Baseball Gurus: Question/Rule interpretation

[615dawg]

Situation: Runners on 1st and 3rd, 1 out.

Runner on 1st is stealing, ball is hit into the air. Outfielder catches ball for out. Runner at 3rd tags up. Outfielder throws to home but runner is safe at home. Catcher then throws to first and gets the runner out returning to first.

Does the run count?

 

[615dawg]

Situation: Runners on 1st and 3rd, 1 out.

Runner on 1st is stealing, ball is hit into the air. Outfielder catches ball for out. Runner at 3rd tags up. Outfielder throws to home but runner is safe at home. Catcher then throws to first and gets the runner out returning to first.

Does the run count?

 

[Coach34]

so it must have happened in Little League....

My guess would be that the run does not count because once the ball is caught for out 2, the runner has to immediately return to 1st...

 

[DawgatAuburn]

[No message]

 

[Waterdawg]

If the third out is made on the batter-runner at 1B, or is a force out at any base, no run(s) score.

Edit to say....it also depends on whether it is little league or pro. I believe the rules are slightly different. My description goes for little league.

 

[missouridawg]

Thirdout made by a force out negates that run.

 

[boomboommsu]

<font face="TTE595CF58t00" size="1"><font face="TTE595CF58t00" size="1"><p align="left">Rule 2.00 (Force Play) Comment: Confusion regarding this play is removed by remembering that</p><p align="left">frequently the “force” situation is removed during the play. Example: Man on first, one out, ball hit</p><p align="left">sharply to first baseman who touches the bag and batter-runner is out. The force is removed at that</p><p align="left">moment and runner advancing to second must be tagged. If there had been a runner on third or second,</p><p align="left">and either of these runners scored before the tag-out at second, the run counts. Had the first baseman</p><p align="left">thrown to second and the ball then had been returned to first, the play at second was a force out, making</p><p align="left">two outs, and the return throw to first ahead of the runner would have made three outs. In that case, no</p><p align="left">run would score.</p><p align="left">Example: Not a force out. One out. Runner on first and third. Batter flies out. Two out. Runner</p><p align="left">on third tags up and scores. Runner on first tries to retouch before throw from fielder reaches first</p><p align="left">baseman, but does not get back in time and is out. Three outs. If, in umpire’s judgment, the runner from</p>

third touched home before the ball was held at first base, the run counts.</p></font></font>

 

[windcrysmary]

wasn't actually forced out.. he was doubled up..similar to being picked off..

run scored before that happened so the run counts

 

[615dawg]

Thanks.

 

[patdog]

He has nowhere else he can go. It's completely different than a runner being picked off of 1st base, because the runner who is picked off has the choice of going to 2nd base or back to 1st.

 

[8dog]

or not. A force is a force no matter what the runner does. In this sitatuation, it does matter what the runner does. If he stands on the bag, he isn't forced to go anywhere.

 

[patdog]

nm</p>

 

[8dog]

But if a runner misses a bag, the pitcher simply throws to that bag and they touch the base---I don't think that's a force play. Its just the way the rules were written.

Its pretty clear that he is not forced to the next base. Its also pretty clear that the rule says the run counts and doesn't treat it as a force play.

 

[boomboommsu]

<font face="TTE595CF58t00" size="1"><font face="TTE595CF58t00" size="1"><p align="left">With two out, a runner on third base, and two strikes on the batter, the runner</p><p align="left">attempts to steal home base on a legal pitch and the ball touches the runner in the</p><p align="left">batter’s strike zone. The umpire shall call “Strike Three,” the batter is out and the</p><p align="left">run shall not count; before two are out, the umpire shall call “Strike Three,” the ball</p>

is dead, and the run counts.</p></font></font>

 

[Eureka Dog]

If the runner from 1st (R1) decides to be a jerk andnot return to1st base, then the defense would have to instigate a run down, which (at lower levels) often end up inthe ball being thrown away and the runner returning safely to1st base and other runners advancing. I can also envision, R1 just standingmidway between 1st & 2nd, refusing to return to first base, and the first baseman(with the ball) standing stoically, waiting on the runner to return.

