Butch Thompson
- Thread starter Crazy Dawg
- Start date
If our guys don't have basic base running skills by now, they never will. That crap yesterday is what you learn in little league, certainly high school.
No kidding!! What in the 17 were we doing stealing Renfroe with a two run lead in the top of the ninth and one out! That was the dumbest **** I've ever seen in a baseball game! Had we lost that would have been the reason. Pirtle gets a hit which would have moved Renfroe to third. Then you have one of the hottest hitters on the team coming up to bat in Rea! 17 we need to learn how to run bases! 17!1717!!!!!!!
The tag-up on the short pop fly to left field against OSU was one of the worst calls and falls squarely on the shoulders of the 3rd base coach.
I think people are moreso referring to the two instances in the first inning when runners on second tried to advance to third on grounders to the SS, and both were thrown out rather easily. We did that earlier in the CWS too I believe. Frazier maybe, against Oregon State?
Those are read plays that both baserunners misread. There is no way for a 3rd base coach to either "send" or "stop" baserunners on that play. The general rule is that you go on balls behind you -- stay at home on balls in front of you. Late in games or with leads or in "protect" mode, you make it go past the pitcher behind you before going.
Cohen talked about the baserunning mistakes in the postgame press conference and how we've got to get them cleaned up over the next few days...
There's not much "read" to it when you're on 2nd and not in a force situation. All they have to do is to look at the guy fielding the ball. When he makes the throw away from you, you run, or not. It's that simple. Kids have been taught that since Little League. They shouldn't be running on contact.
I don't think we've made an inordinate number of baserunning mistakes this year. I saw about three or four from the majors on baseball tonight last night. They happen even at the hightest levels.
It would be hilarious to bump some threads about Butch from only 3 or 4 years ago
I'm pretty sure we had the hit and run on there. IU recognized the situation and called for a pitch out (or the ball was high and outside, looked like a pitch out to me). Pirtle swung at it anyway with no chance of contact. I don't think it was a straight steal at all.
Since when is "run when they throw away from you or don't" not a "read"? So, you think we should stay at home on a groundball to second base -- and wait till he throws it to first to try to move to third? Duly noted**
"Run on the ball behind you -- stay on the ball in front of you" is a basic rule of higher levels that everyone generally adheres to -- it's not little league "move up on the throw" stuff that rarely happens in real baseball. It may have been possible on the ball deep in the hole that the SS fielded for Renfroe to move up on the throw, but even then it's risky and VERY susceptible to a pump fake -- especially since it was very little chance they were going to be able to throw Pirtle out at first anyway.
The "correct" reads would have been to stay at 2b on both of those plays -- and had Rea up with runners most likely on first and second with 1 out...
baserunning has been inexcusably bad
Sure, some of it is on the individual players, but I could do a better job than our 3rd base coach. He needs to return to what he did prior to this season and let a qualified guy become the 3rd base coach.
Sure, some of it is on the individual players, but I could do a better job than our 3rd base coach. He needs to return to what he did prior to this season and let a qualified guy become the 3rd base coach.
That's correct. It was a hit and run with a pitch out.
Even then, Renfroe's lead was 1-1.5 shuffles too short -- and he started with his hands on his knees and didn't get a good jump at all. You simply correct those little things and he's safe at second even with the pitch out. Hell, he's safe with anything less than a perfect throw anyway.
I've already accepted that these are little fundamental things that teams simply won't do as well under Cohen as they did before for us. Yes, it will drive us all crazy at times, but in the end, Cohen teams are going to come up with legendary hits or pitching performances that the last regime didn't -- and given the results on the field, it is MORE than cancelling out our shortcomings in other facets...
Exactly. Mingione was getting roasted in chat last night but I said there's no way to pick up a coach in that amount of time. You learn that rule in little league and our guys have to be smarter than that. We ran ourselves out of a potential big inning last night. I forget that the whole board isn't in chat. Just seems like it.
I get being upset about those two but they really didn't matter.
Detz was a push, chances are Renfroe would had been thrown out at first and the fielder would have held Detz, so 1 out man on second, even if Detz would have advanced on the Pirtle ground ball 2 out man on third, it would have been a moot point on the Rea SO. So I don't think we wasted any runs.
Exactly.
I'd say over 75% of the "experts" on here wanted him fired after year 1....year two, for sure.
I'd say over 75% of the "experts" on here wanted him fired after year 1....year two, for sure.
You are correct. You draw a line on balls behind you. If it's behind that line, you go. If the ball is in front of you, you go only if it gets through 2nd and 3rd basemen. Not the coach's fault.
Agree that both of those were on the players and not Mingione. You have to wonder how in the hell our players aren't better coached to know how to read that play though. That's been an issue ever since Cohen was hired. The one silver lining is that we really didn't run ourselves out of a big inning. Detz & Renfroe made up for Detz's screwup when Detz stayed in the rundown long enough for Renfroe to take 2nd. We wound up with a man on 2nd with 1 out same as we would have if Detz had made the right play. Only difference is the runner at 2nd was Renfroe instead of Detz. Renfroe screwed us out of a man at 2nd with 2 outs and left us with a man at 1st, but with Rea getting out, it really didn't cost us a run. Still not sure how we didn't just bust that game wide open in the top of the 1st though.
