of it is the toxic environment that exists in Lexington for UK football. I think about the story of Randall Cobb going to Red Lobster in Lexington right after they had just beaten someone. The waiter/waitress making small talk with Cobb, not knowing who he was made a remark like..."yeah, they won but they'll return to sucking soon enough". I've known/talked with several guys who have played there and they all have similar stories. I think that crap takes its toll.
It takes a collection of a few special players, team leaders to get past all that crap. Coaches can only do so much.

Sadly, there can only be 1 top commitment and that commitment is always going to be dictated by external forces, not the administration. If tomorrow the administration (Mitch) altered the budget to parallel spending at Bama (7x basketball), Auburn (4.5xbasketball), Georgia(4.4xbasketball), etc he would be fired on the spot. Hell, Georgia spends less on football+basketball than does UK but where it is pretty much split 50/50 at UK, it is 85/15 at Georgia. Auburn spends more on football than UK spends on football+basketball... Arkansas spends about the same combined but more than 75% goes to football. The closest comparison to UK I could find was Vandy that only spends 2.5x on football.
I've argued with people on here for years who want to blame Mitch for all of this. Mitch can be replaced and his predecessor would face the same challenges.
 
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Tskware

Heisman
Jan 26, 2003
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I read the above and it is well stated. However, at what point does a land grant university say "enough is enough", is it really worth it to an institution of higher learning to have a good football team if you have to throw $100M per year at it? At some point you reach a point of complete idiocy - football is just not that important to Lexington, the Comm of Kentucky, the life of UK or any school.
 

gojvc

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Feb 5, 2005
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Hard to argue with that really. Frankly, Stoops have had a lot more facilities to recruit with as well. But still, it is really hard to see the great leap forward on the field. As just one example, Phil Steele chooses four complete all conference teams for each conference , i.e., 1st team , 2nd team, etc., and includes specialists. In the SEC therefore, four complete teams is about 50 players or so, and he has TWO Kentucky players on it, Toth at 2nd team center and McGinniss at 4th team PK. Now that is just one man's opinion, but Steele is a highly informed opinion, and so where is all the great talent recruited by this staff? Even Vandy, Mizzou and USC have more players ranked on the first four teams by Steele than we do.

That being said, I will be in the stands for the opener. Just one more example of the definition of insanity . . .
While I'm not rendering a final judgement, I'm beginning to wonder about all the recruiting hype myself. How are we this thin on the front seven in year four? While we've decided not to get season tickets this year I'm still on board with CMS. But it's time start producing some more wins.
 

rmattox

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Nov 26, 2014
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Sadly, there can only be 1 top commitment and that commitment is always going to be dictated by external forces, not the administration. If tomorrow the administration (Mitch) altered the budget to parallel spending at Bama (7x basketball), Auburn (4.5xbasketball), Georgia(4.4xbasketball), etc he would be fired on the spot. Hell, Georgia spends less on football+basketball than does UK but where it is pretty much split 50/50 at UK, it is 85/15 at Georgia. Auburn spends more on football than UK spends on football+basketball... Arkansas spends about the same combined but more than 75% goes to football. The closest comparison to UK I could find was Vandy that only spends 2.5x on football.
I've argued with people on here for years who want to blame Mitch for all of this. Mitch can be replaced and his predecessor would face the same challenges.

Thus the crux of the problem. Compared to the competition, the institution does not have the same level of commitment to competing in the sport that matters in the conference. Appreciate the info!
 
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theoledog

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Nov 21, 2008
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I read the above and it is well stated. However, at what point does a land grant university say "enough is enough", is it really worth it to an institution of higher learning to have a good football team if you have to throw $100M per year at it? At some point you reach a point of complete idiocy - football is just not that important to Lexington, the Comm of Kentucky, the life of UK or any school.
I agree with you... At some point, in some States, at some schools the "point" has or is reaching critical mass .... Is it worth 2K (two tickets) per year for me to watch live sport? For many the answer is NO as evidenced by declining attendance... Sport has sold its soul to TV... TV calls the shots... New paradigm.... I can watch and enjoy live sport for much less but yes at a lesser level.... Still root for and watch The Cats but it's TV for me...