Baseball Rules Question

[CochiseCowbell]

I've been under the impression for some time now that if swinging strike three is in the dirt and first base is occupied then the batter cannot go to first advancing the runner, therefore no tag or throw to first is needed. However, today in the top of the 10th just such a thing happen when Detz had to reach for the throw.

Is this a college rule only? Has it always been a college rule? Must the bases be loaded for the rule to take effect where the batter cannot advance?

Did I simply create that entire rule in my head?

I have so many questions. I wouldn't know where to begin looking it up either, so I bring it to SPS for the answers. For, if I've learned anything from reading this board, creating a thread with a question usually brings about entertaining results, if not always correct ones (ie the no shitting at the ex's house dilemma).

 

[8dog]

If there are two outs the batter can advance...

You are right otherwise

 

[CochiseCowbell]

Wait, so if there are two outs AND 1st base occupied then the batter can advance? Or are you telling me the batter can advance regardless if anyone is on first or not, but there has to be two outs for the swinging strike three ball in the dirt advancement?

 

[8dog]

A batter can't advance if 1b is occupied...

Unless there are two outs. That's why we had to throw to first in the tenth

 

[drt7891]

It's the notion that a batter or batter-runner cannot be put out until the ball is caught or the batter-runner (what the runner is called between the at-bat and the point he's safe at first... at that point, he becomes a runner) is tagged out. However, with a runner on first and fewer than 2 outs, first base is considered occupied if a runner is there, so he's out by virtue of the occupied base. With 2 outs, runners move on anything hit (runners are forced to advance), anyway, so to get the third out, a swinging strike must be caught or the batter-runner must be tagged out.

So there ya go...

 

[CochiseCowbell]

Gotcha. Thank you both.

 

[Ace-Leroy]

always hated that rule. i think if you strikeout your *** should be out even if the catcher drops the ball.

 

[QuaoarsKing]

Making the batter out even if the ball is dropped if 1st is occupied and there are 0 or 1 outs is like the Infield Fly Rule's cousin.

Theoretically, the catcher would be able to drop strike 3 on purpose, throw it to 2nd and get an out, and then throw it to 1st for the double play.

 

[CochiseCowbell]

Good point, which brings up another question interesting scenario:

There are two outs and first and second are both occupied. Swinging strike three in the dirt, with a speedster in the box, ball skirts away to the left, towards third, and the catcher can't immediately find it. Can he pick it up and throw it to third for an easier force out?

I would assume no, because the batter needs to be the one tagged or forced out for it was his strikeout. Plus it would make things a lot more complicated. However, there are two outs and the batter can advance in this scenario alone when first is occupied. Could it be considered a force out at the other bases if the runners do not necessarily have to advance? Or is it a rule that they have to advance if another runner or batter is immediately behind them with two outs and a "play" involving the batter gives him the "option" of taking his base?

One of the numerous reasons Baseball is such a fantastic sport.

 

[drt7891]

Yes any force out counts, but you have to remember that runners are moving, regardless of what happens on 2 strikes, 2 outs. A catcher would be stupid to try for any bag other than first because runners are moving on the pitch on that count.

ETA: Runners won't necessarily be moving if the pitch isn't a 3-2 count, but they will have a significant advantage because of their leads off the bag. It would basically be like trying to throw out the runner at second or third on a bunt attempt... it's incredibly risky to try. If the count is 3-2, runners move at the pitch.