CCC and the PG

[rwhitney014]

I was in school there during the Rankin days. Olah and Rankin were pretty equal. Pardon is frequently far better, but has also disappeared or fouled out over his whole career.

Pardon has fouled out 8 times in 101 career games, never more than twice in a season. Olah fouled out 7 times in 122 career games.

I was an Olah fan, too, but Pardon's career rebounds average is 6.9, the same as Olah's best single-season average. Pardon has averaged a full point more, .1 fewer (i.e., equal) blocks, and fewer turnovers. He's also a career 61% shooter from the field, while Olah was around 48%, and the eye test to me at least says Pardon was a more effective defender. (I'd love to see @Styre or someone break down other data out there.)

Olah was a productive and often unfairly maligned player for us, but I'd take Pardon over him without much thought. (And Olah over the other post-Esch choices just as handily.) On the whole, we've had 7 straight years of pretty competent and dependable center play, and unfortunately it's at best a toss-up whether that will continue next season.

 

[NJCat]

On the whole, we've had 7 straight years of pretty competent and dependable center play, and unfortunately it's at best a toss-up whether that will continue next season.

Next season may make us pine for Dan Kreft at Center.

 

[Medill90]

Goode was a forward.

Goode was two inches taller than Pardon and played the 5 for all four years at NU

 

[Catreporter]

Goode was two inches taller than Pardon and played the 5 for all four years at NU

Didn't remember him as a low post player. and yes, he was 6-10.

 

[Styre]

I was an Olah fan, too, but Pardon's career rebounds average is 6.9, the same as Olah's best single-season average. Pardon has averaged a full point more, .1 fewer (i.e., equal) blocks, and fewer turnovers. He's also a career 61% shooter from the field, while Olah was around 48%, and the eye test to me at least says Pardon was a more effective defender.

Yeah, Pardon is pretty clearly the better player. I don't have access to most of the advanced stat sites, but just looking at BPM on sports-reference.com, Pardon and Olah are pretty close defensively (Pardon 5.2 career DBPM, Olah 4.5) but Pardon is way ahead offensively (Pardon 3.6 career OBPM and 5.6 senior year, Olah -0.1 career and 1.8 as a senior).

 

[NJCat]

Goode was two inches taller than Pardon and played the 5 for all four years at NU

Bob Grady and Paul Schultz were Centers on those teams.

 

[DaCat]

Wow, I clicked on this thread for another ***** session and a basketball discussion broke out.

I agree that Pardon ranks up with Esch as one of the all-time best centers for NU. At 6-8, that's an amazing career against some of the best bigs in the nation year-after-year.

 

[Medill90]

Bob Grady and Paul Schultz were Centers on those teams.

Both of whom didn't get the same minutes or start over Andre Goode who played center. Goode came in as a frosh and played around 30 minutes a game, and those minutes increased.

It's true that when Goode was recruited out of Rockford he was labeled a forward. But he was a center. Throughout his NU career he jumped center and played the middle. Schultz was quite a bit smaller than Andre, but very tough. Andre had a nice offensive game, which is where the "forward" came from. He really didn't have the foot speed to defend the 4.

 

[NJCat]

Both of whom didn't get the same minutes or start over Andre Goode who played center. Goode came in as a frosh and played around 30 minutes a game, and those minutes increased..

Bob Grady started all 27 games Andre's Freshman year, averaging 31 minutes/game.

Schultz started all 28 games Goode's Junior year, averaging 31 minutes/game.

Colin Murray started 23 of 28 games Andre's Senior year, averaging 24 minutes.

The only year Andre played primarily the 5 was his Soph season.

 

[IGNORE]

Goode was a forward. Joe Ruklick has to be in the conversation about best centers ever at NU. Pardon has had a great career playing as an UNDERSIZED Big Ten center and no, BMAC did not regress every year. He was instrumental in the NCAA run. We don't beat Wake Forest without him that year to say nothing of Vandy in the NCAA tourney itself. He got INJURED his senior year so yeah it didn't finish the way any of us wanted but how is that CCC's fault?

It’s CCCs fault because he overplayed him.

Mac:
12, 2, 5 33 from 3

15, 3, 5 31 from 3

16, 4, 3 33 from 3

11, 3, 5 37 from 3 freshman

If you just looked at first two thirds of the seasons, I would expect the numbers to be even more exaggerated as Mac wore down each season.

So, if you don’t think he regressed, go have some more Koolaid and let the adults talk.

 

[IGNORE]

Pardon has fouled out 8 times in 101 career games, never more than twice in a season. Olah fouled out 7 times in 122 career games.

I was an Olah fan, too, but Pardon's career rebounds average is 6.9, the same as Olah's best single-season average. Pardon has averaged a full point more, .1 fewer (i.e., equal) blocks, and fewer turnovers. He's also a career 61% shooter from the field, while Olah was around 48%, and the eye test to me at least says Pardon was a more effective defender. (I'd love to see @Styre or someone break down other data out there.)

