At What Point Is This Cohen's Program?
- Thread starter jbulldog
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right now we flat out suck, the LFL is depressing, ourwhite shoes and flat bills look like a weekend semi-pro team,and next year we'll probably be worse.
hemissed it his2nd year with 37 wins, and has been there everyyear since. Just giving you that as a comparison, andobviously, our program had nowherenear the historythe State programhad at that time.jbulldog said:
I think one thing you have to consider when talking about the history of aprogram is what today's kids know. To the kids comingout of the HS ranks today, State has very little history. Similar to Miami and FSU football in the 80's, they built their own tradition with that group of HS'ers. Before then, neither hada tradition in football.
Honestly, if you were a HS player in TX, FL, CA, etc......what program has a better national name? Ole Miss or MississippiState?
So what you are saying is that Cohen is 80% responsible for UK's 12-18 SEC record last year and 60% responsible for their 7-13 record this year?<div>patdog said:
</div><div>Glad you cleared that up.
</div>
When he has his players as juniors, you should see what his team looks like. I know it hasn't translated to wins but our batting average has went up and era went down.
a mule has never won the Kentucky Derby. And one won't unless there are only mules racing in the KD.
Not next year but the year after we should be much improved. At that point we will be safely removed from the Ron Polk era.
I didn't realized at the time how much Polk's insane temper tantrum over Raffo not being named the head coach would hurt and influence this team. Some of our present players should have been asked to leave.
Not next year but the year after we should be much improved. At that point we will be safely removed from the Ron Polk era.
I didn't realized at the time how much Polk's insane temper tantrum over Raffo not being named the head coach would hurt and influence this team. Some of our present players should have been asked to leave.
he will have 2 recruiting classes and will have cleansed us of most of the Polk infection. This was simply a much bigger rebuilding job than many wanted to admit.
He signed a good recruiting class last year, and is bringing in another. We should see more improvement next year than we have these first two seasons, because as the stats say, we are improved over 2008- just not much.
by the end of year 4 we should be on solid ground and a top half SEC team or he needs to go
He signed a good recruiting class last year, and is bringing in another. We should see more improvement next year than we have these first two seasons, because as the stats say, we are improved over 2008- just not much.
by the end of year 4 we should be on solid ground and a top half SEC team or he needs to go
with your starting pitcher and the freshman from Birmingham. Both have good arms and should make a difference over the next two years. I've only seen State play two games so it may not be enough to evaluate but it looks like you would have a decent team if the defense wasn't so bad.
four years should be enough to tell if we're going in the right direction or not. I would have thought 3, but next year isn't looking so hot, and you have to take into account that he spent one year with none of his own recruits.
After the Bragan disaster in '75, Polk had us in a regional in '78. Different game back then, but there were also fewer regional slots available. (Polk also had winning seasons in '76 and '77.)
After the Bragan disaster in '75, Polk had us in a regional in '78. Different game back then, but there were also fewer regional slots available. (Polk also had winning seasons in '76 and '77.)
He may not be Paul Maholm, but he's done pretty damn well for us this year. If we didn't have the Bad News Bears backing him up, his stats would look much better than they probably do. His stamina is something he needs to work on, but he has shown the capability to throw a complete 9 inning game, so at least we know he's capable of going deep into games. Chad Girodo has shown flashes of good things to come. Luke Bole has been pretty good. Ben Bracewell, Kendall Graveman - those guys will be useful for us down the road as well. Whether you want to give the man any kind of credit or not, the freshmen pitchers we have will give us a solid foundation from which to build these next couple of years.
