A look at UK, UL & FSU recruiting

[BigBlue8]

You can draw your own conclusions about the recruiting rankings, but to me, this shows what a tremendous coach Petrino is. I know that he has a lot of unsightly baggage, but that is the only reason that UK could have hired one of the best coaches, in the business. As one poster said, I would be hiring him to coach my football team not to be my preacher. While he may be an Ahole, and someone that you wouldn’t want to be close friends with, that can be said about a lot of coaches. As far as we know, he has kept his nose clean since Arkansas. When you look at the recruiting rankings, there is no reason to believe that BP wouldn’t have had the same success at UK that he is having at UL. Here are rivals rankings.


2013 ranking FSU 10, UK 29, UL41

2014 ranking FSU 10, UK 29, UL41

2015 ranking FSU 10, UK 29, UL41

2016 ranking FSU 10, UK 29, UL41

Avg FSU 4.75, UK 27.5, UL 36.25

 

[vhcat70]

Thanks for sharing. Sounds right.

 

[CB3UK]

I think you copy and pasted the same rankings each year. Fix that, but your point still remains correct.

 

[qwesley]

Point is very valid but if you add their highly ranked transfers the rankings would be close to even I bet. Coaching matters.

 

[Randy Bob]

Just goes to show Petrino is the best coach around..

 

[UKfan2151]

Petrino certainly gets more out of less than any coach I've ever seen in college football.

 

[Audobaby]

Here's the Rivals' recruiting rankings between UK and UL dating back to 2013.

2013:

UK 29
UL 41

2014:

UK 18
UL 36

2015:

UL 32
UK 34

2016:

UK 29
UL 36

With the exception of 2015 when our class fell apart in weeks leading up to signing day, Stoops has out-recruited Petrino.

Yet, they have the leading Heisman candidate and may very well advance to the college football playoffs. Meanwhile, UK is in freefall mode, trots out a defense that may be the worst of our lifetimes, and appears destined for a two-win season.

The quality of their coaching staff vs. ours couldn't be more readily apparent. Specifically, Stoops, Eliot, Schlarman, and Brumbaugh have been colossal disappointments.

 

[gg4uk]

From 2002~2009 I used to have a metric for each team in D1A football level of player talent. With those rating I could measure performance of coaching. Every year those coaches at the bottom of that ranking were always fired. Bob Petrino every year was at the top. Likewise Chris Peterson from Boise, Urban Meyer, Jeff Tedford, Brian Kelly and others. But, Petrino was always in the top 3 of offensive coaching. 1.0 was the NCAA average. Which meant that a team was performing to their talent level. Petrino was always in the top 2% with a rating around 1.85

He's one of the best coaches in the game. Period. If he were at a school like USC, LSU or Miami they would be untouchable.

 

[Blue Wildcat]

Here's the Rivals' recruiting rankings between UK and UL dating back to 2013.

2013:

UK 29
UL 41

2014:

UK 18
UL 36

2015:

UL 32
UK 34

2016:

UK 29
UL 36

With the exception of 2015 when our class fell apart in weeks leading up to signing day, Stoops has out-recruited Petrino.

Yet, they have the leading Heisman candidate and may very well advance to the college football playoffs. Meanwhile, UK is in freefall mode, trots out a defense that may be the worst of our lifetimes, and appears destined for a two-win season.

The quality of their coaching staff vs. ours couldn't be more readily apparent. Specifically, Stoops, Eliot, Schlarman, and Brumbaugh have been colossal disappointments.

Hopefully someone can get on the coaches call in show, share this information, and ask why our highly rated kids haven't developed at the same rate as the other schools mentioned above.

 

[truebluewildcat_rivals34254]

Like I said in another post.

Sneaky P figured it out long ago. You can be average everywhere but the QB.

