Baseball: why we are here..

[8dog]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/247spo...all-Class-of-2016-SigneesWalkons-75003137/Amp

Outside of the tommy johns in the 15 class take a look at the 16 class. We ultimately added vansau and macnamee but this is a staggeringly bad class. We only have 1 position player from that original class even on the team- skelton.

Mix in the fact that we havent had a freshman that is truly a pitcher throw a pitch this year. And only have one on the whole roster. We are operating with about one whole recruiting class

good news for a new coach is he should have plenty of scholarships and roster soace

 

[5049]

The problem is with the upperclassmen, whatever class they came from.

Mangum has no power and Stovall and Alexander are role players. Vansau and McNamee obviously didn't fill their need as JUCO stop-gaps. The 2014 class and the 2015 class were decimated with Tommy John and transfer. Brant Blaylock, Luke Reynolds, Elih Marrero, Delvin Zinn, Ryan Rigby. Will 2016 come back to bit us? Probably next year, yes, but there is some good pitching in there like Ashcraft that we'll get back, and hopefully McQuary will get it together, we'll need it since 2017 essentially had zero pitching

We can't blame it on missing the MLB guys, we all knew that would happen

 

[DawgatAuburn]

I don't follow baseball as closely as you or many others, so I had never heard of a bunch of these guys. Thankfully google helps.

A few random ones:
Coffers is at Fla Gulf Coast where he's getting on base nearly half the time, has nine steals and 24 runs.
Holderman is in the Mets system (or was last year) but his numbers were largely unimpressive.
Miller has gotten five outs this season for Clemson through 25 games. Last year he got 11 outs with an ERA over 22. Yes, 22.
Robbins is in the Cardinals system and sports a .179 average through 240 ab's spread across two seasons.
Severance is at Dyersburg State in TN and killed it there last year (.323. 8 HR, 47 RBI) but not as much this year (.286, 1 HR)
Reed Smith is also at Dyersburg but is a FR? He's hitting .350 with 4 HR and 25 RBI.
Whitman is at UAB after a year at EMCC. This year he's pitched 11 innings with a 4.51 ERA, striking out 16 and only giving up six hits but walking 12.

They looked good on paper I guess, some of these guys seem to have been overrated. Those who are performing well are doing so against inferior competition.

 

[HumpDawgy]

Vansau and MacNamee are the biggest disappointments so far. They should be hitting. Them along with Billingsley pitching, I believe that has hurt us the most. We also needed both Gilbert and Pener to come in and take over C and 1B and that didn't happen. Of the CC and grad transfer pitchers, France and Neff have done pretty well. Marsh and Liebelt....not so much. I believe Marsh can work out of it, but I'm not confident about Liebelt.

The silver lining are our freshmen: Tanner Allen, Rowdy Jordan, Josh Hatcher, Jordan Westburg, and Justin Foscue. All of these guys have shown some promise. Keep playing them and they should be pretty good next year and in year 3, look out. That would be 5 strong hitters in the lineup along with whoever gets recruited by then. Right now we have Jake and Hunter and a bunch of freshmen. Not going to do well this year in SEC play.

 

[5049]

Vansau and MacNamee are the biggest disappointments so far. They should be hitting. Them along with Billingsley pitching, I believe that has hurt us the most. We also needed both Gilbert and Pener to come in and take over C and 1B and that didn't happen. Of the CC and grad transfer pitchers, France and Neff have done pretty well. Marsh and Liebelt....not so much. I believe Marsh can work out of it, but I'm not confident about Liebelt.

The silver lining are our freshmen: Tanner Allen, Rowdy Jordan, Josh Hatcher, Jordan Westburg, and Justin Foscue. All of these guys have shown some promise. Keep playing them and they should be pretty good next year and in year 3, look out. That would be 5 strong hitters in the lineup along with whoever gets recruited by then. Right now we have Jake and Hunter and a bunch of freshmen. Not going to do well this year in SEC play.

The JUCO guys were pretty much fixes for the 2014 and 2016 classes, and yeah, you nailed it on the head

Forgot about Gilbert and Pener, yes, they were fairly high level recruits I though

 

[Shamoan]

we have GOT to get our recruiting in order and figured out. we simply cant afford to rebuild and being grandaddys of sec baseball, we shouldnt have to. that is the most frustrating part. we are getting destroyed in our recruiting/recruiting strategy.

