Big 12 Expansion Update....

[Smoked Toag]

Looks like they are looking at BYU, UCF, Cincinnati and Houston. Pretty good choices. I'd probably try and get Boise State and Colorado State instead of UCF and Cincinnati, but other that, looks pretty good.

 

[Maroon Eagle]

Cincinnati was probably to keep West Virginia happy and also help out the basketball profile.

 

[Seinfeld]

What’s the appeal of BYU? TV viewership?

 

[MSUDOG24]

Yep, simple as that. "national brand"

 

[Duke Humphrey]

Yes. The Athletic had an article that looked at the numbers, and BYU's tv viewership was as good as or better than anyone else in the XII excluding games in which Texas and Oklahoma played.

 

[DesotoCountyDawg]

Boise St is just too far out of the way. It’s already bad enough adding BYU.

 

[HWY51dog]

Will be interesting how this affects Memphis. I bet Fed Ex tries to step in and help.

 

[Smoked Toag]

Boise St is just too far out of the way. It’s already bad enough adding BYU.

Once you get on the airplane, that little bit of distance doesn't matter. And it's not like they aren't traveling across the country to West Virginia. That doesn't hold much water to me.

But I do think if they want to be more than a conference that just gets raided every 10 years, they need to pick a strategy. Either go east or go west. You have to consider which teams will get raided the easiest. If you add BYU, Boise State, Colorado State, UNLV, etc....will the Pac-12 come calling once they become a bigger brand? Will the ACC come calling if you add Cincinnati and UCF? Not to mention West Virginia. We know the ACC will only add a maximum of 2 teams, whereas the Pac-12 has 4 spots. I can't really see anyone going past 16 anytime soon.

Or, they could stay in middle America and choose a few state schools like a Wyoming and New Mexico. I mean it's not like anybody moves the needle with TV, among the teams who are left, so think outside the box.

 

[Go Budaw]

Boise St is just too far out of the way. It’s already bad enough adding BYU.

Boise and BYU are both a hell of a lot closer to the Big 12 footprint than Morgantown, and both have similar (Boise) or larger (BYU) population bases than WVU to cater to as well.

 

[Cooterpoot]

Nobody is going to take that conference anymore serious than the American. It's G5 level now.

 

[Jeffreauxdawg]

Boise St is a good football brand, but the school is ******. It was a JC up until the 70's. They want in the PAC 12 soo bad, but it will likely never happen because of academics.

But yeah they draw well and would give BYU a good rival, which they already kind of are... As for the distance, Boise is way the hell out here. I made the drive from Dallas to Boise last fall. Dallas (Big 12 HQ) is a shorter drive to NYC and Key West than it is to Boise. Hell, it took me 2 full days (19 hours) to drive from Boise to Omaha earlier this year.

 

[615dawg]

This line from the Athletic article made me do a double take. Those are probably the four of the five best options. Boise State is probably on deck if BYU doesn't work out. The other three will go ahead and write the check to get out of the AAC. BYU may want to hold on to their Independent status.

Cincinnati, Houston and UCF have all played in New Year’s Six bowl games since 2015. BYU came close to reaching one in 2020, going 11-1 and finishing 11th in the final AP poll. Cincinnati is the highest-ranked Group of 5 program in this year’s preseason AP poll at No. 8.

 

[Captain Ron]

Once you get on the airplane, that little bit of distance doesn't matter. And it's not like they aren't traveling across the country to West Virginia. That doesn't hold much water to me.

But I do think if they want to be more than a conference that just gets raided every 10 years, they need to pick a strategy. Either go east or go west. You have to consider which teams will get raided the easiest. If you add BYU, Boise State, Colorado State, UNLV, etc....will the Pac-12 come calling once they become a bigger brand? Will the ACC come calling if you add Cincinnati and UCF? Not to mention West Virginia. We know the ACC will only add a maximum of 2 teams, whereas the Pac-12 has 4 spots. I can't really see anyone going past 16 anytime soon.