Also, you don't have to get a lot of 4 stars or a couple 5 stars. You just have to make sure that the 3 stars have the natural speed and athleticism to match those types of guys. Then you hire good position coaches and coordinators to develop those guys to be succesful

While CMS has been locking down the in state talent, fighting the big 10 for Meyer n Harbaugh left overs across the river, and going toe to toe with Nick Saban for an NT and RB (two positions that won't change a program), Sneaky P has been raiding the left over diamonds in the rough in Florida, UGA, SC.

It's comical. He wasted no time on Elam and Harris, he let CMS battle Saban and he went on down to SEC country and found him a game changing, program lifting, once in a generation (for a program like "da ville") heisman caliber QB....

Petrino gets it, always has.

 

[Yahtzee43]

To the OP, you make some excellent points.

 

[cewsmith]

UK has had some decent recruiting classes due to the SEC but consistently near the bottom.
UL has had that disadvantage of lesser conferences. Not so anymore and with Petrino their recruiting will rise. UK has had a few very good classes riding on the coat tails of Stoops- not sure how long this will last.

 

[marmup]

It also goes to show that recruiting rankings don't mean much. If you are getting all 5 star and upper 4 star players, you are always going to be good. But if you get mid 4 star players on down to 2 star, it is all talent evaluation. The rating services can't possibly rate all these players. It says UL staffs under Strong and Petrino are very good at talent evaluation and player development. UL had 10 players drafted a couple years ago. I'm pretty sure that class would rank top 10 if recruiting classes were reranked.

 

[RFSCard]

Very good posts in this thread. We are all use to basketball recruiting which is very transparent these days with the summer AAU circuit. In basketball it's far easier to evaluate individual skills. iLineman in particular are hard to evaluate. Once you get beyond the obvious 5 stars that Bama, OSU, FSU, etc. signs it's all about talent evaluation and player development.

 

[BigBlue8]

I think you copy and pasted the same rankings each year. Fix that, but your point still remains correct.

Actually, this is the first time I have posted recruiting rankings. But you are right others have posted UK & UL recruiting rankings. I thought it would be interesting to also show FSU rankings, since UL destroyed them yesterday.

 

[NavyCat88]

bottom line.......coaching counts.....experience counts.....player eval, retention and development counts. All the "Jimmys & Joes" crowd give UK's HC an out by saying "we don't have the talent." Problem is we will never know because we don't have the coaching.

 

[NewWildcatOrder]

Looks like Mark Richt and Kevin Sumlin and some other coaches should get at least partial credit for this Louisville Renaissance....http://www.espn.com/blog/acc/post/_/id/71000/louisville-going-the-sec-transfer-route

 

[CB3UK]

Actually, this is the first time I have posted recruiting rankings. But you are right others have posted UK & UL recruiting rankings. I thought it would be interesting to also show FSU rankings, since UL destroyed them yesterday.

I think you misunderstood me. I was pointing out you accidentally posted the same ranking for each team each year. See audobaby's post above. Like I said though, your point was still correct. Coaching makes a Huge difference.

 

[4UK]

What stands out as much as anything is what a monumental bust the 2014 class has turned out to be. These guys are juniors, there should be some production. But Barker, Elam, West and Snodgrass are all HUGE 4-star busts. Of the other 4 stars, Ware is average and Boom is obviously very good. High 3 stars Edwards and Horton have also been disappointing, with Edwards average/below average and Horton below average at best.

They did hit with Garrett Johnson, but then you have Randolph, Walker, Tubman, Bone, Long, LaRubbio, T.V. Williams, and Firios who were expected to be contributors and all fall in the below average/bust range. Even Dorian Baker is average at best (and that's probably being generous) after looking so promising early.

It's just hard to overstate how bad that class has turned out and is a huge part of why Stoops has failed.

 

[megablue]

I didn't look at FSU, but I reviewed the recruiting drop-down blocks from this site for the 2013 thru 2016 classes and noted that Kentucky has signed 29 kids from Ohio, versus Louisville with only 6.

