I think Brooks was the better game coach due to his long experiences before coming to UK. May change my mind over the next 10 years as MS develops. Outside that, Stoops is better imo - recruiting certainly, but also overall program management. And he's really built a top notch staff to support him.
Can Stoops take UK to a level Brooks couldn't?
- Thread starter ScrewDuke1
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Brooks top three coaches including himself failed to set up any type recruiting connection to their past and his offense he brought with him did not work because of lack of talent. Joker his recruiting Co. did set up a pipeline from his connection to the Georgia, South Carolina area and it seems that they got several players at first that had been injured in there jr or senior year and therefore was under the radar. It seems every Coach Stoops hires
is able to tap into there past connections and it seems Stoops and crew has Recruited for the long haul.So my answer is YES.
is able to tap into there past connections and it seems Stoops and crew has Recruited for the long haul.So my answer is YES.
Not out of line. Just have no feelings for him with uk football.
Stoops is a great recruiter, still learning fine points of being a head coach. Brooks was a so so recruiter who understood everything about being a head coach. Big difference, but Stoops is much younger than Brooks. What Brooks and Stoops have in common is both come from a defensive coordinator background. As you said, the biggest weakness remaining for Stoops is game management. I never thought Brooks was a brilliant game manager, but his experience gave him poise and he was seldom caught by surprise. Stoops might mature into a better game coach, but he still has a way to go. It's more than clock management. But Eddie Gran is covering up some of that now. IMO.
I think you're missing the point. Every single year. We schedule 3 weak OOC teams and Louisville due to the grueling SEC schedule. So I have no clue what you're talking about when you say he scheduled a certain way so we could win more. The scheduling then is the same way it is now. 3 weak OOC teams and Louisville. So that point you keep making is beyond moot. In fact the schedules he went up against are much more difficult then what we face today due to how much stronger the East division was then. Fact of the matter is. With a top 10 strength of schedule. He was winning 8 games. What do you mean he left the cupboard bare? What choice did he have once Mitch decided to not fulfill his promise and invest? There was no way in hell he was going to be able to sustain success with some of the worst facilities in all of P5 football. He had no chance to pull top recruits because who wants to practice with the worst facilities in all of P5 football when you don't have to? No one wanted to play here. So he didn't leave the cupboard bare. The cupboard was bare the entire time he coached here.
We were never able to create a quality roster at any point in his career. If we had any resources whatsoever to work with. We would've had a lot more depth. And we would've won a lot more games. If we had the resources we have now back when he was here no doubt we win an extra 2-3 games a year due to actually having something to sell recruits on. We would've beaten MSU, Florida and Tennessee in OT had we had these resources back then so we could build depth. But he had none of that. And while not having anything to sell recruits on. An AD that broke a promise to invest in the program. He left because Mitch wasn't giving him a chance to make something of our program. So factor in some of the worst facilities in all of P5 football, an AD refusing to invest. And a roster with no depth at all. The toughest division in all of football, a much tougher schedule then what we face this season. And he was still able to beat the National Champion LSU team. Was able to beat a decent UL team. A decent UGA team, a decent Auburn team. He beat a pretty damn good Clemson team. A pretty good FSU team (not by their standards), a pretty good East Carolina team. I think it's absolutely unbelievable what he was able to achieve here with what he had to work with. Every team in the SEC schedules 3-4 cupcakes a year because of how grueling the SEC is. As far as your scheduling argument goes. It's invalid as it gets. Had we had resources that we could build depth with like we do today. We would've won 10-11 games some season. If Brooks had the resources we had today. We would be a modern day powerhouse.
Bottom line is Mitch broke a promise and set our program back 10 years when it was ready to take the next step. You're definitely selling brooks short considering what he had and what he was able to do with what he had. He did an incredible job here. He basically made miracles happen considering the roster we had due to some of the worst facilities in football. I feel like you're completely missing the point on all of this. Brooks is an HOF caliber coach which is why we won 8 games 2 different season with a roster loaded with 2 stars with a very very difficult schedule. Much more difficult then what we gave today considering how weak the East is. Your argument as far as scheduling goes literally makes no sense. For a very long time now our OOC schedule has looked something like this. UL..... and 3 cupcakes. That's what it is today. And that's what it was then. And you don't choose your conference schedule those games we have no control over. And those weak schedules Brooks was going up against. We're top 10 SOS's. He won 8 games. With a top 10 SOS. With a roster loaded with 2 stars. Truly an amazing coach. We would've beaten UT the year we lost in OT if we had any resources whatsoever to build depth with. And we still should've won with nothing to work with. So he is at no fault in any game we lost because we had no way of building depth.
You keep saying that Mitch Barnhart broke his promise to invest. But didn't the bottom fall out of the economy around that point? Isn't it possible that the funds that were there originally were no longer there?