 

[8dog]

Betting big on every other or every third class and then signing small is too big a risk. You just have to sign pretty big classes every year. 17-19– vandy signed 18,23 and 18

 

[patdog]

Agree with both of you. The bottom line is MSU's baseball program hasn't been elite since 1990 because we haven't recruited as well as we should. Pat McMahon used to always stress class and positional balance in recruiting. And that's something we've never really had, even back in the 1980s.

 

[blacklistedbully]

Vandy, as a private institution doesn't have the max scholarship problem we have as a public institution, particularly one without a lottery to help close the gap.

This is why I would not want Corbin even if he was interested. With the advantage they have at Vandy, it's hard to say how much of his success is being a great coach vs being a really good coach with a huge recruiting advantage.

 

[5049]

Agree with both of you. The bottom line is MSU's baseball program hasn't been elite since 1990 because we haven't recruited as well as we should. Pat McMahon used to always stress class and positional balance in recruiting. And that's something we've never really had, even back in the 1980s.

I don't remember the 70s, but how many back to back Omaha appearances have we ever had? or even 2 out of 4 years? or even less so, just national seed type years back to back? That's the percentage play to win a title in my mind

1984-1985 could technically count I guess, maybe 1989-1990, then we pulled it off in 1997-1998. Since then, nada

Vandy, South Carolina, Virginia, UCLA and Florida had elite programs well before they finally broke through in Omaha. Of course you always have a Coastal or Fresno but again that's a lot of luck and "thats baseball" type stuff

 

[patdog]

83-85 were elite years, as was 79 and 89-90. The 83 team is the most overlooked elite team in our history. Won the SEC West over the Bama team that finished #2 in the nation, and were the only team to beat national champion Texas in the postseason, only to run out of pitching depth and lose to them twice (they had Roger Clemons, Calvin Shiraldi, Mike Capel and Bruce Ruffin on that staff). But yeah, other than 97-98, we've never made the CWS even two years in a row. But yeah, it's been one long 40 year boom or bust cycle, with a couple of notable gaps where we had a lot more busts than booms, and one where we had more booms than busts.

 

[8dog]

But scholarships arent the biggest issue in this instance. The roster limit of 35 is.

 

[5049]

But scholarships arent the biggest issue in this instance. The roster limit of 35 is.

I disagree with this, even if the roster were bigger, kids transfer if they aren't getting to play

 

[8dog]

Which is exactly why you dont sign small classes. Cannizaro understood that.

 

[5049]

Which is exactly why you dont sign small classes. Cannizaro understood that.

That's fine, but it doesn't solve the scholarship problem, which you continually dismiss, in this case, in favor of bigger roster limits

Scholarship money is THE main thing

 

[patdog]

It is an issue, but it's not an excuse. There are ways to supplement the 11.7 scholarship limit and if we're not using them, that's our fault. The REAL issue is we haven't done a good job of recruiting. And signing small classes is almost inexcusable when you can always make the numbers work with transfers.

 

[blacklistedbully]

I don't think it is as easy as you think. If you're talking about getting around it by offering academic or need-based scholarships, as a public institution we have to follow certain rules, and they apply to all students. I don't think you can just give those kinds of scholarships to baseball players over more qualified students who are not ballplayers.

I'll admit I haven't researched it in detail, but I believe the reason other schools in the SEC can do it is because they have found funding not tied to the taxpayer, such as an add-on to a lottery, and have written those in so that they do not have to make them competitive or qualitative. Or they have found a wealthy donor(s) who have created scholarships for ballplayers...again, not tied to taxpayer money.

 

[blacklistedbully]

Vast majority, if not all D1 NCAA baseball coaches would disagree. Increasing the roster is nice, but increasing scholarships is a much bigger factor. The 11.7 restriction is crippling. The fact you can't give less than a 25% scholarship means increasing the roster limit only allows you to offer more players a spot, but zero money.

This is why some programs that never had much success before are having it now. It's too much of a crap-shoot with current scholarship limitations. The better players want more financial aid. That's why more of them are ending up at places like Stony Brook or other mid-majors. It has definitely brought about parity. But it has also allowed private schools to get a huge advantage. Being private they can give as much money as they want to whomever they want. Their only restriction is the roster limit.

So,Vandy can literally have 35 guys on the roster getting everything paid for. We can't even have 12, and to have a reasonable chance to fill a decent roster, we can't give hardly any of our guys even 50%.

 

[bulldogcountry1]

Seems to me that the biggest problem of late is that we have too many non-SEC caliber players on scholarship. So, when an Ethan Small has to have TJ in the summer, you can't replace him with another warm body because he is a scholarship player and has to technically remain on the roster. You just hope that 1/4 scholarship JUCO guy pans out.