Tate Leavitt and Jordon Bonner are listed with their JUCO school locations, but both are from Ohio high schools. Also, I couldn't find where Love, Hart and Laster were listed, but they are from Ohio, also. Accordingly, the KY count should probably be increased to 34 players.

The concentration by UK seems highly-significant to differentiate the classes between Kentucky and Louisville, at least in terms of geographic emphasis, if not talent.

Also, FWIW, Western does not have a single player from Ohio on its 2016 roster.

 

[WildCard]

What stands out as much as anything is what a monumental bust the 2014 class has turned out to be. These guys are juniors, there should be some production. But Barker, Elam, West and Snodgrass are all HUGE 4-star busts. Of the other 4 stars, Ware is average and Boom is obviously very good. High 3 stars Edwards and Horton have also been disappointing, with Edwards average/below average and Horton below average at best.

They did hit with Garrett Johnson, but then you have Randolph, Walker, Tubman, Bone, Long, LaRubbio, T.V. Williams, and Firios who were expected to be contributors and all fall in the below average/bust range. Even Dorian Baker is average at best (and that's probably being generous) after looking so promising early.

It's just hard to overstate how bad that class has turned out and is a huge part of why Stoops has failed.

Freddie Maggard had a pre-season piece that speculated CMS's future was tied to this class.

Peace

 

[howercat]

crying in my beer reading this..

 

[RUPPsRevenge1]

It shows while many of is beat our chest over slightly increased recruiting rankings, it means very little a ten point difference in rankings is well within the margin of error of that class actually panning out.

Petrino can coach ,plan and simple. Stoops hasn't shown that he can up to this point in his career.

 

[CardHack]

I make the argument on our board all the time that five star to me means finished product. Some kids are just born with a genetic sequence that says that as a 17 year old he really is of a physical maturity and God given athleticism that makes him like a 23 year old.

...but by the same token, when you get that kid that you evaluate on film who you think fits what your scheme is...that's a great pet skill for a coach to have and if you're not at Alabama, Florida or Texas that's the skill that gives you a quality coaching career. That's partly why we struggled last year, we had this remarkable talent in Lamar Jackson fit into an offense that we didn't run with players recruited to be in different offenses themselves. What they are doing after three games is sort of striking to me...because that caliber of zone read attack requires an exceptional amount of repetition across the board for the blocking schemes and I still maintain that Louisville's single most talented position unit is it's receiving corps. I really think Louisville's going to hurt some teams in the air as the season progresses.

 

[BigBlue8]

I think you misunderstood me. I was pointing out you accidentally posted the same ranking for each team each year. See audobaby's post above. Like I said though, your point was still correct. Coaching makes a Huge difference.

Roger that lol
I had it all correct in word with proper spacing and everything aligned. The spacing went to he!! when I tried to post it. When I went to correct it, I messed it all up.
Thanks

 

[willievic]

Thanks Cat Man, very telling stats. I think that most fans know that Petrino is one of the best offensive minds in football. However, there are other good offensive minds out there. He is not the only one.
I haven't given up on Stoops and some of his Troops, but if he doesn't win 6 games this year, he needs to go. No excuses.
Yes, regardless of what some fans say, UK will pay the money to get a good coach if Stoops doesn't pan out. It is obvious to me, that until you get a good, and I mean good OL who can block and give the QB time, our best bet is a scrambling QB who can move around, and also run. I think we have that in Johnson.
If I was Stoop, I would be recruiting that type of QB in the future, if he's still here.

OLD STOLL FIELD GUY!

 

[buckkiller]

PETRINO>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all other coachs besides Saban and Meyers

3rd best coach in nation!!
Hell imagine if he could recruit like Bama and OSU hell he might be the best coach in country then. Our AD Whiffed bigger then ****. He was pitched a under handed slow ball and he was holding the big fat RED whiffe ball bat and missed by a mile!