What Cohen missed on, however, were the juco players he brought in. Vickerson and Jaron Shepard (lately) have been the only decent acquisitions from the juco ranks. And Shepard is arguable, but I think he's starting to play much better lately. Also, injuries to a couple of guys have absolutely ruined our depth. I'm as concerned as anybody about the current state of our program, but we actually do have a couple of guys that give me a little hope for the future. Cohen's going to have to change some things up, and if he doesn't, we may be recruiting 30 new players next year. If he'll get off his high horse and bring in some guys that can actually field a ground ball and be servicable at the plate, we will get this thing back on track. It's all up to the man in charge though, so we'll see what happens. Give the man a little credit though. We have some guys that have some ability. They're just young and inexperienced.
What Cohen missed on, however, were the juco players he brought in. Vickerson and Jaron Shepard (lately) have been the only decent acquisitions from the juco ranks. And Shepard is arguable, but I think he's starting to play much better lately. Also, injuries to a couple of guys have absolutely ruined our depth. I'm as concerned as anybody about the current state of our program, but we actually do have a couple of guys that give me a little hope for the future. Cohen's going to have to change some things up, and if he doesn't, we may be recruiting 30 new players next year. If he'll get off his high horse and bring in some guys that can actually field a ground ball and be servicable at the plate, we will get this thing back on track. It's all up to the man in charge though, so we'll see what happens. Give the man a little credit though. We have some guys that have some ability. They're just young and inexperienced.
He has a 5.64 era with an SEC era of 7.17. SEC teams are hitting .315 off of him. Despite all that, by reading this board you would think he is the second coming of Paul Maholm. We have started a ton of freshman pitchers over the years and the ones who developed into Friday or Saturday type guys did not have stats anywhere close to that ****** as freshman.
Independencebowlmainstay wrote...
"Honestly, if you were a HS player in TX, FL, CA, etc......what program has a better national name? Ole Miss or Mississippi State?"
If they get their news from ESPN or any other national media the two schools are the same. Ole Miss Bulldogs are nationally known across the country.
"Honestly, if you were a HS player in TX, FL, CA, etc......what program has a better national name? Ole Miss or Mississippi State?"
If they get their news from ESPN or any other national media the two schools are the same. Ole Miss Bulldogs are nationally known across the country.
The dude has the worst defense I've ever seen backing him up. Hits and errors aren't always called like they should be in college either. With a good defense, I'd be willing to bet that ERA comes down a couple of points. Also, he's had a couple of rough starts, like last week and this week for instance, which makes those #'s look a lot worse than they really are. He hasn't really been the same since he threw 140+ pitches against UT. So I don't really care what his current ERA is. I know what I've seen and he will be a good one for us, just watch. We've got to shore up the defense first and foremost though. If we don't do that, we'll see similar type numbers. Lastly, y'all have had the chance to develop your freshmen pitchers into Friday and Saturday starters, while he's been thrown to the wolves from day 1. He's got some things to learn, and he'll do that with the experience he's getting this year. And I haven't seen one Maholm comparison on this board either, you're just making **** up.
ETA: If you've been reading this board lately, you will know that I'm no Cohen apologist. I will give him credit when I feel it's deserved, however.
ETA: If you've been reading this board lately, you will know that I'm no Cohen apologist. I will give him credit when I feel it's deserved, however.
Is good not ready for a weekend spot this, year, against a decent SEC team he is going to get murdered second time through the lineup. I think he will end up being very good, as long as he adds another pitch, but if he doesn't do that he wont. The kid just doesn't throw hard enough to only have a fastball and curveball, but because the state of our pitching he is the best option we have right now to start on the weekends.
but he isn't a guy you are going to build a program around like has been hinted too on this board. If he turns out to be one of your frontline starters, then you have issues. I haven't criticized or praised Cohen one time on this board. All I am saying is that last year's signing class is not very impressive.....at all. Todd, Coach, and others try to talk about it like it is some badass class and point to it as a sign things are headed back in the right direction. If MSU is waiting for that class to get older to get them back where they need to be, they are going to be waiting a LONG time. </p>
I'm not one of them. I don't recall seeing any posts saying we're going to build our program around Chris Stratton. If there has been, then I must have missed them. He, Bole, Girodo, Bracewell & Gravemen have looked pretty good at times for us this year though, so we'll see how it all plays out in the next couple of years. The freshmen pitchers have pretty much been the only silver lining to this season so far, but like I said, we'll see how the next couple of years go. This jucos have been disappointing and it's really hard on a program to miss on those when you go that route. We needed immediate impact from those guys and we simply haven't got it.