I'm not denying that we made some baserunning errors. They happen at every level of baseball. My point is that these errors are not sufficient to support some of the statements being made here.
LSU had one of the better defensive ball clubs in college baseball history, but made some errors in the UCLA game. I'd also take issue with anyone using terms such as "unacceptable" or "inexcusable" or "horrible defensive team" based upon that. Errors happen even to great defensive teams, and base running errors happen for all teams.
I'm not saying we have a great baserunning team, but over the course of the season, I have not seen an inordinate number of baserunning errors.
LSU had one of the better defensive ball clubs in college baseball history, but made some errors in the UCLA game. I'd also take issue with anyone using terms such as "unacceptable" or "inexcusable" or "horrible defensive team" based upon that. Errors happen even to great defensive teams, and base running errors happen for all teams.
I'm not saying we have a great baserunning team, but over the course of the season, I have not seen an inordinate number of baserunning errors.
Obviously, you're a "higher level" of baseball guy, and I have no right to comment, but I will. I didn't say it wasn't a "read". I said there wasn't much to read in that case. Those guys seemed to be running on contact.
Yes, I am saying that both of them should have been near the bag and watching the play unfold. So,***, duly note that again. If, after the shortstop makes his decision, and they feel they can advance, then they CAN run.
I don't know what point you're making with the "move up on the throw" comment, but runners advancing depending on where a throw is made happens at all levels of baseball.
Yes, I am saying that both of them should have been near the bag and watching the play unfold. So,***, duly note that again. If, after the shortstop makes his decision, and they feel they can advance, then they CAN run.
I don't know what point you're making with the "move up on the throw" comment, but runners advancing depending on where a throw is made happens at all levels of baseball.
Why hit and run when you have a two run lead and one out in the top of the ninth???
I'm really scratching my head on this one. I think you judge a team's fundamental soundness on its statistics and most if not all of our statistics in these "fundamentals" categories are as good or better under Cohen than Polk. For example, our defensive statistics have consistently been at or close to .970 and Polk was usually more in the lower to mid .960 range. Under Cohen, we also attempted more steals and been successful at a higher pecentage. And our ability to execute a bunt is so much better than its ever been in the past. I don't mean to denigrate the fundamental soundness of our teams under Polk, the statistics say our fundamentals are marginally improved under Cohen.
I agree with engie on this one. And running on contact with less than two outs is also bad baserunning by the player.
I don't know what you're agreeing to, but ok. You obviously didn't read what I wrote. They definitely shouldn't have been running on contact. That was my point. He said it was a read and they played it wrong. My only point was that there really was nothing to read. The ball was right in front of them. If they were going to run, it should have been after the shortstop made his play, if it was available.
This is a good post
Whenever you deal with human beings, they are going to make mistakes from time to time. All you can do is accept that and then deal with ways to minimize those mistakes.
Whenever you deal with human beings, they are going to make mistakes from time to time. All you can do is accept that and then deal with ways to minimize those mistakes.
OK, pretend I'm an outsider, someone explain to me objectively what makes him so valuable to our program?
An honest question.
An honest question.
Why not?
We were getting solid contact on that guy -- and "missing" very, very few pitches. They guessed right on that one. Had he not pitched out there, it's a good chance Pirtle pokes one through the 4 or 6 hole -- and Rea is coming up with runners on the corners.
That's simply how we are going to play under this regime. Constant pressure. When it fails, almost everyone will come and ***** about it. When it works, almost everyone will simply ignore it...
We have elite pitching staffs without signing elite talent. The first five words even without the last four is sufficient to justify big money.
We've also had amazing progress from many of our players from year to year.
We've also had amazing progress from many of our players from year to year.
That - at least to run - is actually a pretty by the book call if you have one out and a plus runner at first. You see it often in the majors.
i am no baseball guru, my attempt
1) just his overall knowledge of pitching.
ex. guys that throw 4seam fb, need a good slider because the arm action is the same
ex. guys that throw 2 seam fb, normally throw are 12-6 curve because of arm action ...i may have the fb mixed up
2) his innovativeness to try new things
baseball is a game of adjustments
last non-conf we threw 7-8 starters and would allow them to go only 3-4 ip, this keep innings down and give guys experience
this year our bullpen pitched more ip than our starters, that is unheard until this year
3) his perception among baseball community ...he was up for a hc job at an sec school; other schools want this guy
4)Stratton 1st rounder
5)Chad 17ing Girodo!!
6) 4 and 5 say he knows how to develop a staff
1) just his overall knowledge of pitching.
ex. guys that throw 4seam fb, need a good slider because the arm action is the same
ex. guys that throw 2 seam fb, normally throw are 12-6 curve because of arm action ...i may have the fb mixed up
2) his innovativeness to try new things
baseball is a game of adjustments
last non-conf we threw 7-8 starters and would allow them to go only 3-4 ip, this keep innings down and give guys experience
this year our bullpen pitched more ip than our starters, that is unheard until this year
3) his perception among baseball community ...he was up for a hc job at an sec school; other schools want this guy
4)Stratton 1st rounder
5)Chad 17ing Girodo!!
6) 4 and 5 say he knows how to develop a staff