You even don't have the chance to let a walk-on fill his slot or even compete with the worst scholarship JUCO player. You are already below the roster limit before school starts, and there's nothing that can be done.

 

[engie]

we have GOT to get our recruiting in order and figured out. we simply cant afford to rebuild and being grandaddys of sec baseball, we shouldnt have to. that is the most frustrating part. we are getting destroyed in our recruiting/recruiting strategy.

Our fanbase needs to chill. This year is going to be a long one. But it isn't indicative of the future prospects.

The class that is signed but not here yet.
View attachment 9903

The class of HS JRs.
View attachment 9904

The class of HS Sophs
View attachment 9905

Recruiting is teed up for huge success.

 

[5049]

It is an issue, but it's not an excuse. There are ways to supplement the 11.7 scholarship limit and if we're not using them, that's our fault. The REAL issue is we haven't done a good job of recruiting. And signing small classes is almost inexcusable when you can always make the numbers work with transfers.

That's just not true. Our classes have been highly ranked ever since Cohen got here, and they've had talent in them, but we've also had a lot of transfer, and lost a lot of guys to MLB (high school seniors and juniors), and I'd bet my house money had a lot to do with that

If you give us 35 full scholarships, or even 25-27, MSU baseball would recruit similarly to Alabama football

 

[5049]

If those classes are chock full of guys that are going high in the draft, then no, we aren't teed up for anything

J.T. Ginn is not even going to sign and he's a lifelong fan, you can't turn down the money if we can't offer anything else, just can't do it

 

[Shamoan]

Our recruiting strategy is without a doubt in need of a complete overhaul. What we have been doing over the last decade has not been working. It hasn't lent itself to program stability which is why two seasons after winning the sec, we are starting a 5 win sec slate in the face. That is totally unacceptable and the responsible party is now in charge of making the next hire. Cohen gets credit for the good years, as he should, but he deserves a heap of the blame for not stabilizing the program after that success. What we, as a fanbase, are willing to accept as a whole plays a huge part in our future success, and it's time we start moving towards the "winning at all costs" column if we ever expect to reclaim our spot at the table of the sec elite which now requires a national championship. We better figure it out quickly.

 

[5049]

Our recruiting strategy is without a doubt in need of a complete overhaul. What we have been doing over the last decade has not been working. It hasn't lent itself to program stability which is why two seasons after winning the sec, we are starting a 5 win sec slate in the face. That is totally unacceptable and the responsible party is now in charge of making the next hire. Cohen gets credit for the good years, as he should, but he deserves a heap of the blame for not stabilizing the program after that success. What we, as a fanbase, are willing to accept as a whole plays a huge part in our future success, and it's time we start moving towards the "winning at all costs" column if we ever expect to reclaim our spot at the table of the sec elite which now requires a national championship. We better figure it out quickly.

You have bumped yo head

 

[patdog]

Highly ranked recruiting classes does not necessarily equal good recruiting. Bad attitudes, off field disciplinary issues, and draft signees aren't good recruits, no matter how they're rated by the guys with websites. Who, by the way, if they knew as much about baseball as a lot of them like to think they do, would be working IN baseball and not running a website.

 

[engie]

Oh great this again. Tell me which team consistently in that top 5 I relayed is going a whole lot of losing?

 

[Shamoan]

We are/should be a national championship program. If you are satisfied by our entire history, you are part of our current problem. The stars are our goal,not reaching orbit

 

[Palos verdes]

People might need to get used to mediocrity for our baseball program.

 

[engie]

We can certainly be better and should be better. But if you are talking about taking dynamite to the accomplishment level of last 7 years -- well you are being shamoan.

At what point do you actually sit back and ask yourself "man, in all of my many message board meltdowns, I've really only ever been right about Sirmon -- and have been hilariously wrong at least a handful of times" -- drink a beer -- and wait and see?

The baseball program is going to be elite going forward. Better than it has ever been before. Butch is a realistic, gettable option. But he isn't at the top of the list, nor should he be. I'm not sure how anyone can listen to Cohen for 45 seconds and have tremendous trepidation about this search. You can pull the "well he got Cannizaro" card -- but that was done midseason - not even at the end of a semester or fall practice -- on short notice -- knowing there would be uncomfortable seasons while the new yard was built. The new guy is walking into a much better job than ANY of the previous ones have.

It's the same thing here every time we have a **** year in baseball -- and amazingly driven by many of the same posters. If so inclined I could link hundreds of threads from 2015 talking about the long tough rebuild that we were facing to get back, borderline fire Cohen, etc. It was arguably the dominant viewpoint on the board at one time. One thing I admire about Pat is that even as an eternal baseball pessimist, he will certainly own it when he's wrong about something. Pretty sure he and mcdawg were the only two to come back and own it when we won the SEC and were a national seed the next year.

