Can Stoops take UK to a level Brooks couldn't?
- Thread starter ScrewDuke1
- Start date
This one is sort of a no brainer. Brooks had one really good team in 07 which he failed to recruit off of their success, and then another average one in 08, and that's about it. Stoops keeps building for the future all the time by continuing to bring in SEC caliber players at a level never seen before.
Relatively speaking, Brooks got zero support. If Stoops doesn't do a lot better with the support he is being given he is a very poor coach. And I think both were/are very good coaches.
Wait and see. He has everything in place that no other coach has enjoyed that's for sure.
Yeah... apples and oranges... I can give you more than 170 million reasons.
That is true, not about to do it again but in 2010, Joker's first year, I ran an analysis of Florida's roster, and not just the 22 starters on offense and defense but the TWO DEEP averaged not just a four star but a 5.9 four star.
Of course with our "recruiting room", recruiting budget, facilities, etc etc we did have TWO four stars playing------but they were kind of offset by the two walkons that started, and more two stars than three stars.that also started.
Seemed like a pretty incredible talent gap to me.
I like Stoops, I believe he has ALOT to learn but I want him to succeed and I believe in time, if he learns from his mistakes, game management, time management, calling plays on defense PERMANENTLY( Therte are good coaches that call their plays it's no problem) putting this teams players, and success over friends(Elliott) by making the tough decisions that he gets paid MILLIONS to make, then I believe he will be our Legendary hall of fame coach in time.
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If Brooks had the support Stoops has he would still be here.
Well duh he doesn't have 1% of the resources that Brooks had and was promised. Had Brooks had these resources im a firm believer we would've been a 8-10 win team per year considering what he was able to do with some of the worst resources in all of power 5 football and we would've never had the set back we had and stoops would've never even had an opportunity to coach here.
All it takes is investing money to get a hungry fanbase and program on the uptick and now that we have some of the best facilities in all of football we should be on the uptick for years even though it's 40 years overdue. Had Brooks had these resources though I'm almost certain we'd finish top 20 in recruiting every year and we would've been a much more attractive option for players and instead of going from 8 wins to 2 wins we would've went from 8 wins to 10+ wins a season if you include bowl season. I feel like had we invested the money 9 years ago we would've been in the position that MSU had been in the last few years if not better.
I feel like it's almost impossible for stoops to not surpass the level Brooks took us too considering the difference in resources each coach had is night and day. So since Stoops has literally a thousand times more to work with than Brooks did he should at least surpass what Brooks did by about 2 wins a year. I do feel like if Brooks had these resources though that we would've been a modern day powerhouse already and that he would've done better than stoops did or could've ever dreamed of with these resources seeing what Brooks did with literally nothing to work with. I don't believe stoops would've been able to even come close to matching what Brooks did if he had the same resources. If stoops had to work with what Brooks had to work with I don't think we would've ever seen more than 4 wins in a season with stoops when Brooks was taking us to 8 win seasons with no 4 stars and a roster loaded with 2 stars.
Quite amazing when you think about it. For example compare the recruiting rooms. it used to be a table with metal chairs in a terrible location of the stadium. To a state of the art facility. I'm not saying this to knock stoops at all either it's just a testament to how great of a coach Brooks was. I don't feel like there's a snow balls chance in hell he could've replicated what Brooks did had he had the same resources Brooks had. So yea stoops will surpass what Brooks was able to do it's a guarantee at this point due to the facilities. But Brooks IMO is light years of a better coach because he was able to do it, all while being severely handicapped in comparison to the rest of the SEC and resources to recruit with. But stoops is in the beginning of his head coaching career. So who's to say in 10-15 years that he wouldn't have reached the level of Brooks as far as just pure coaching ability goes.
All it takes is investing money to get a hungry fanbase and program on the uptick and now that we have some of the best facilities in all of football we should be on the uptick for years even though it's 40 years overdue. Had Brooks had these resources though I'm almost certain we'd finish top 20 in recruiting every year and we would've been a much more attractive option for players and instead of going from 8 wins to 2 wins we would've went from 8 wins to 10+ wins a season if you include bowl season. I feel like had we invested the money 9 years ago we would've been in the position that MSU had been in the last few years if not better.
