Another private thought...

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

Lake Forest Academy is a private school that is an associate member of the IHSA. LFA chooses associate membership because (Quags, correct me if I am wrong on this) they choose not to comply with all the IHSA athletic eligibility rules regarding recruiting, transfers, and financial support that is not need based.

Associate members are allowed to compete in Illinois against IHSA schools during the regular season and benefit from IHSA services such as licensed officials, open dates scheduling assistance, etc. Associate members cannot compete in IHSA playoffs. Regular season games between IHSA member schools and associate member schools count just as much as any other game in terms of the overall record used for playoff qualification and seeding in football and for playoff seeding in the other sports.

I wonder if associate membership in the IHSA is an option that more private schools might want to explore. If most or all private schools elected to become associate members in the IHSA, they could still compete with other IHSA schools in the regular season as they do now, but not in the IHSA post season. Private schools that are currently members of conferences that contain public schools could still maintain those memberships. Associate membership would provide the benefits of IHSA organizational infrastructure without all the IHSA rules designed to limit private school competitiveness in the playoffs relative to public schools.

Here's the rub: All of the above would be contingent upon private schools being able to organize their own state championship playoffs in the post season.

If there were a parallel post season playoff series that was organized entirely by those private associate members schools, I wonder if the public school dominated IHSA would be big enough emotionally to agree to confer associate memberships on private schools. Those private playoffs would not be branded as IHSA playoffs, but they would definitely compete with IHSA playoffs for the postseason spotlight in the media and elsewhere.

Associate membership could be part of a planned interim step before full separation into two different athletic associations.

 

[mc140]

If Montini, Mt.Carmel and say Loyola left the IHSA, the rest would stay in since their biggest obstacles to winning would be out of the way.

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

If Montini, Mt.Carmel and say Loyola left the IHSA, the rest would stay in since their biggest obstacles to winning would be out of the way.

One of the toughest nuts to crack in this discussion is the lack of statewide organization or networking among the private schools. Private schools value their independence. Indeed, many of them self describe as independent schools. This means that they don't really talk with each other much. Organizing them into a cohesive voting bloc within the IHSA is a herculean task.

When private schools network, it is with similar private schools and not in any pan-private school network or organization. LFA, Parker, Latin, MPA, U-High, etc. network with similar schools regionally in the Independent Schools Association of the Central States (ISACS) and nationally in the National Association of Independent Schools (NAIS). As a boarding school, LFA likely belongs to several associations of boarding schools. Loyola and Ignatius network more with other Jesuit schools in the local Jesuit province and nationally under the auspices of the Jesuit Schools Network than they do with any other private schools in Illinois. Cristo Rey and Christ the King network with other Jesuit schools too, but also with 24 other Cristo Rey model schools around the country. Laurence and Rice network with other Irish Christian Brothers Schools, but not with LaSallian Christian Brothers schools like DLS, Pat's, Montini, and Joe's.

If private schools are ever going to bolt from the IHSA, they need something to bolt to. There won't be anything to which private schools can bolt without scale. Therefore, bolting will not happen in dribs and drabs. It needs to happen en masse or in large chunks (like whole private conferences). You can't create scale if you don't talk with each other.

Associate membership in the IHSA would provide the organizational infrastructure that private schools need to operate their athletic programs. It is not my preferred option (which is full separation), but it might be a useful interim step.

 

[LHSTigers94]

One of the toughest nuts to crack in this discussion is the lack of statewide organization or networking among the private schools. Private schools value their independence. Indeed, many of them self describe as independent schools. This means that they don't really talk with each other much. Organizing them into a cohesive voting bloc within the IHSA is a herculean task.

When private schools network, it is with similar private schools and not in any pan-private school network or organization. LFA, Parker, Latin, MPA, U-High, etc. network with similar schools regionally in the Independent Schools Association of the Central States (ISACS) and nationally in the National Association of Independent Schools (NAIS). As a boarding school, LFA likely belongs to several associations of boarding schools. Loyola and Ignatius network more with other Jesuit schools in the local Jesuit province and nationally under the auspices of the Jesuit Schools Network than they do with any other private schools in Illinois. Cristo Rey and Christ the King network with other Jesuit schools too, but also with 24 other Cristo Rey model schools around the country. Laurence and Rice network with other Irish Christian Brothers Schools, but not with LaSallian Christian Brothers schools like DLS, Pat's, Montini, and Joe's.

If private schools are ever going to bolt from the IHSA, they need something to bolt to. There won't be anything to which private schools can bolt without scale. Therefore, bolting will not happen in dribs and drabs. It needs to happen en masse or in large chunks (like whole private conferences). You can't create scale if you don't talk with each other.

Associate membership in the IHSA would provide the organizational infrastructure that private schools need to operate their athletic programs. It is not my preferred option (which is full separation), but it might be a useful interim step.