I'm not trying to get in a pissing match. I don't archive post like Ronny but someone on here said "MSU will have the best pitching staff in the SEC and probably the best in the nation in 2 years. You can write that down." MSU has a good group of young pitchers to build a staff around for the next few years but I haven't seen anything fromany of them to think they are going to be lock down SEC starters.
but that's just your typical recruiting smack when you've supposedly got a good class coming in. I haven't seen any dominating performances by any of these young guys, but I do feel like we sorta kinda have a little reason for optimism as far as our pitching staff goes for the next couple of years. If we can't get anybody in here that can play defense or hit, it's not going to matter one bit though.
rebel law said:
that we had a higher ranked class than yours. By TWO publications. Get over it.
Also, I guess you're calling a long time two years.
But it's not just this class- when you add in this upcoming class, which I think is a pretty good one, it won't take very long. In the meantime, I hope your recruits Tommy John surgeries go well.
And as far as Stratton- remember Pomeranz came out of the bullpen as a freshman. Mark Holliman had a losing record as a freshman. Stratton has some things to work on, for sure, but he will get better. Once he learns how to pitch, I think he will be one of the best in the SEC. We're throwing these guys out there because we have to, and for the most part they've held their own.
Our problem with our pitching staff is youth, not ability. And yes, that's a big step in the right direction.
I figure if Cohen doesn't work out, he has left the next coach at least two top 20 recruiting classes to work with that will be upperclassmen.
I have said numerous times I'm not impressed with our signing class either and I think both are overrated. I don't think our class is any better than y'alls and I don't think either are top 15 classes, much less top 10 classes. I am impressed with both of the classes we are bringing in next year. Pomeranz started 11 games as a freshman, 10 of them being SEC games, and had an era right at 4. Holliman had a 3.85 era as a freshman. Not even close to comparable to Stratton.
Every year or every other year, Bianco finds a freshman (or RS freshman) who can pitch on the weekend. Some fans on here think that finding a freshman who can be an effective weekend starter is impossible when in fact it's not.
Our freshmen all have tremendous talent...they just need to learn how to pitch. It will come. And...yes Stratton will be a top 5 SEC starter by the time he graduates. He has some things to work on but has tremendous talent. Watson will be a good one if he can recover from injury.
but the question should be, when do we evaluate if he has been successful or not. My opinion is that it should be done after his forth year. He played totally with Coach Polk's recruits his first year: both lost with these players. This year he has his first class on the field. Next year he will have his second class on the field: freshmen in the field, mainly sophomore's pitching. In his forth year the players are his and so is the responsibility of the direction of the program. If we have not made significant progress at that time, then we move on and bring in his replacement.
BigLeagueChew said:
I'm not saying that it's not possible- heck, we've got Stratton doing it for us this year, and Routt who did it last year. I've never said that. What I am saying is that they will improve as they get expereince. That seems to be the thing that a lot of people aren't getting. Is Pomeranz the pitcher now that he was two years ago? No. He's better.
Most pitchers in the SEC, if you look at them across the board, they improve. They mature, they get experience, they develop their pitches, they play summer ball, they add muscle- it all factors in and leads to improvement. It has been like that for years and years.
My point is even if you are fortunate enough to have a guy come in and pitch right away in the weekend rotation, it's reasonable to expect them to improve over time with coaching. Players aren't static- they develop. You people act like there is no way that these players will improve, and that's just not the case.
And as I said last night when someone asked me about Butch Thompson- if they pitchers don't develop, that's on the coaches because that's their job- to develop these players. But it does take time.