Brooks had a knack for getting the most out of unheralded talent and spotting diamonds in the rough. Also, much of his success was predicated on good ol' fashioned luck. How many UK coaches came along and found in-state, NFL caliber recruits at the QB (Woodson), WR (Burton, TE (Tamme), DT (Peters), and LB (Johnson) within two years of one another. That's a lot of NFL talent coming out of Kentucky in a short time--highly abnormal. One could make the argument that Brooks molded them into NFL talent, but it's even with good development that is still a lot of gems from our own backyard. That flow of Kentucky bred ability wasn't going to last (and Brooks wasn't an ace out of state recruiter) so it's no surprise that the talent level waned in the closing days of Brooks' tenure.
Stoops, on the other hand, has built the program up the old fashioned way: recruited a level of talent that is above and beyond what UK generally gets. He's smartest move was to muscle into Ohio and get kids that were OSU and Michigan's second targets, but could be UK primary targets. That is a sustainable model that will reap long-term benefits.
Stoops, on the other hand, has built the program up the old fashioned way: recruited a level of talent that is above and beyond what UK generally gets. He's smartest move was to muscle into Ohio and get kids that were OSU and Michigan's second targets, but could be UK primary targets. That is a sustainable model that will reap long-term benefits.
Coach Brooks turned out to be the man for UK football hard times. He took the job no other respected coach wanted.
Mark Stoops sold Mitch a well constructed plan to rebuild the mess Joker left. By the way, two other head coaches turned down invited interview.
Quality commit players over the last four years are at a all time high for CATS football!
Coach Stoops particularly this past season has corrected on field coaching along with new coach hires!
It's important to win and look good winning our upcoming bowl game! And I expect we will!
Mark Stoops sold Mitch a well constructed plan to rebuild the mess Joker left. By the way, two other head coaches turned down invited interview.
Quality commit players over the last four years are at a all time high for CATS football!
Coach Stoops particularly this past season has corrected on field coaching along with new coach hires!
It's important to win and look good winning our upcoming bowl game! And I expect we will!
Another discredited anti-Barnhart perspective. We have a $200 million stadium renovation, a brand new office/practice complex, a date later this month for the Gator Bowl. Our coaches have received raises. Barnhart kept Marrow here when Harbaugh tried to hire him away. Clearly, Barnhart has supported Stoops to the hilt, in so doing supporting Kentucky football. If you still don't believe he supported Brooks, then explain why he didn't fire Brooks in 2005 when our entire fan base was demanding that. You were probably 1 of them.
Wrong and nuts. Joker was not successful as a head coach, but he is a UK grad and a former all SEC player for our team. For you to say he shouldn't be welcome on campus is petty, in addition to being out of line.
Of course he can. Brooks basically came out of retirement to build some foundation. Stoops has his whole career in front of him
Which happens to be exactly right. Now capital projects are rapidly and successfully moving forward, spurred by low interest rates, successful fundraising initiatives, more receptive politics in Frankfort, and somewhat better economic conditions. UK's capital improvement plans are evident all over campus, not just in projects dear to football fans. Look at the campus. All of this construction is coordinated in a larger plan. Kentucky's football facilities are state of the art.
You obviously have no idea of how much help he had from above in running the program into the ground. Barely above ground to start with.
By the way, he ended the streak against Thug U with a WR pla;ying QB and upset top ten USC and the OBC with TWO four stars playing while they had THIRTY NINE four star commits the previous four years PLUS a five star------and while the five star didn't play the second half our very good RB didn't play the whole game. He also came within three points of upsetting the NC with Cam Newton.
Yeah hal Mumme also beat bama. Listen I get it he went to uk, so did a lot of players. It is what it is, we got our man now.
He had a very good reason for getting rid of some of those guys-------although they were VERY good coaches some didn't want to recruit at all, and given the second class travel mitch's recruiting budget mandated I'm not sure I blame them that much. Joker was close to Marrow in being our main recruiter back then, and he recognized that our MAIN problem was LACK OF RAW TALENT-------you CAN'T win consistently in the SEC with TWO four stars playing (offset by two walkons starting) and more TWO stars than three stars starting-------which is EXACTLY what my analysis of the starters against Florida his first year showed we put on the field against a team that had a TWO DEEP that averaged OVER a 5.9 on BOTH offense and defense. UNBELIEVABLY overmatched talent wise, and some of our fans, probably including you IF you were around, though he should have beat them.
And Joker was a VERY good recruiter, after being hired he did bring in our only four star and three of the four 5.7s we had in the class--------and he was responsible for Sanders that was already committed.
If he was such a lousy coach (two LATE 5.5s, a two star JC, and a FOUR POINT NINE commit turned into our best WR corp ever)--------three with NFL careers (two still playiing?) and the 4.9 with a shot without injuries. As RC at Florida he had top five classes BOTH years IIRC.
