God I am so sick of this guy...
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/college/article156649234.html
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/college/article156649234.html
Bilas going out of his way to be defender of the Holes as usual.
- Thread starter KellenPatrick
- Start date
Jay can seriously shut the **** up, especially since he doesn't seem to be RIGHT.
There we have it. So, according to that great legal mind, Jay Bilas, UNC was free to create fake classes primarily for the benefit of its athletes, so long as the classes were opened up to non-athletes. We all know that if those classes were not open for athletes, they would not exist in the same form or at all. Well, if UNCheat skates on this, Cal and UK will no doubt jump on the bandwagon.
And nobody will ever challenge Jay, and even if they do he will weasel out of it.
Guy is just a suck up to coaches and schools because he wants access.
Guy is just a suck up to coaches and schools because he wants access.
He's being challenged on this, and he should be. Jay is so against everything NCAA-related that he's starting to sound like a petulant child.
Playing DevAd for a second, I guess you could interpret that NCAA rule as providing fake grades to ONLY student athletes. If non athletes received fake grades too, then UNC could argue it's not a special benefit, but rather a curriculum loophole for any student seeking an easy grade. That still doesn't cover the fact that athletes were shoveled into those classes. Either way, why is Bilas inserting himself into this? It's just strange for him to stick his neck out for a weak argument like this. He has another motive, just not sure what he's getting out of this.
Guys I think we are missing the bigger picture. Jay has been hired by UNC as paid legal counsel. The man is just doing his job.
So if Lville had offered dancers to regular students as well would Jay state the NCAA had no jurisdiction to punish?
Isn't this the same situation that FSU football had a couple years ago when they took away Bowden's wins?
He's inserting himself into this because he's a basketball commentator, a lawyer from a very distinguished law school (Go Duke Law!), and an open and consistent critic of the NCAA. If he believes the NCAA is violating its rules, he should speak out, even if that NCAA rules violation is targeting UNC.
Now, as to the question of "is Bilas's legal argument correct?"...
I agree that your devil's advocate position is not ridiculous and would support Bilas's position. I'm not saying it's right, but it isn't ridiculous.
The NCAA isn't, and shouldn't be, in the business of regulating academics at a school, no matter how deplorable the school's academic standards are. No matter how fraudulent they are. If student athletes receive no special rights to take these made up classes and instead have the same access to these classes as any member of the student population as a whole, then I can see how Bilas could convincingly argue that technically that's not the NCAA's business.
But I'm not sure I agree. I would hope intent would be relevant. If the bogus classes were created with the intent of benefiting student athletes who otherwise wouldn't be able to maintain academic eligibility, and the school opened the doors to the classes to the general student population solely to try to avoid the NCAA's jurisdiction, then I would hope the NCAA would still have the ability and inclination to investigate and punish. By contrast, a school that is just a sucky school that just historically has always given credit to all of its students for basket weaving, or bowling, or study hall or other BS classes... the NCAA should not have any say in that school's crappy academics, even if those crappy academics have the effect of benefiting student athletes.
The NCAA is about regulating the sports side of things, not the academic side of things.
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I don't hate Bilas like some but I have no earthly idea how he can defend UNC on this one. Makes zero sense.
Geez. The Bilas bashing is so old and pathetic. If he's wrong, argue the case. Don't question his integrity, his character, and make up all kinds of conspiracy theories. It makes you look like a whiner.
To be clear, he's not defending UNC in the sense of claiming it's "right" or even "OK" for UNC to have created fake classes that many of UNC's athletes enrolled in.
He's only saying that the NCAA may not have jurisdiction to prosecute UNC for those actions. That's not in any way equivalent to Bilas arguing that "UNC did nothing wrong," a position he's never taken to my knowledge.
Not too sure this is right either. I think schools have been banged by the NCAA in time past for students taking bogus classes when other students also took them. FSU and ASU are two schools that come to mind.