Or, they could stay in middle America and choose a few state schools like a Wyoming and New Mexico. I mean it's not like anybody moves the needle with TV, among the teams who are left, so think outside the box.

True, but a lot has to do with Tv. NM does almost nothing. Getting into Florida and Ohio door that matter brings in much bigger Tv markets and exposure. But yes, they could be picked off in the future as well.

 

[patdog]

That’s a much better conference than the AAC. There’s a reason schools are leaving the AAC to go to the Big 12 & not the other way around.

 

[Smoked Toag]

Nobody is going to take that conference anymore serious than the American. It's G5 level now.

Nope. Too many good brands there for them to totally fade to G5 level. Maybe middle class, but not lower class.

 

[Maroon Eagle]

Boise shifted to four-year status in the 60s and joined the NAIA in '68 but everything else looks right.

 

[Jeffreauxdawg]

Touche'. I guess it was 74' when it became a university.

In an interesting side note, Boise State restarted its baseball program in 2020 for the first time since 1980. After 14 games the season was cancelled because of covid and the entire program was scrapped because of budget concerns. 14 games is all it lasted after 40 years. Sad situation for a lot of those players, some of whom transferred in to play in their hometown and childhood favorite school. Maybe a Big 12 boost would help get it going again.

 

[Arthur2478]

Nobody is going to take that conference anymore serious than the American. It's G5 level now.

As of now, no. Those remaining 8 teams aren't much if any different than the American. BUT when they expand, the Big12 will be taking the best teams away from the American. That will knock the American Conference down and elevate the Big12. It'll essentially guarantee the Big12 is the 5th best conference. Whether "P5 "is still a thing going forward or not, you certainly want to be as high up in the pecking order as possible. This is exactly why the Big12 is going to expand.

 

[Smoked Toag]

As of now, no. Those remaining 8 teams aren't much if any different than the American. BUT when they expand, the Big12 will be taking the best teams away from the American. That will knock the American Conference down and elevate the Big12. It'll essentially guarantee the Big12 is the 5th best conference. Whether "P5 "is still a thing going forward or not, you certainly want to be as high up in the pecking order as possible. This is exactly why the Big12 is going to expand.

Wait, what?

Oklahoma State, Texas Tech, Kansas State, Kansas, Baylor, Texas Christian, Iowa State, West Virginia

vs.

UCF, Memphis, Cincinnati, East Carolina, South Florida, Tulane, Houston, Navy

You're high.

 

[Cooterpoot]

Nope. Too many good brands there for them to totally fade to G5 level. Maybe middle class, but not lower class.

Who? TCU, Baylor, OSU? They'll lose their tv deal and fall into obscurity. It'll go down hill pretty fast.

 

[Drebin]

Will be interesting how this affects Memphis. I bet Fed Ex tries to step in and help.

Memphis is a lot more attractive than Cincinnati or Houston. Curious to see how it plays out.

 

[VegasDawg13]

Boise and BYU are both a hell of a lot closer to the Big 12 footprint than Morgantown, and both have similar (Boise) or larger (BYU) population bases than WVU to cater to as well.

You might want to consult a map.

 

[philduckworth]

So no Sunday baseball games with BYU in the conference. I guess they would have to do Thurs-Sat for at least that week.

 

[natchezdawg]

The more wives you have to try to get away from..

the more extra TV's you have to buy...

 

[johnson86-1]

Boise and BYU are both a hell of a lot closer to the Big 12 footprint than Morgantown, and both have similar (Boise) or larger (BYU) population bases than WVU to cater to as well.

I would have made the same mistake as you as far as geography, but on top of that, while Idaho's population is basically the same as Western Virginia's, I've got to think a lot more people in West Virginia care about West Virginia sports than people in Idaho care about Boise St.

 

[johnson86-1]

Memphis is a lot more attractive than Cincinnati or Houston. Curious to see how it plays out.