I feel like it's almost impossible for stoops to not surpass the level Brooks took us too considering the difference in resources each coach had is night and day. So since Stoops has literally a thousand times more to work with than Brooks did he should at least surpass what Brooks did by about 2 wins a year. I do feel like if Brooks had these resources though that we would've been a modern day powerhouse already and that he would've done better than stoops did or could've ever dreamed of with these resources seeing what Brooks did with literally nothing to work with. I don't believe stoops would've been able to even come close to matching what Brooks did if he had the same resources. If stoops had to work with what Brooks had to work with I don't think we would've ever seen more than 4 wins in a season with stoops when Brooks was taking us to 8 win seasons with no 4 stars and a roster loaded with 2 stars.
Quite amazing when you think about it. For example compare the recruiting rooms. it used to be a table with metal chairs in a terrible location of the stadium. To a state of the art facility. I'm not saying this to knock stoops at all either it's just a testament to how great of a coach Brooks was. I don't feel like there's a snow balls chance in hell he could've replicated what Brooks did had he had the same resources Brooks had. So yea stoops will surpass what Brooks was able to do it's a guarantee at this point due to the facilities. But Brooks IMO is light years of a better coach because he was able to do it, all while being severely handicapped in comparison to the rest of the SEC and resources to recruit with. But stoops is in the beginning of his head coaching career. So who's to say in 10-15 years that he wouldn't have reached the level of Brooks as far as just pure coaching ability goes.
There was never a matter of not providing Coach Brooks the facilities Coach Stoops has today. A $500 million deal was in place in 2007 for CWS upgrades, football training facility and new baseball stadium. That went south when the Great Recession interceded. Coach Brooks was 68 and decided to retire. He was a good coach in the twilight of his coaching career that resurrected (one more time) our football program in another dark time of our history. When he left there was no one who wanted the job much as it was when Rich decided to become coach. The job went to Joker who wasn't up to being a head coach. As the nation emerged from the recession, CMS sold a vision and the boosters came through plus resourceful financing. Now we have facilities that are the envy of P5 schools. CMS has youth as a coach, respect across the coaching fraternity and now a staff that not only can recruit, but win. I've been a fan since childhood in the 50s. This is finally the time and place where our football program can compete and challenge for championships.
We should sit back and enjoy what is to come. It won't be always be great, but it will be exciting. And, be thankful coaches Gran and Hinshaw are wearing blue.
3 games into the season, half the people on the forum wanted him run out of town on a rail, now we are discussing if he is the best UK coach in the modern era.
I love Internet message boards.
I love Internet message boards.
Well duh he doesn't have 1% of the resources that Brooks had and was promised. Had Brooks had these resources im a firm believer we would've been a 8-10 win team per year considering what he was able to do with some of the worst resources in all of power 5 football and we would've never had the set back we had and stoops would've never even had an opportunity to coach here.
All it takes is investing money to get a hungry fanbase and program on the uptick and now that we have some of the best facilities in all of football we should be on the uptick for years even though it's 40 years overdue. Had Brooks had these resources though I'm almost certain we'd finish top 20 in recruiting every year and we would've been a much more attractive option for players and instead of going from 8 wins to 2 wins we would've went from 8 wins to 10+ wins a season if you include bowl season. I feel like had we invested the money 9 years ago we would've been in the position that MSU had been in the last few years if not better.
I feel like it's almost impossible for stoops to not surpass the level Brooks took us too considering the difference in resources each coach had is night and day. So since Stoops has literally a thousand times more to work with than Brooks did he should at least surpass what Brooks did by about 2 wins a year. I do feel like if Brooks had these resources though that we would've been a modern day powerhouse already and that he would've done better than stoops did or could've ever dreamed of with these resources seeing what Brooks did with literally nothing to work with. I don't believe stoops would've been able to even come close to matching what Brooks did if he had the same resources.