Most private schools don't have an issue with IHSA. When the number of schools who do increase, your wish/dream will come true.

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

Most private schools don't have an issue with IHSA.

And you know this because...

 

[LHSTigers94]

And you know this because...

They are not complaining nor is it an uproar outside of this board. True it may be difficult to get all privates on the same page but, I would think 5 to 10 could IF they all had a problem with IHSA.

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

They are not complaining nor is it an uproar outside of this board. True it may be difficult to get all privates on the same page but, I would think 5 to 10 could IF they all had a problem with IHSA.

Simply because you don't hear any private school complaining or uproaring outside of this board leads you to such a conclusion? Assume for a moment that you are wrong and that the complaining and uproaring is happening and you just aren't hearing it. If that were the case, in what private school circles do you travel that would allow you to hear it in the first place?

And, even though you may not hear any/much complaining, or even if the there truly isn't much complaining, it does not mean that the discrimination is not taking place or that the private schools are not unhappy about it.

 

[LHSTigers94]

Simply because you don't hear any private school complaining or uproaring outside of this board leads you to such a conclusion? Assume for a moment that you are wrong and that the complaining and uproaring is happening and you just aren't hearing it. If that were the case, in what private school circles do you travel that would allow you to hear it in the first place?

And, even though you may not hear any/much complaining, or even if the there truly isn't much complaining, it does not mean that the discrimination is not taking place or that the private schools are not unhappy about it.

Uproar outside the Bloomington office. People that complain in closed circles are pointless. If there is injustice, stand tall and challenge it publicly. I haven't seen that happen in a while.

 

[crusader_of_90]

All of my private thoughts are NSFW so I'll keep them to myself.

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

Uproar outside the Bloomington office. People that complain in closed circles are pointless. If there is injustice, stand tall and challenge it publicly. I haven't seen that happen in a while.

You certainly saw it after the injustice of the multiplier was initially rammed down our throats by the IHSA Board. Remember the law suit? Newman was one of the original 32 private school plaintiffs (joined later, I believe, by five others) that successfully sued the IHSA over the multiplier.

That was the ONE time I can ever remember private schools statewide banding together. Not all private schools participated. But, there was clearly statewide representation in this action, with Althoff and Mater Dei from the south to QND and Alleman in the west, to SHG and St. T in the central and up north to Newman and a bunch of Chicago metro area private schools.

 

[LHSTigers94]

You certainly saw it after the injustice of the multiplier was initially rammed down our throats by the IHSA Board. Remember the law suit? Newman was one of the original 32 private school plaintiffs (joined later, I believe, by five others) that successfully sued the IHSA over the multiplier.

That was the ONE time I can ever remember private schools statewide banding together. Not all private schools participated. But, there was clearly statewide representation in this action, with Althoff and Mater Dei from the south to QND and Alleman in the west, to SHG and St. T in the central and up north to Newman and a bunch of Chicago metro area private schools.

Exactly, and it hasn't happened since which is my point.

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

Exactly, and it hasn't happened since which is my point.

Again, simply because you aren't hearing anything doesn't mean that schools are happy and not feeling discriminated against. Back in the first two-thirds of the 20th century, millions of African Americans lived their entire lives with the Jim Crow laws in relative silence.

 

[Secondo1]

Jim Crow reference is waaaaaaayyyy not appropriate for this discussion. OOPS...should have kept that silent...

 

[mc140]

Back in the first two-thirds of the 20th century, millions of African Americans lived their entire lives with the Jim Crow laws in relative silence.

We need to calm down a little here. You are going into HHSTigerfan territory of ridiculousness.

 

[LakeCtyNewt]

I guess my thoughts are these.

1 - If the private schools feel like they truly are being discriminated against, why not file suit against the IHSA?

2 - If it's this intolerable why not leave? All you'd have to do is have your principal and AD file the paperwork with the IHSA.

Seems pretty simple to me. If it's truly this bad as you say and the lives of the kids at these private schools are being affected by this type of discrimination, then choose to do something about it.

All I am seeing here is whining with no action items.

 

[RetiredReferee]

Again, simply because you aren't hearing anything doesn't mean that schools are happy and not feeling discriminated against. Back in the first two-thirds of the 20th century, millions of African Americans lived their entire lives with the Jim Crow laws in relative silence.

Amazing comparison. Almost as amazing as the concentration camp comparison you made in another thread.

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

You guys are a hoot.

You get your knickers all in a twist over the Jim Crow laws reference? I can just see you now getting all huffy and faux offended thinking how galling and over the top it is of me to compare the public private debate to legalized racial discrimination. Chill the hell out.