I'm not sure that's true. Cincinnati MSA is 900k bigger than Memphis's. And I'm not sure OSU and other P5 schools' domination of Cincinatti is any greater than UT and SEC schools is of Memphis. If adding Memphis means FedEx is going to sponsor the Big12 in a big way, then that might swing things.

 

[Drebin]

I'm not sure that's true. Cincinnati MSA is 900k bigger than Memphis's. And I'm not sure OSU and other P5 schools' domination of Cincinatti is any greater than UT and SEC schools is of Memphis. If adding Memphis means FedEx is going to sponsor the Big12 in a big way, then that might swing things.

There are a lot more reasons that Memphis is more attractive outside of market size.

First of all, you mention the FedEx thing.

I don't consider all-time records when looking at football competitiveness and neither should anyone else. Memphis has been very competitive over the last decade and just went to the Cotton Bowl in 2019.

Proximity-wise, Memphis makes a lot more sense than Cincinnati. Plus they play in a better football facility, and are surrounded by fertile recruiting grounds.

And there's more than football to consider.

I just think it's a better fit for the big 12. I honestly don't give a **** who they pick. But there's nothing sexy about Cincinnati.

 

[Smoked Toag]

There are a lot more reasons that Memphis is more attractive outside of market size.

First of all, you mention the FedEx thing.

I don't consider all-time records when looking at football competitiveness and neither should anyone else. Memphis has been very competitive over the last decade and just went to the Cotton Bowl in 2019.

Proximity-wise, Memphis makes a lot more sense than Cincinnati. Plus they play in a better football facility, and are surrounded by fertile recruiting grounds.

And there's more than football to consider.

I just think it's a better fit for the big 12. I honestly don't give a **** who they pick. But there's nothing sexy about Cincinnati.

Memphis was nothing until recently. The most commuter a commuter school has ever been. The most dysfunctional football program there ever has been. But Fedex may change things. I still don't think they are attractive enough for the Big 12, and obviously neither does the Big 12. I don't know that you can say Memphis brings anything simply because they got better the last 7-8 years, and got blown out by the P5 in their bowl games.

But either way, I wouldn't add Cincinnati either. Houston has a lot more history than Memphis, though, and in a freaking enormous metro with plenty of money sources, I would imagine.

 

[Drebin]

Memphis was nothing until recently. The most commuter a commuter school has ever been. The most dysfunctional football program there ever has been. But Fedex may change things. I still don't think they are attractive enough for the Big 12, and obviously neither does the Big 12. I don't know that you can say Memphis brings anything simply because they got better the last 7-8 years, and got blown out by the P5 in their bowl games.

But either way, I wouldn't add Cincinnati either.

The subject is Memphis vs. Cincinnati. My point was that Memphis was more attractive than Cincinnati, not that it was generally attractive.

 

[Smoked Toag]

The subject is Memphis vs. Cincinnati. My point was that Memphis was more attractive than Cincinnati, not that it was generally attractive.

Doesn't Cincinnati have Kroger or something. Not far behind Fedex. Not to mention Cincy's history is definitely better than Memphis, but both are lesser than Houston.

Cincy and Houston have their own on-campus stadiums too with around 40K capacity, that's a plus for atmosphere. The Liberty Bowl is a negative for Tiger High (shout out to the Spirit).

ETA: 6 Fortune 500 companies in Cincy vs. 3 in Memphis (though I'd love to see this change - what's good for the Memphis Metro is good for Mississippi).

 

[Go Budaw]

The subject is Memphis vs. Cincinnati. My point was that Memphis was more attractive than Cincinnati, not that it was generally attractive.

Sounds like the Big 12 is at the bar at 2 AM trying to not go home alone.

 

[Go Budaw]

You might want to consult a map.