If stoops had to work with what Brooks had to work with I don't think we would've ever seen more than 4 wins in a season with stoops when Brooks was taking us to 8 win seasons with no 4 stars and a roster loaded with 2 stars. Quite amazing when you think about it. For example compare the recruiting rooms. it used to be a table with metal chairs in a terrible location of the stadium. To a state of the art facility. I'm not saying this to knock stoops at all either it's just a testament to how great of a coach Brooks was. Not to say though that in 10-15 years that stoops couldn't be on the same level as far as coaching ability goes considering he's still in the beginning stages of his career and has a ways to go.
Also Brooks was competing in an exponentially better SEC than stoops is right now. We had to scratch and claw to win every game during those seasons. The east was the best division in all of football. And due to lack of depth because of some of the worst facilities in all of p5 football later in the seasons in the final stretch we'd run out of gas and lose some games that we probably should've won because not much depth outside of the starters. Truly feel like had we had resources back then we would've had multiple top 10 finishes and could've even competed for a national championship and would've been a modern powerhouse like say a Clemson. Ugh what should've been.
Yea of course stoops is going to win more than brooks did dumb question and it has nothing to do with stoops possibly being a better coach because it's gonna be a long long time til he's even half the coach Brooks was Brooks is an HOF caliber coach. Now we have facilities second to none that even put our basketball facilities to shame. Just a real silly question because of the difference in facilities. If Brooks had these things to sell recruits on. We all saw what we did with rosters loaded with 2 stars and players with offer sheets full of MAC schools. Just imagine if he had something to sell recruits on and what he would've done with no 2 stars many many many 4 stars and a bunch of high end 3 stars. It's amazing to me that Brooks was able to complete a roster of 20+ scholarship players a year. Our facilities pre-stoops are truly shameful. We were winning 8 games with absolutely nothing to sell recruits on. If Brooks had this. We'd have some 11 win seasons to hang our hat on right now.
All it takes is investing money to get a hungry fanbase and program on the uptick and now that we have some of the best facilities in all of football we should be on the uptick for years even though it's 40 years overdue. Had Brooks had these resources though I'm almost certain we'd finish top 20 in recruiting every year and we would've been a much more attractive option for players and instead of going from 8 wins to 2 wins we would've went from 8 wins to 10+ wins a season if you include bowl season. I feel like had we invested the money 9 years ago we would've been in the position that MSU had been in the last few years if not better.
I feel like it's almost impossible for stoops to not surpass the level Brooks took us too considering the difference in resources each coach had is night and day. So since Stoops has literally a thousand times more to work with than Brooks did he should at least surpass what Brooks did by about 2 wins a year. I do feel like if Brooks had these resources though that we would've been a modern day powerhouse already and that he would've done better than stoops did or could've ever dreamed of with these resources seeing what Brooks did with literally nothing to work with. I don't believe stoops would've been able to even come close to matching what Brooks did if he had the same resources.
If stoops had to work with what Brooks had to work with I don't think we would've ever seen more than 4 wins in a season with stoops when Brooks was taking us to 8 win seasons with no 4 stars and a roster loaded with 2 stars. Quite amazing when you think about it. For example compare the recruiting rooms. it used to be a table with metal chairs in a terrible location of the stadium. To a state of the art facility. I'm not saying this to knock stoops at all either it's just a testament to how great of a coach Brooks was. Not to say though that in 10-15 years that stoops couldn't be on the same level as far as coaching ability goes considering he's still in the beginning stages of his career and has a ways to go.
Also Brooks was competing in an exponentially better SEC than stoops is right now. We had to scratch and claw to win every game during those seasons. The east was the best division in all of football. And due to lack of depth because of some of the worst facilities in all of p5 football later in the seasons in the final stretch we'd run out of gas and lose some games that we probably should've won because not much depth outside of the starters. Truly feel like had we had resources back then we would've had multiple top 10 finishes and could've even competed for a national championship and would've been a modern powerhouse like say a Clemson. Ugh what should've been.