Thats your opinion....I still think hes gone way over the line to where HE "LOOKS LIKE A WHINER." Lol, a Caroliner Whiner.....
He wont acknowledge the fact the classes were solely created for keeping athletes eligible. If you've followed the case at all you know secretary-paper grader Debbie Crowder stuck non-athletes in those classes (this is in the trail of emails) to make things look better on the surface....OFC
Looks pretty clear right there but the Holes continue to claim that it is somehow an academic issue only and thus the NCAA has nothing to stand on. Really??? Wow.
In those cases, did they have solid proof that athletes were told they had to sign up for the fake classes? McCants claims he was told to take the fake classes, but is there any solid proof that UNC sports brass were dictating everything (DJ has presented some great evidence, but have not seen a real smoking gun)? I'm not sure it's enough that some tutors/advisors/secretaries/phony profs were doing the dirty work. We all know they knew about the scam, Roy included, but in a legal sense there might be nothing the NCAA can do (I think this is what Bilas is arguing). I would argue that the fact that 50% or more of the kids enrolled in the paper scam courses were athletes begs an investigation of how exactly this happened if "all students had access to the classes in question." I'm afraid Bilas has a valid legal point, even if UNC was clearly pissing on their own reputation with this nonsense. I'm glad Duke does things more cleanly. I will concede as a former Dukie, some of our top athletes are guided to less rigorous majors (not told they had to, but nudged), but they still go to all their classes and write their own papers and take their own tests.
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Are we ever gonna stop worrying about what Jay thinks. We really should have better things to discuss. OFC
Sky, when he has something better to discuss than UNC's innocence in all this I will cease talking about Bilas. OFC
Believe FSU athletes and students cheated on take home tests but the class actually existed. Thought I read FSU is looking to have those wins reinstated.
Bilas is our guy and the top analyst in college hoops. If Herbstreit stuck up for Michigan blatantly getting away with infractions, the OSU faithful would do the same.
Half the discussion on this board is about UNC anyways, I think we can talk about one of our former players constantly sticking up for the holes.
To me, the most analogous case to UNC is Syracuse. Some of these players didn't even do the work themselves, and as such were receiving improper assistance to maintain eligibility. It's really not as complicated as people want to make it out, but the law does that lol..
You are right. His issue is and always has been with the NCAA. If the NCAA can't deal with athletes taking fake classes essentially, then there is a problem lol.
Not as long as he keeps being such an obvious dbag.
I used to think he tried to prove to folks that he wasn't biased in favor of Duke because he played and graduated there, then I tried to look at what he said as open minded as possible. He's lost me on this one and the Pitt player transfer though. Enough is enough with him. You're smart Bilas, we all know it. The problem is he knows it too, but someone needs to disagree with him on air and knock this ego of his down a notch or twelve
So UNC's populism for a public school are 25% of students make up the top 5% in wealth in the USA. So if 33% of the population were athletes; as well as 33% of the highest endowed students were also in these classes. That would definitely be absurd and ridiculous. Wonder if anyone has more on the make up of those classes. I doubt they carry that much detail. I would argue that those numbers would not be far off. But that is assuming and you know what that means. But Bilas is a lawyer not a bonafide fact finder.
Don't allow unx , Bilas and whoever to change the subject. The issue ain't about "ez classes" and/or "the NCAA is treading into class rigor territory and they have no jurisdiction there." The NCAA ain't doin' that at all...don't have to. SACS already did and unx agreed. The NCAA is well WITHIN their purview to use those findings. It's also in their wheelhouse to use the Wainstein Report. Holes spent millions on it , Carol Folt endorsed it and now I see some unx fans say , "Wainstein discredited." THAT is an out-and-out lie so don't buy it. If it was discredited why is unx's legal team fightin' tooth an' nail to keep it out? Not being happy with the results don't make it "discredited." Anyway , let's keep it simple. Dr. Ridpath says one thing. Ask yourself the "But for" question. IOW , "But for" athletics , does all this happen? The answer , obviously , is "no." If this was any other school , the only question left to answer would be , "Death Penalty or something close , right?" Instead , unx will get something well below what's deserved and they'll still whine about that. "Two years probation?! A 50,000 dollar fine?! WTF?! We didn't do anything! That's way harsh!"