Boise’s closer to Lubbock and maybe one or two other cities. Admittedly, I’m guilty of still thinking of Colorado as being in the Big 12 footprint so that was a big part of my error there. Old habits die hard, and what not. Overall though, the point is that geography is a complete nonfactor. You can’t add WVU and then say any other school is off limits because they are a 100-200 miles further away than Morgantown is from any particular Big 12 location.

 

[Fogdog]

I would have made the same mistake as you as far as geography, but on top of that, while Idaho's population is basically the same as Western Virginia's, I've got to think a lot more people in West Virginia care about West Virginia sports than people in Idaho care about Boise St.

"Western Virginia"? Is that anywhere near West Virginia? Western Virginia is what people call the part of Virginia where Virginia Tech is located. It's not a state.
Geography Police now signing out...

 

[Go Budaw]

I would have made the same mistake as you as far as geography, but on top of that, while Idaho's population is basically the same as Western Virginia's, I've got to think a lot more people in West Virginia care about West Virginia sports than people in Idaho care about Boise St.

I don’t know that it’s “a lot” more. It’s probably a little bit more. Both schools are in the 25K - 30K enrollment range, and interest in Boise would certainly ramp up more with them being in a higher profile conference. And I bet both schools have more general interest in their programs than Baylor or TCU, who have much smaller enrollments and alumni bases.

 

[johnson86-1]

"Western Virginia"? Is that anywhere near West Virginia? Western Virginia is what people call the part of Virginia where Virginia Tech is located. It's not a state.
Geography Police now signing out...

Damn I can't believe I typed that. WEll, at least I got it right two out of three times.

 

[johnson86-1]

I don’t know that it’s “a lot” more. It’s probably a little bit more. Both schools are in the 25K - 30K enrollment range, and interest in Boise would certainly ramp up more with them being in a higher profile conference. And I bet both schools have more general interest in their programs than Baylor or TCU, who have much smaller enrollments and alumni bases.

I am betting West Virginia has many more sidewalk fans than Boise State though. This is not entirely scientific, but I am basing the intensity of fandom on the number of couch burnings that take place. I don't think many people in Idaho that didn't attend Boise State are going to engage in property destruction as a result of a Boise State game. In West Virginia on the other hand, I hope those aren't alumni that are burning couches.

 

[Go Budaw]

I am betting West Virginia has many more sidewalk fans than Boise State though. This is not entirely scientific, but I am basing the intensity of fandom on the number of couch burnings that take place. I don't think many people in Idaho that didn't attend Boise State are going to engage in property destruction as a result of a Boise State game. In West Virginia on the other hand, I hope those aren't alumni that are burning couches.

Ha….I certainly can’t argue with any of that. Have an upvote.

As an aside, I’d love to see somebody dig up NutherT’s description from the 2007 trip to Morgantown when describing their fanbase. I believe it made SPS Remembers.

 

[johnson86-1]

There are a lot more reasons that Memphis is more attractive outside of market size.

First of all, you mention the FedEx thing.

I don't consider all-time records when looking at football competitiveness and neither should anyone else. Memphis has been very competitive over the last decade and just went to the Cotton Bowl in 2019.

Proximity-wise, Memphis makes a lot more sense than Cincinnati. Plus they play in a better football facility, and are surrounded by fertile recruiting grounds.

And there's more than football to consider.

I just think it's a better fit for the big 12. I honestly don't give a **** who they pick. But there's nothing sexy about Cincinnati.

I don't necessarily disagree with that, but I'm not sure much else matters outside of market size and how much of a it a school can capture. Both are going to capture a relatively small share of their market. The only argument I can see for Memphis is that UT's incompetence could leave open a window where a decade of successful football from Memphis could allow Memphis to gain meaningful market share. I am not sure Cincinatti being good for a decade would put a dent in OSU's dominance of that market.

 

[Jeffreauxdawg]

You would be right. Lots of transplants from WA, OR, and CA in Boise... But, in a city of 750k, there's still enough blue and orange to make you puke.

 

[Smoked Toag]

Boise *****-slapping Big 12 pet UCF. Another day, another dollar.