Yea of course stoops is going to win more than brooks did dumb question and it has nothing to do with stoops possibly being a better coach because it's gonna be a long long time til he's even half the coach Brooks was Brooks is an HOF caliber coach. Now we have facilities second to none that even put our basketball facilities to shame. Just a real silly question because of the difference in facilities. If Brooks had these things to sell recruits on. We all saw what we did with rosters loaded with 2 stars and players with offer sheets full of MAC schools. Just imagine if he had something to sell recruits on and what he would've done with no 2 stars many many many 4 stars and a bunch of high end 3 stars. It's amazing to me that Brooks was able to complete a roster of 20+ scholarship players a year. Our facilities pre-stoops are truly shameful. We were winning 8 games with absolutely nothing to sell recruits on. If Brooks had this. We'd have some 11 win seasons to hang our hat on right now.
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Stoops>>Brooks
Stoops is building a foundation to form his legacy here. Stoops will build his program and stay here. Brooks would have built and left.
Stoops is building a foundation to form his legacy here. Stoops will build his program and stay here. Brooks would have built and left.
I think the best stoops could ever get us in an 8!win season. Thats nonknock on stoops it is what it is. That being said, I hope he continues to build on this year from here on out
OK, we are winning because our opponents who used to beat us like peasants in the street are so weak that Donald Duck could win with our current team. Your idolatry of coach Brooks is respectful. He is an old school football coach whose methods are what many of us admire. However, I'll take CMS and this current staff coupled with our facilities and ability to recruit 3 and 4 star athletes building depth Rich never had to compete in the SEC.
No offense, but he almost got us to 8 wins this year. With an improving, but still somewhat flawed and young team. I don't think you can put a ceiling on where Stoops can take us over the long haul. Keep building those recruiting pipelines at these powerhouse high school program and recruiting can get even better. On top of all that, the state of Kentucky is producing a higher number of SEC talent. If that trend continues, and Kentucky continues to dominate in-state recruiting(Alabama aside), it will make UK's recruiting job just a little bit easier.
Next year's team has the experience and talent to win 10 games. They also play a schedule that could also mean 6 or 7 wins. All Stoops needs to do is work his plan, keep redshirting talent, and build this program from the ground up. He's probably a little over halfway there. UK needs a sustained run of 10 years IMO to get our program to a level that with the right hires and continued support, even a coaching change won't kill that momentum. My hope is that Stoops stays another 5 years minimum and puts this program on that type of foundation, which hopefully includes bigger and bigger bowls, regular top 25 rankings, and possibly an SEC East title. DO THAT, and we'll have no problems recruiting or finding a new coach when that time comes.
TLDR; Yes he can get us there.
It was too long to read. I will tell you my opinion. Stoops is the first coach since Claiborne to try to build the program from the bottom up, the only way you can build a sustainable SEC team. Brooks came in as the only guy that would take the job and did what he could. He did well, primarily through scheduling. We beat LSU, but other than that we didn't really beat anyone we shouldn't have. Before anyone reminds me of Stevie getting loose, UL was ranked high at the time, but petered out. I think Rich Brooks took a job no one wanted, and did a great job at it. I'm glad he did. I wished he hadn't pushed Joker onto the administration. I have said since Curci that we need a 7-10 build to get big guys and linebackers to make this program thrive. Skill players are a dime a dozen, big uglies are not. Even when we sucked in the 80's, every team knew they played Kentucky because we hit people. We are getting back there. Stoops is building a foundation from the bottom up that I pray we will sustain.
BTW,Stoops was a big part of raising the money to get the new facilities. Brooks couldn't do that.
Brooks started from the very bottom as well. With way less to work with. We were in the best division in football and definitely would've won games like the UT game in OT had we had facilities tomgrt players to have depth vs other good teams. We beat UGA with Brooks, South Carolina if I can recall, Clemson, FSU, East Carolina was good the year we beat them. Brooks had a way more difficult schedule back then the difference in the East division then and now is night and day he had way less of a schedule.