 

[wtw2400]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/247spo...all-Class-of-2016-SigneesWalkons-75003137/Amp

Outside of the tommy johns in the 15 class take a look at the 16 class. We ultimately added vansau and macnamee but this is a staggeringly bad class. We only have 1 position player from that original class even on the team- skelton.

Mix in the fact that we havent had a freshman that is truly a pitcher throw a pitch this year. And only have one on the whole roster. We are operating with about one whole recruiting class

good news for a new coach is he should have plenty of scholarships and roster soace

We are here, because Ron Polk never won a National Championship when he had the upper hand. And our entire fanbase has convinced ourself we are this dynasty when in actuality we are no different than Virginia Tech is in football. And we have wasted a lot of money on a stadium that no average fan can sit in. And quite frankly, I do not get why we are about to waste money on some "proven head coach" who will probably not have the same success here, but instead use us for more $$$.

I have never felt further from a national title in this sport. And I do not see it ever happening now. We are closer to it in Football then here. Polk let LSU surpass him under his nose.

We don't even have that many CWS Appeareance. 9? Really? USC has 21, LSU has 18, Miami has 25, Texas has 35, and Cal State FUllerton has 18. And these are just the baseball powers our of the top of my head. We blew this opportunity under Templeton to become a top tier baseball program and I hope you realize it.

The one thing we did have was the best attendance records. But mark my words, we will never break the old record. No one is going to come to games to pay to stand up. That is the only way anyone can get a ticket to a Mississippi State Baseball game. It is completely dumb.

Literally any other sport I feel good about but this one. And it is sad. I am not sure if I will ever see Mississippi State win a national title in this sport. Hope I am wrong.

 

[tatedog]

We are here, because Ron Polk never won a National Championship when he had the upper hand. And our entire fanbase has convinced ourself we are this dynasty when in actuality we are no different than Virginia Tech is in football. And we have wasted a lot of money on a stadium that no average fan can sit in. And quite frankly, I do not get why we are about to waste money on some "proven head coach" who will probably not have the same success here, but instead use us for more $$$.

I have never felt further from a national title in this sport. And I do not see it ever happening now. We are closer to it in Football then here. Polk let LSU surpass him under his nose.

We don't even have that many CWS Appeareance. 9? Really? USC has 21, LSU has 18, Miami has 25, Texas has 35, and Cal State FUllerton has 18. And these are just the baseball powers our of the top of my head. We blew this opportunity under Templeton to become a top tier baseball program and I hope you realize it.

The one thing we did have was the best attendance records. But mark my words, we will never break the old record. No one is going to come to games to pay to stand up. That is the only way anyone can get a ticket to a Mississippi State Baseball game. It is completely dumb.

Literally any other sport I feel good about but this one. And it is sad. I am not sure if I will ever see Mississippi State win a national title in this sport. Hope I am wrong.

Holy cow if you think we have a better chance for a natty in football than baseball. I disagree with much of this post, but that statement is a true mind blower.

fyi: Northern Colorado has more CWS appearances than all but three SEC schools and Missouri has won the CWS. None of this has any relevance to current college baseball.

 

[wtw2400]

Look at the state of the programs and get off your Mississippi State Baseball is the gold standard of baseball platform and you will see what this program truly is right now. A complete dumpster fire. Football? Yeah because in 2018 I expect Mississippi State to be a SEC Contender which makes them a National Contender.

A named head coach doesn't instantly make this baseball team good in 2019. It is going to take A LOT of recruiting. We are in for an incredible rebuild. Buckle up,

 

[Shamoan]

Meaningless. We simply aren't that committed to winning.

 

[tatedog]

Look at the state of the programs and get off your Mississippi State Baseball is the gold standard of baseball platform and you will see what this program truly is right now. A complete dumpster fire. Football? Yeah because in 2018 I expect Mississippi State to be a SEC Contender which makes them a National Contender.

A named head coach doesn't instantly make this baseball team good in 2019. It is going to take A LOT of recruiting. We are in for an incredible rebuild. Buckle up,

Who said we are the gold standard? I'm saying you quoted a bunch of numbers that have little or nothing to do with current college baseball. We didn't pass baseball "power" Ole Miss in CWS appearances until 1990. Did anyone in their right mind think they were our equal at that time? In our wildest dreams we are the 4th best program in football in our own division currently. We haven't beaten the top team in the last decade. I realize our baseball team is bad this year, but climb down off the bell tower.