There is someone that deserves a LOT more credit for running UK football into the ground than Joker does. JMO
Too bad we don't have a dislike choice, even if I agree we got our man now. For a while there I wasn't sure whether "our man" wasn't Marrow instead of Stoops, Marrow (Stoops also from Ohio helped) did the most to improve our BIGGEST problem, IMO--------lack of raw talent. What recruit could ever believe UK wasn't just a basketball school after seeing our "recruiting room", that the $160,000 spent on hanging some pictures on a wall somewhere could have made about a thousand times more palatable.
This stuff about Brooks not being a good recruiter is laughable. If he had half the money and facilities Stoops has, it would of made a difference. Oh and Vince Marrow too.
Silly hypothesis, Stoops would have never come here, what choices did mitch have when Brooks came here OR when he hired Joker. By the way, the HCIW worked great for Brooks at Oregon.
And Gran and Hinshaw would have never been here either. You saw Stoops record with the talent here when Joker coached (PLUS a very good class he brought in after being hired)------- ZERO SEC wins and TWO OOC wins, the same as Joker with some new talent added.
AND he was given the money to hire AND keep that top notch staff, not like the old days when Brown was kept on as "Co DC" in order to save his buyout.
mitch invested most of the money from the MONEY COW in the minor sports-------and I follow almost all the minor sports. BUT if he had invested anything above the BARE MINIMUM of that money back into football he would have had even more money to invest in the minor sports, IMO.
mitch had a $5,000,000 bonanza from the TV contract that SEC FOOTBALL made available. How much of that went to replacing the folding chairs in the "recruiting room" or to ANY other football improvements, including budgets.
LOL
Argue one of the points I made in that post. Perhaps you just don't understand facts.
And I campaigned against hiring BP here although I think he is a great OC, I am not a win at all costs fan by any means, about as far from it as you can get. How in hell can you compare anything I have said to what that scuzzball would say.
They did at plenty of other SEC schools, and I am pretty sure the city college went through the same times.
Most good business men invest in their money maker.
In a way, he already has but not quite there. Brooks' era peaked at the end of 2006 and the entire 2007 season. This season was like Brooks' 2006 season. Disappointing start, talk of replacing the HC into October and flourishing at the end. However, this team has already had a better season than the 2006 team, although that could change if they lose the bowl game because the MCB win over favored Clemson in 2006 with 50,000 UK fans there gave UK a lot of momentum going into 2007. Like the 2006 team, this team has most of it's players returning. Unlike the 2006 team, this team had a big time upset win over a ranked team. The best road win the 2006 was the MSU game.
UK fans have reason to hope next year can be as good or better than the 2007 season.
UK fans have reason to hope next year can be as good or better than the 2007 season.
Unfortunately, your comment accurately describes many fans. Without doubt, some of the same people now labeling Brooks as our program's savior were screaming for Brooks' scalp in 2005 when Barnhart was supporting him. Many fans were screaming for Stoops' scalp 2 months ago, but now have reservations in Jacksonville later this month. People aren't accountable, change their opinions weekly with W/L. Fortunately, some are different. That's why I come here and read comments.
Absolutely, for two reasons.
1. Our facilities are very nice now, which UK fans keep forgetting. Brooks didn't have that to show recruits.
2. We are getting more talent in football than I've seen in 30 years. We are starting to compete on the field consistently with SEC teams.
Athletic funding for Brooks,
Funding for Stoops.
When you can't even get a recruiting room built, how was Brooks expected to pull in top notch talent?
If he had these facilities when traditional SEC east powers was in turmoil, we wouldn;t be talking about getting 6 wins for a bowl game today.
Funding for Stoops.
When you can't even get a recruiting room built, how was Brooks expected to pull in top notch talent?
If he had these facilities when traditional SEC east powers was in turmoil, we wouldn;t be talking about getting 6 wins for a bowl game today.
Facilities are certainly a factor but signing a class of 2 and low 3 stars right after beating the eventually national champ cannot be totally explained away by chairs, tables, ice tubes and barber shops.
The real issue with Brooks lack of recruiting was he simply didn't have very good recruiters on his staff. Most of them were really good coaches but weak in recruiting. One story I heard was about Petri who I loved as a Dline coach. They sent him to Florida on a recruiting trip and he checked his golf clubs on the plane. These guys just didn't have the desire to put in the long hours and miles that it takes, and like you see our current staff doing.
The real issue with Brooks lack of recruiting was he simply didn't have very good recruiters on his staff. Most of them were really good coaches but weak in recruiting. One story I heard was about Petri who I loved as a Dline coach. They sent him to Florida on a recruiting trip and he checked his golf clubs on the plane. These guys just didn't have the desire to put in the long hours and miles that it takes, and like you see our current staff doing.
He leaned on Joker a great deal for recruiting.
Beyond a low blow, those are fighting words.