 

[KattieCat]

It also goes to show that recruiting rankings don't mean much. If you are getting all 5 star and upper 4 star players, you are always going to be good. But if you get mid 4 star players on down to 2 star, it is all talent evaluation. The rating services can't possibly rate all these players. It says UL staffs under Strong and Petrino are very good at talent evaluation and player development. UL had 10 players drafted a couple years ago. I'm pretty sure that class would rank top 10 if recruiting classes were reranked.

Couldn't agree with this more, it's a point I think a lot of people miss. It's the old look like Tarzan, play like Jane saying. But for successful coaches it's not just about the X's and O's.

 

[Dore95]

Stoops came in with what looked like a great plan - recruit the heck out of Ohio and sell those Midwestern kids on the allure of playing in the SEC. That was at a time when the Big 10 was down (Michigan sucked, Meyer had just been hired at OSU), and the SEC was really the only conference that mattered. If you're a kid in central Ohio, not recruited by OSU or Michigan, would you rather go to Purdue or Iowa or somewhere like that and play boring football that few cared about, or go to UK and play in the bright lights of the SEC? It seemed like a brilliant sales pitch. And it worked for a couple of years.

Flash forward four years and things have changed. Other than Alabama, the SEC has taken a big step back. With the resurgence of OSU and Michigan, the Big 10 is now the focus of a great deal of attention. And, the nearby ACC (and Louisville) has risen in prominence. For players outside the deep south, the allure of playing in the SEC is not what it was a few year sago.

Throw in the fact that Stoops has had little to no success on the field, or in developing the highly rated players he recruited. I would expect that whoever the next UK coach is will refocus UK's recruiting back to the south.

 

[JasonS.]

Can't really look at these numbers without factoring in attrition/transfers.

Louisville has loaded up on SEC transfers since Petrino/Grantham arrived ... while you need a separate thread to discuss how attrition has gutted much of Stoops' vaunted recruiting at Kentucky.

 

[JasonS.]

Looks like Mark Richt and Kevin Sumlin and some other coaches should get at least partial credit for this Louisville Renaissance....http://www.espn.com/blog/acc/post/_/id/71000/louisville-going-the-sec-transfer-route

Yes what you said. Missed it before.

 

[Nuke99m.]

All good points but also the effect of one GREAT player can skew the results. Jackson is a special player. UL would still be a good team without him but Jackson makes them a great team.

 

[cat_in_the_hat]

I think there is also a part to recruiting that is hard to measure and perhaps goes unnoticed. In any sport, you have to know how to assemble a team. This doesn't necessarily mean the highest rated class. It means that you know how to put together the pieces so that you have what you need to accomplish your style of play and game plan. The best coaches in any sport seem to know how to put the pieces together so that the sum of the parts is greater than the whole. We may be recruiting well by UK standards, but it doesn't appear as though the staff knows how to put the pieces together to build a team. We still have a lot of glaring inadequacies. I think there is more to recruiting than just rankings.

 

[PushupMan]

It also goes to show that recruiting rankings don't mean much. If you are getting all 5 star and upper 4 star players, you are always going to be good. But if you get mid 4 star players on down to 2 star, it is all talent evaluation. The rating services can't possibly rate all these players. It says UL staffs under Strong and Petrino are very good at talent evaluation and player development. UL had 10 players drafted a couple years ago. I'm pretty sure that class would rank top 10 if recruiting classes were reranked.

Very insightful post. UofL established a pipeline to Florida under Coach Schnellenberger in the 1980's and then added pipelines to the other deep south states (Georgia, Alabama, and Mississippi) under John L. Smith and Petrino V1. Hiring Coach Strong "refreshed" the Florida pipeline, and hiring Grantham strengthened the ties in the state of Georgia.

Schnellenberger's tenure at UofL began 31 years ago. The first quarterback he recruited to UofL is now the head coach of the Washington Redskins. The great players he recruited out of Florida have children, relatives and friends who know that Louisville is a good football program.