 

[wtw2400]

Who said we are the gold standard? I'm saying you quoted a bunch of numbers that have little or nothing to do with current college baseball. We didn't pass baseball "power" Ole Miss in CWS appearances until 1990. Did anyone in their right mind think they were our equal at that time? In our wildest dreams we are the 4th best program in football in our own division currently. We haven't beaten the top team in the last decade. I realize our baseball team is bad this year, but climb down off the bell tower.

So how many opportunities have we had to beat the top team in baseball as opposed to football? I honestly do not know how many times we have defeated the top teams in the SEC the past 10 years. This will mark our 5th losing season in 10 years. In our wildest dreams we are the 5th best program in baseball in our divison currently.

 

[tatedog]

So how many opportunities have we had to beat the top team in baseball as opposed to football? I honestly do not know how many times we have defeated the top teams in the SEC the past 10 years. This will mark our 5th losing season in 10 years. In our wildest dreams we are the 5th best program in baseball in our divison currently.

We are the worst baseball team in the division, but a program and a team are not synonymous. We were the worst team in 2015 and won the conference in 2016. Remind me the last time we won the SEC in football, and then remind me the last time we won the SEC in football after finishing last the previous season. I hope we win the conference in football as much as you do, but history tells me nobody but the big six win in football. If it changes, great, but I'm not holding my breath. In the last 10 years of baseball we finished nationally in the top 8 once, the top 2 once, and top 16 another 3 times. Mixed in between those years we finished dead last in the SEC twice and are likely to make it three times this year. We have come back from being terrible in baseball to compete nationally several times.

In SEC play we are basically a historical push with LSU, generally regarded as the top college baseball program of all time. Without looking up the records, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say we aren't a historical push with anyone in the division in football (including fellow bottom dweller Ole Miss). We won the conference in baseball in 2016. I'm not sure how the instrasquad scrimmages went, so you can count that as a win or loss that year. I dunno. I mean I hope your optimism in football pans out, but there is just no historical base for it whatsoever. You say we are the 5th best "program" in the division right now. Defining a program loosely as performance over the last 10 years, tell me the 4 programs who have done better than top2/top8/top16x3. LSU can claim beating that easily, but I'm not sure the other 5 can. Do you think they can?

 

[Todd4State]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/247spo...all-Class-of-2016-SigneesWalkons-75003137/Amp

Outside of the tommy johns in the 15 class take a look at the 16 class. We ultimately added vansau and macnamee but this is a staggeringly bad class. We only have 1 position player from that original class even on the team- skelton.

Mix in the fact that we havent had a freshman that is truly a pitcher throw a pitch this year. And only have one on the whole roster. We are operating with about one whole recruiting class

good news for a new coach is he should have plenty of scholarships and roster soace

The bottom line is we had a poor recruiting philosophy and it has been exacerbated by the Cann scandal. The good news is Cann was changing that which will probably make "rebuilding" a lot easier. We relied way too much on JUCO players and as you pointed out our balance is out of whack. Also, our 2014 class was really bad and why we don't have any seniors which is hurting us in the leadership department on the field.

 

[tatedog]

delete.

 

[Go Budaw]

Our fanbase needs to chill. This year is going to be a long one. But it isn't indicative of the future prospects.

The class that is signed but not here yet.
View attachment 9903

The class of HS JRs.
View attachment 9904

The class of HS Sophs
View attachment 9905

Recruiting is teed up for huge success.

Legit LOL that, after the Cann scandal, you think those Jr and Soph classes are going to look anything close to what they are now when the respective signing days roll around. And the class that is signed is very likely due some very heavy draft attrition and other potential turnover also. There is literally no point in even bringing up another baseball recruiting thread until August at the earliest. So much **** is going to change between now and then that it is going to make everyone’s head spin.

 

[tatedog]

The bottom line is we had a poor recruiting philosophy and it has been exacerbated by the Cann scandal. The good news is Cann was changing that which will probably make "rebuilding" a lot easier. We relied way too much on JUCO players and as you pointed out our balance is out of whack. Also, our 2014 class was really bad and why we don't have any seniors which is hurting us in the leadership department on the field.

So who do the experts (I'm gonna say you and engie) think is the man to reverse the recruiting philosophy problems. I.e. who is the guy killing it at a program similar to ours right now? I'm no more than a passive observer with baseball recruiting because there are far too many moving parts and it makes my head hurt-- is our recruiting philosophy really that bad or have we just been super unlucky?