Has he ever said UNC is innocent? Maybe he has, but I've missed that.
My understanding is that he's questioning whether the NCAA has the jurisdiction over this. None of us, UNC fans included, rationally think they weren't steering athletes to these courses and benefitting from it.
If you're mantra is solely 'UNC cheated' then yeah, we get that. But that's not the argument.
"Petulant child," geez you really stuck it to him yesterday, an about face for you.....I had to re-read that one, guess you got caught up in the moment...
Sorry brother, next time I will try and parse words more carefully for you to say innocent of any wrongdoing by the NCAA....You're the first to challenge it however, so I think most others got my drift. Have a nice hump day
OFC
Even though I have spent hundreds of nights at a Holiday Inn Express I am not an attorney. With that being said my understanding is that when someone joins a voluntary organization such as the NCAA they agreed to abide by their rules which are often different than normal legal procedures such as jurisdiction.,and if they do not like them they are free to leave said organization.Please I would like to hear from some of the attorneys who post on this board to weigh in on this point,
I get the impression reading THR that a fairly large number of them believe there was no conspiracy (steering of athletes to these "bogus" classes). Perhaps it's the irrational sect.
"Petulant child," geez you really stuck it to him yesterday, an about face for you.....I had to re-read that one, guess you got caught up in the moment...
Sorry brother, next time I will try and parse words more carefully for you to say innocent of any wrongdoing by the NCAA....You're the first to challenge it however, so I think most others got my drift. Have a nice hump day
OFC
I feel I'm capable of rational discourse. I've said multiple times I don't agree with Bilas all the time. Just because I disagree with him sometimes doesn't mean my judgment is permanently clouded.
Never ever implied your judgement was "permanently clouded." I would give it completely "fair skies." We are both quite capable of "rational discourse," and we simply see different sides of the issue per this case.....(I was still surprised you referred to Bilas as "petulant child" though)
OFC
There are good lawyers and bad lawyers. There are biased lawyers and unbiased lawyers. There are competent lawyers and incompetent lawyers. There are lawyers who cannot, or refuse to, see the forest for the trees. There are lawyers who twist the facts to suit their arguments and those who do not. And there are lawyers who selectively cite rules out of context and those who do not. And there are lawyers who have the cojones to honestly and objectively address both sides of an issue, rather than giving a shallow legal opinion based upon an incomplete and possibly erroneous set of facts. So, the fact that Bilas is a lawyer should not necessarily provide him with credibility, especially when he ignores issues involving morality, honesty, principle, and, most importantly, logic.
I'd be curious on this as well.
Message boards really aren't the place to find rational people....here included. But I firmly believe many UNC-types and grads know this whole things smells something rotten.
I don't think we completely see different sides, though. You know they cheated. I know they cheated.
Where we differ is that you think Bilas is in UNC's back pocket. Whereas I feel Bilas has become so anti-NCAA that some of his arguments are starting to look silly, thus the 'petulant child' remark from me prior. I can't think of one time where Jay has come to the NCAA's defense in last couple of years. It's just become his narrative. In that regard, it's become harder and harder to defend him.
All that said, taking the NCAA and UNC mess completely out of the equation....I think he is the best college basketball analyst in the country, bar none.
Just a question here, but has Bilas publicly criticized UNC for this scandal? I am asking. I don't listen to him much outside of the game day stuff and his analysis on the teams, so maybe I'm missing something. We all know the Holes cheated, but has Bilas stated that as well? Maybe it's my dark blue goggles I wear but he seems to love questioning the NCAA but loves to compliment the Holes and Roy. I agree that his coverage and breakdown knowledge on the game is great though, maybe the best in the business.