So the bottom line is that, over a generation and a half, UofL has established a network of coaches in the deep south that they trust. As a result, UofL's coaches know much better than any recruiting service which 2 and 3 star players can be developed into elite players at this level. And the players from the deep south that they don't yet know about they hear about through UofL's network of former players.

 

[Chuckinden]

In 1990, a friend of mine was Head Coach in the state championship game. I was at his house the night before and the phone rang. When he got off the phone, he said that was Coach Schnellenberger wishing me good luck tomorrow. I said, has Bill Curry called? He said no and then went on to tell me how making relationships with high school coaches can really make a difference in recruiting.

 

[PushupMan]

Can't really look at these numbers without factoring in attrition/transfers.

Louisville has loaded up on SEC transfers since Petrino/Grantham arrived ... while you need a separate thread to discuss how attrition has gutted much of Stoops' vaunted recruiting at Kentucky.

Loaded up would be a little bit of an exaggeration ... we have 3 former SEC players that transferred directly from other schools. Harvey-Clemons and Wiggins are from Georgia, played for Grantham there. Harvey-Clemons is a huge impact player, certainly. Wiggins adds depth as the 3rd cornerback in the nickel package. Fields is from TCU, another huge impact player. JaQuay Savage (Texas A&M transfer) adds depth at wide receiver (no catches so far this year).

Two other players who originally signed with SEC schools but then left and went to junior colleges are Alphonso Carter (originally at Tennessee) and Gary McCrae (redshirted at Georgia). Carter has played some on special teams, but McCrae has yet to see the field.

 

[dgtatu01]

I think there is also a part to recruiting that is hard to measure and perhaps goes unnoticed. In any sport, you have to know how to assemble a team. This doesn't necessarily mean the highest rated class. It means that you know how to put together the pieces so that you have what you need to accomplish your style of play and game plan. The best coaches in any sport seem to know how to put the pieces together so that the sum of the parts is greater than the whole. We may be recruiting well by UK standards, but it doesn't appear as though the staff knows how to put the pieces together to build a team. We still have a lot of glaring inadequacies. I think there is more to recruiting than just rankings.

This one of the biggest problems I see with Stoops. I have no clue what kind of team he is trying to build. I also see very little evidence that he knows what type of team he is building. Petrino says he will take anyone who is fast. He can teach them to play. Not sure what Stoops wants or what his vision is.

 

[Michigan Fan]

Javier Alexander, Jeremy Smith, Lamar Jackson, Brandon Radcliffe and Jaylon Smith accounted for all of Louisville TD this past Saturday...all are Petrino Recruits except Radcliffe...not a Transfer from another FBS School in the bunch.

 

[Michigan Fan]

As I always say...like Michigan State and TCU...Recruit to your system not to the Star Rating

 

[BMo643]

I think this whole idea that Stoops and Co are amazing recruiters has been drastically overblown by a lot of people even if you don't consider the lack of player development and simply look at the numbers. He had that flukey 2014 class but the 2013 and 2015 classes were good/not great and he seems destined to sign another class ranked somewhere between 30-45.

Also, rivals was kinder to Stoops' classes than the other sites. If you look at the 247 composite rankings its:

2013 - UK 34-UL-37
2014 - UK 22-UL-45
2015 - UK 38-UL-32
2016 - UK 34-UL-38

AVG- UK 32-UL-38

The difference between the 32nd ranked class and the 38th ranked class is basically nothing.

Also, recruiting class rankings aren't really as good of an indicator of the talent in the class as avg recruit rankings. The avg composite recruit rankings over the last 4 years for UK and UL are:

UK - 84.43
UL - 84.49

So this idea that Stoops is drastically recruiting better than Petrino is being drastically over exaggerated. The top of Stoops classes have been better from a pure star ranking standpoint but it seems Petrino wins in the overall top to bottom quality of the classes.