Had Mitch not lied to brook, he would've stayed longer, had we had the facilities then that we have now. We were winning 8 games a year with nothing to sell recruits on. We would've had an 11 win season and competed for the SEC if we had what we had now when Brooks was here no doubt. He coached a team full of 2 stars and weak offer sheets to 8 wins season and .500 in the SEC. As far as judging them based on today. Brooks did it for much longer at multiple program Brooks is a better coach he just didn't get the facilities he was promised like stoops did. And because of so he knew there was no way to sustain the success and retired.
Brooks never had a winning season in the SEC. He won 8 games twice by scheduling weak and winning bowl games against down teams. If he beats MSU or USCjr in 07, he is great, but he didn't. I like him and love the program, but don't build a statue, he was the only one that would take the job, and he left the cupboard bare. Plus, he set up Joker as "coach in waiting" to keep him from leaving and we all know that was a mistake.
The great offense in 07 had one four star, Woodson, from Kentucky. The next highest rated was Little, a 5.6. We had two LATE 5.5s, Burton that was turned down by Louisville, and Tamme, that was turned down by Morris. both from Kentucky We had a JC two star that got loose against UL, with not just a two star but a FOUR POINT NINE two star in legacy recruit Lyons.
The amazing part is that the OL AVERAGED about a 5.2 for the five positions. Our best OL was a lofty 5.1, that had a long NFL career.
So that starting O averaged about a 5.34 for the starting eleven--------well below a three star, below any commit we have had in the past two classes IIRC. That is a FACT, as unbelievable as it may seem now.
AND the depth was atrocious, losing Little for the Florida game after our upset of LSU was a killer.
Our team this year could have had a starting O that averaged OVER a four star IF that was the most important thing (it isn't), with a little juggling and with Barker, Boom, and Young starting, and not too far off from that with the starting lineup we did use, probably above it without five star Young if we took our Remington candidate out of the lineup..
Joker, as our main recruiter, fired a bunch of very good coaches to rectify what he thought was our biggest problem, lack of recruiting with a dismal recruiting budget, travel arrangements, etc that made some coaches confine their their recruiting to the city limits. Unfortunately while he added a FOUR star and three 5.7s (to the ONE 5.7 we had, Sanders), at the last minute NONE of the four did didley, and the new coaching staff failed miserably, including Joker as a head coach. Not that I blame him, with his support.
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Rich Brooks coached Kentucky 2003-09. When Brooks came here, Kentucky football was in bad shape because Mumme left us in trouble with the NCAA. Brooks produced bowls in 2006, 07, 08, 09, and his players got to another bowl in 2010 with Joker. Brooks had 1 season in which Kentucky's SEC record was 4-4. Brooks beat LSU the nation's #1 team in 2007. At the time, those were big steps forward for our football program. Stoops got here in 2013. Stoops has recruited (legally) better than any other Kentucky football coach, and Stoops has been central to fundraising (as was Brooks in his day). Stoops and Barnhart remodeled Commonwealth Stadium and replaced the Nutter Center with a new, state of the art building. Stoops already has a 4-4 SEC season. Stoops is taking Kentucky to the Gator (Taxslayer) Bowl this year, our best bowl since the Outback in 1998. Next year, we have 19 incumbent starters and both kickers coming back. So, a year from now, Stoops ought to have mainly surpassed the level of what Brooks accomplished here.
1. If Stoops can go on a 3 year run of at least 6-6...he'll have done about exactly what Brooks has accomplished....plus win some of the bowls.
2. If Stoops pushes to an 8 win season or more n regular season...he'll accomplish more than Brooks could in her era.
3. As long as Marrow is around...I think it is safe to say the talent level at UK and what will be inherited in future years will be greater than what Brooks left. Brooks really left only 1 years of talent for Joker (Hartline, Cobb, Locke, Matthews, good OL, Trevethan) but after that it was some bad talent level.
2. If Stoops pushes to an 8 win season or more n regular season...he'll accomplish more than Brooks could in her era.
3. As long as Marrow is around...I think it is safe to say the talent level at UK and what will be inherited in future years will be greater than what Brooks left. Brooks really left only 1 years of talent for Joker (Hartline, Cobb, Locke, Matthews, good OL, Trevethan) but after that it was some bad talent level.