My POINT, for those of you who are reading comprehension challenged, is that simply because people who are being discriminated against do not revolt or complain or work to make things better does not mean that they are content or that they do not feel the discrimination. And yes, that goes for ANY form of discrimination, from the most heinous to the seemingly benign.

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

I guess my thoughts are these.

1 - If the private schools feel like they truly are being discriminated against, why not file suit against the IHSA?

2 - If it's this intolerable why not leave? All you'd have to do is have your principal and AD file the paperwork with the IHSA.

Seems pretty simple to me. If it's truly this bad as you say and the lives of the kids at these private schools are being affected by this type of discrimination, then choose to do something about it.

All I am seeing here is whining with no action items.

BS, Newt. I am ALWAYS about action items, from the NIPL to the IHSA pulling a Big East, to all private schools pulling an LFA. When it became obvious to me that a flawed enrollment based classification system was to blame for many of our problems and trying to make that system work for all schools all the time is akin to trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, I proposed a new competition based and enrollment influenced system.

As for your lawsuit suggestion, the private schools do not have a legal leg to stand on. Newsflash, Newt: not all discrimination is illegal. That does not make legal discrimination fair or right. For many years, there was nothing illegal about Jim Crow laws. Indeed, they were LAWS designed to segregate African Americans and discriminate against them. And the transfer and radius rules and the multiplier and SF are IHSA board approved POLICIES and PROCEDURES that discriminate against private schools. Unfair, but completely legal.

Why don't private schools just bolt if it is as bad as all that? I've already explained that. There needs to be something to bolt TO. Easier said than done. That's why I think that associate membership is a potential solution and one of the several action items I have thrown out there.

 

[RetiredReferee]

Maybe I've just been lucky, but most times I go to Loyola the sun is shining.

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

Maybe I've just been lucky, but most times I go to Loyola the sun is shining.

Loyola is on a roll. But do not mistake your good fortune and Loyola's roll as being ubiquitous throughout the private school world. Loyola's roll is the exception and not the rule.

If you think I am
putting forth these arguments because I want Loyola to get a better deal, you are mistaken

 

[mc140]

Loyola is on a roll. But do not mistake your good fortune and Loyola's roll as being ubiquitous throughout the private school world. Loyola's roll is the exception and not the rule.

If you think I am
putting forth these arguments because I want Loyola to get a better deal, you are mistaken

How is Sterling Newman better off getting railroaded by Montini in every sport in a separate system?

 

[anon_4vszfu35bv677]

Did someone put something in your coffee?.

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

How is Sterling Newman better off getting railroaded by Montini in every sport in a separate system?

We are heading toward a separate system one way or the other and whether you like it not. I, for one, would like for private schools to run their own system than to have the fox guard that particular hen house.

 

[stonedlizard]

It would just be so boring if privates and publics didn't compete against each other.

 

[JCHILLTOPPERS]

I guess my thoughts are these.

1 - If the private schools feel like they truly are being discriminated against, why not file suit against the IHSA?

2 - If it's this intolerable why not leave? All you'd have to do is have your principal and AD file the paperwork with the IHSA.

Seems pretty simple to me. If it's truly this bad as you say and the lives of the kids at these private schools are being affected by this type of discrimination, then choose to do something about it.

All I am seeing here is whining with no action items.

Newt, these types of law suits are very costly and very time consuming. Then, if you don't win, you just cost your tuition to rise...well, it probably rises if you win too...just no easy answer.

 

[mc140]

We are heading toward a separate system one way or the other and whether you like it not. I, for one, would like for private schools to run their own system than to have the fox guard that particular hen house.

And where you have it wrong is the VAST majority of Catholic Schools would rather be run by the IHSA then run by each other. All of these schools are run independently and ultimately out for themselves and not for the greater good of the Catholic High School system.

 

[GMAN81]

Did someone put something in your coffee?.

Yes, LWeastDad someone did. That ingredient multiplied the caffeine content in all the coffee by 1.65 as evidenced here.

 

[Secondo1]

You guys are a hoot.

You get your knickers all in a twist over the Jim Crow laws reference? I can just see you now getting all huffy and faux offended thinking how galling and over the top it is of me to compare the public private debate to legalized racial discrimination. Chill the hell out.

My POINT, for those of you who are reading comprehension challenged, is that simply because people who are being discriminated against do not revolt or complain or work to make things better does not mean that they are content or that they do not feel the discrimination. And yes, that goes for ANY form of discrimination, from the most heinous to the seemingly benign.

Geez, get off your high horse, man. You're the one needing some chilling. Get your Kleenex box and cry me a river.

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

And where you have it wrong is the VAST majority of Catholic Schools would rather be run by the IHSA then run by each other. All of these schools are run independently and ultimately out for themselves and not for the greater good of the Catholic High School system.