</p>

 

[boomboommsu]

<p align="left">It's officially an appeal play, not a force out:

<font face="TTE595CF58t00" size="1"><font face="TTE595CF58t00" size="1"></font></font></p><p align="left">(d) He fails to retouch his base after a fair or foul ball is legally caught before he, or his</p><p align="left">base, is tagged by a fielder. He shall not be called out for failure to retouch his base</p>

after the first following pitch, or any play or attempted play. This is an appeal play;</p>

 

[Todd4State]

is if Usain Bolt were trying to steal home.

I mean, talk about getting a good jump- getting to home before the pitch actually gets there.

 

[rawdawg14]

If the runner crosses the plate before the third out is recorded then the run counts....So in this situation, the catcher did not throw to 1st until after the runner was safe at home, runs scores and does count

 

[rawdawg14]

it is a force....If you are not tagging up (standing on the bag) when the ball is caught in the air, you are forced to go back to the bag from which you came before the ball reaches said bag in order to be safe...also, if you have rounded second or third you must travel back touching each bag you rounded, you can't cut across the infield....but to answer your specific question....Yes it is a force at first if a pop fly is hit with a runner leaving first before the ball is caught. If the runner had "tagged up" (stood on the bag until the ball is caught) then the force is removed and he would have to be tagged out

 

[windcrysmary]

all they would have to do is throw to 1st base and the runner is out..

 

[boomboommsu]

A 'force' comes from when a runner is on 1st, and the batter puts the ball in play, the runner on 1st no longer has a right to the bag, that right now belongs to the batter. If he stays standing on 1st, he can still be tagged out. By convention, he can be 'outed' by touching the only base he now has a right to: 2nd. This is a 'force' out: he no longer has a right to any base, so he is now out. On a fly ball, the batter is out when the ball is caught, so the runner now has a right to either 1st or 2nd. By a separate rule, the runner is not allowed to advance from the base he has a right to (1st in this case) on a caught ball until after the ball is touched. The penalty of this rule, if successfully appealed, is that he is ruled out. He's not 'forced' to run back to 1st. He can keep running, and if no appeal is made he is safe. 'Forced', in the baseball sense, means he is forced off the base he was previously occupying, and his right to the next base removed by the defense, 'forcing' him out.

It's two entirely different types of outs. Baseball just chose to initiate the appeal by throwing to the previous bag. They could have chosen to do it by throwing to the mound, or the dugout, or whatever.

Or thought another way: the first play on the batted ball must be completed before the runner can score. If the runner is out before reaching first, then the inning ends exactly when the first play ends, so no run can score. On a fly ball, the first play ends when it is caught, because the batter is out. The attempt to double up the runner is a subsequent play. Don't be confused by both outs occuring from tagging the base, that's just a coincidence.

 

[Todd4State]

it sounded to me like the runner that was trying to steal second never got back to first to tag up in the first place, and was thrown out. That's a force out because he has to get back to first before he can advance since it was a fly ball that was caught.

A similar play happened in the 2001 SEC Tournament Championship game, except that LSU didn't have a runner on third to score. I believe it was the legendary Wally Pontiff that was trying to steal second and he didn't realize that the ball was caught on the fly, and he was forced out at third.

I think what you are talking about is an appeal play like what happened in the 1996 NLCS between the Braves and Cardinals where Mark Lemke went to tag up on a fly ball, and the Cardinals appealed by throwing the ball to third and the umpire ruled that he did not tag up at third.

 

[shoeless joe]

it's an appeal play. the reason its not a force is because the runner does NOT have to return to the bag. if the runner makes it to second and the defense never throws back to first then the runner is safe at second. however, on a force the runner has to go to the next bag, can't have two runners on first.

this confuses a lot of coaches at lower levels that think the pitcher has to toe the rubber and step off tho appeal a runner leaving a base early on a fly out, for example a runner scoring on a sac fly. the pitcher only has to toe the rubber to put the ball in play after time has been called. if time is never called they only have to throw to the base and if the runner left early the ump calls him out. this causes confusion by coaches and players all the time in little league and even high school, especially mhsaa officials.