Yes, he will and recruiting wise he already has.
Brooks did amazing with what he had. A side of Nutter as his recruiting area and still managed to bring in talented guys like Danny Trevathan, etc. If Brooks did have the support that Stoops had, I don't know if he would still be coaching because when he retired in 09, he was already 68, 69 years old but he could've brought in more talent if he had the facilities, stadium upgrade that Stoops has.
Brooks did amazing with what he had. A side of Nutter as his recruiting area and still managed to bring in talented guys like Danny Trevathan, etc. If Brooks did have the support that Stoops had, I don't know if he would still be coaching because when he retired in 09, he was already 68, 69 years old but he could've brought in more talent if he had the facilities, stadium upgrade that Stoops has.
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Copy that! I hate to think what would have happened if Harbaugh got away with stealing Marrow off to Ann Arbor last year. Marrow isn't the only coach in America who can recruit. Theoretically, he isn't irreplaceable. But he has been in the middle of almost every key Stoops commitment, including all the Ohio players like Benny, Rose, Conrad, GAA, Meadows, Edwards, West, Jones, Ajian, Richardson, Clark. Marrow is also Paschal's and Watkins' lead recruiter. It is scary to think where Stoops would be now without Marrow. Great hire at the time.
You do realise how old Brooks was and therefor how many years of head coach experience and football knowledge he had when he came here don't you. Give coach Stoops that time and experience and see what he will do!
Left? You mean retire?!?! I hate the crap Brooks receives sometimes on here. He made us respectable through a lot of adversity. He should be honored accordingly. Joker on the other hand should never be forgiven and never be allowed to step foot on campus again in terms of uk football. Devastated the program and the fans.
From all I can gather Brooks was pleading for the new facilities and more financial support for football team in general. Brooks did a great job with what he had to work with; maybe even miraculous. These recruits today want to be WOWED! with new and shiny things, but when Brooks seen the funds weren't coming he new he had done all he could do without the support from administration. Stoops came in with a plan that started with good recruiting and he implemented his new facilities plan before the team became successful, and now the recruiting will get even better do to the WOW factor being in place. This should result in a team on the field like we have never witnessed in my lifetime at Ky!!!!!!
I agree with most of what you say here. Brooks saved Kentucky football, and set the stage for what Stoops is doing now. Thus Brooks deserves great credit. But you are out of line on Joker. All of us know that Joker blew his opportunity and cost our football program 6 years. That isn't disputed. But Joker is a Kentuckian, a UK grad, and a former all SEC player for us. Nobody on this board can say those things about themselves. Joker was recommended for our HC job by Brooks. I'm sorry that Joker was an unsuccessful HC. But your harsh wishes for him are silly.
He got rid of all of Brooks staff. He wanted his own agenda. Failed miserably. Maybe I was a little harsh but I could care less about him. Good offensive coordinator though.
I personally think he already has. The state of the football program is the best we've been in decades. He's improved every facet of it. Every single thing it takes to have a program is better. He got the boosters and administration to buy in completely, such that they've invested hundreds of millions into it, into him. He's recruited at a high level comparative to our past, and is building the kind of depth it takes to compete in the SEC.
If he disappeared inexplicably from the face of the earth, as if by magic, the football program could carry on getting better because of the work he put in laying the foundation. Regardless of his future, UK football fans owe Mark Stoops a great deal of gratitude for transforming the program.
If he disappeared inexplicably from the face of the earth, as if by magic, the football program could carry on getting better because of the work he put in laying the foundation. Regardless of his future, UK football fans owe Mark Stoops a great deal of gratitude for transforming the program.
You don't think beating Georgia twice was a big deal. Or beating Auburn on the plains? What about Clemson? or the beat down he put on FSU? with a couple of breaks he nearly beat Tennessee about 5 times. Should have taken down florida in 2003. He had a 14 point lead in the 4th quarter. Refs took the game from us
The point is you are out of line saying Joker or any other former UK football player should not be welcome on campus. That's nuts.