Although I know of NO Catholic school that would want to be run by the IHSA, I know what you meant to say. I know the vast majority of Catholic schools would prefer to have their athletics programs be within the IHSA framework, REGARDLESS of the discrimination they operate under. It's expedient. It's convenient. It's the devil they know. It's one reason why I have thrown the IHSA associate member idea out there.

But, again, separation is coming. I think when separation happens it will be very interesting to see if that vast majority you refer to changes to a smaller majority or even a minority relative to the IHSA running a private school only post season.

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

Geez, get off your high horse, man. You're the one needing some chilling. Get your Kleenex box and cry me a river.

You just reminded me of AmbofQuan and his shinebox.

 

[LHSTigers94]

You guys are a hoot.

You get your knickers all in a twist over the Jim Crow laws reference? I can just see you now getting all huffy and faux offended thinking how galling and over the top it is of me to compare the public private debate to legalized racial discrimination. Chill the hell out.

My POINT, for those of you who are reading comprehension challenged, is that simply because people who are being discriminated against do not revolt or complain or work to make things better does not mean that they are content or that they do not feel the discrimination. And yes, that goes for ANY form of discrimination, from the most heinous to the seemingly benign.

I disagree. IF you are NOT doing anything about it, you ARE content with the way things are going. crying about something isn't action toward change.

 

[LakeCtyNewt]

Does anyone have the actual enrollment me of schools like Loyola, JCA, Montini, NAZ, etc.

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

I disagree. IF you are NOT doing anything about it, you ARE content with the way things are going.

Then we will have to agree to disagree. Discrimination is wrong whether it is endured or fought against.

crying about something isn't action toward change.

That's rich, seeing as how all the public school crying and whining resulted in the multiplier and success factor.

 

[LHSTigers94]

Then we will have to agree to disagree. Discrimination is wrong whether it is endured or fought against.



That's rich, seeing as how all the public school crying and whining resulted in the multiplier and success factor.

I NEVER said discrimination is right or wrong. It is WRONG by the way. I said a person is content if there is no action.

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

It is WRONG by the way. I said a person is content if there is no action.

Simply because a private school being discriminated against does nothing in an attempt to rectify that situation, it is therefore content with the situation? Perhaps they have more pressing things to do on their list of priorities, like educating hundreds of children, or scraping up $100K to fix the roof, or marketing themselves so they don't have to close their doors (like Seton Academy), or about a hundred other things that I would hope that would come before them tilting at the IHSA windmill to right a wrong.

 

[LHSTigers94]

Simply because a private school being discriminated against does nothing in an attempt to rectify that situation, it is therefore content with the situation? Perhaps they have more pressing things to do on their list of priorities, like educating hundreds of children, or scraping up $100K to fix the roof, or marketing themselves so they don't have to close their doors (like Seton Academy), or about a hundred other things that I would hope that would come before them tilting at the IHSA windmill to right a wrong.

All that equals content with the ways things are done. If it bothers me, I take action even if it is delayed actions. If other things are important, I am obviously content.

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

All that equals content with the ways things are done. If it bothers me, I take action even if it is delayed actions. If other things are important, I am obviously content.

I couldn't disagree more.

If you have a painful toothache and your tooth needs to be extracted, but you decide to live with it for the time being because you can't afford to deal with it or because you decide to first amputate your gangrenous toes caused by your diabetes, and after that deal with a long overdue knee replacement, do you really mean to say that you are "obviously content" with your painful toothache?

 

[pjjp]

Although I know of NO Catholic school that would want to be run by the IHSA, I know what you meant to say. I know the vast majority of Catholic schools would prefer to have their athletics programs be within the IHSA framework, REGARDLESS of the discrimination they operate under. It's expedient. It's convenient. It's the devil they know. It's one reason why I have thrown the IHSA associate member idea out there.

But, again, separation is coming. I think when separation happens it will be very interesting to see if that vast majority you refer to changes to a smaller majority or even a minority relative to the IHSA running a private school only post season.

I agree that separation is coming. Your point about getting ahead of the curve, so private schools have an alternative to migrate to is valid. Unfortunately, I'm guessing there has not been much forethought by private schools in that area. We may see how the separation issue plays out very soon, though.

 

[HHSTigerFan]

Would seem the public schools are the ones that should be filing the lawsuit claiming discrimination....

 

[LHSTigers94]

I couldn't disagree more.

If you have a painful toothache and your tooth needs to be extracted, but you decide to live with it for the time being because you can't afford to deal with it or because you decide to first amputate your gangrenous toes caused by your diabetes, and after that deal with a long overdue knee replacement, do you really mean to say that you are "obviously content" with your painful toothache?

If the tooth ache is that bad, you pull it yourself. Ram, There are no excuses to not taking action towards something that truly bothers you. If nothing else, a simple complaint letter get the ball rolling.