Olah was a productive and often unfairly maligned player for us, but I'd take Pardon over him without much thought. (And Olah over the other post-Esch choices just as handily.) On the whole, we've had 7 straight years of pretty competent and dependable center play, and unfortunately it's at best a toss-up whether that will continue next season.

I can give you Pardon over Olah. I just think it’s closer than a few hand picked stats. I think Olah was better defensively in a defensively challenged scheme. But in a draft, I would be happy to take either with the second pick and probably prefer Pardon due to mobility and health.

 

[Catreporter]

It’s CCCs fault because he overplayed him.



So, if you don’t think he regressed, go have some more Koolaid and let the adults talk.

Why do you need to demean someone to make your argument? Stats don't always tell the story. I just remember his dominant performance vs. Vandy at the NCAA tourney. I'm not arguing that Collins didn't overuse him but unfortunately he didn't recruit an adequate backup there as we see this year.

 

[IGNORE]

Goode was a forward. Joe Ruklick has to be in the conversation about best centers ever at NU. Pardon has had a great career playing as an UNDERSIZED Big Ten center and no, BMAC did not regress every year. He was instrumental in the NCAA run. We don't beat Wake Forest without him that year to say nothing of Vandy in the NCAA tourney itself. He got INJURED his senior year so yeah it didn't finish the way any of us wanted but how is that CCC's fault?

Why do you need to demean someone to make your argument? Stats don't always tell the story. I just remember his dominant performance vs. Vandy at the NCAA tourney. I'm not arguing that Collins didn't overuse him but unfortunately he didn't recruit an adequate backup there as we see this year.

I felt you were a bit aggressive in stating your opinion. I’m sorry if my aggressive response hurt your feelings. But when the thread turns into a snake pit and you come out aggressively, expect to get bit.

 

[ThatadultfromHolland]

Pardon has fouled out 8 times in 101 career games, never more than twice in a season. Olah fouled out 7 times in 122 career games.

I was an Olah fan, too, but Pardon's career rebounds average is 6.9, the same as Olah's best single-season average. Pardon has averaged a full point more, .1 fewer (i.e., equal) blocks, and fewer turnovers. He's also a career 61% shooter from the field, while Olah was around 48%, and the eye test to me at least says Pardon was a more effective defender. (I'd love to see @Styre or someone break down other data out there.)

Olah was a productive and often unfairly maligned player for us, but I'd take Pardon over him without much thought. (And Olah over the other post-Esch choices just as handily.) On the whole, we've had 7 straight years of pretty competent and dependable center play, and unfortunately it's at best a toss-up whether that will continue next season.

Not data but Olah was a pretty effective zone defender to my eye but was way to slow for man. Pardon is pretty damn good at man and zone. Pardon is quicker, faster, and a quicker jumper. The dudes wingspan helps negate a lot of the "undersized" stuff. The man's core strength is unbelievable.

Offensively Olah and Mac on the pick and roll were utterly beautiful to watch. Pardon on the O glass is unreal. You also don't stop pardons left hand.

 

[eastbaycat99]

I was in school there during the Rankin days. Olah and Rankin were pretty equal. Pardon is frequently far better, but has also disappeared or fouled out over his whole career.

Pardon has mobility and length, but is a little short in the strength department. If you have a Sanjay Lumpkin on the floor with him, his value moves up to second on the list since Ruklick, with Eschmeyer first. Without a complement, he moves down as some physically stronger players will give him a very hard time.
Someone mentioned Goode, and Pardon is comparable in my eye but a little better player over all. Goode did play center on the first NIT team in 82-83, with Stack and Aaron on the front line, Rathell and Jenkins as guards.

 

[hdhntr1]

See the other thread about small recruiting pool. Bottom line is we're competing against 60 power 5 programs and 300 programs overall for a handful of PGs who can help us win in the big ten and can succeed academically at NU. If Indy offers Bmac he probably isn't coming to NU, so nearly everything has to fall right to fill the roster with legit big ten players who are academically qualified and even harder to fit all position needs with depth, compensating for major injuries etc... Stanford has every possible advantage (academics, prestige, athletic success, money, location, weather, powerful athlete alumni network) and has been to NCAA tourney once in 10 years.

If we had not gotten BMac, we had Sobo. And likely we would have gotten another PG in short order because we had the minutes to offer and CCC is a pretty good recruiter.

 

[NJCat]

Pardon has mobility and length, but is a little short in the strength department. If you have a Sanjay Lumpkin on the floor with him, his value moves up to second on the list since Ruklick. Without a complement, he moves down as some physically stronger players will give him a very hard time.
Someone mentioned Goode, and Pardon is comparable in my eye but a little better player over all. Goode did play center on the first NIT team in 82-83, with Stack and Aaron on the front line, Rathell and Jenkins as guards.

They were really different players, but Andre Goode was better as a forward. He had a better outside shot, which is non-existent for Dererk.

 

[hdhntr1]

I don’t think you’ve been paying attention to NU’s QB recruiting lately. After landing Thorson, NU didn’t land a first-tier QB for the next three cycles. They took Lloyd Yates as a project in 2015 and wound up moving him to WR. Then, they got second-tier targets Aidan Smith in 2016 and Andrew Marty in 2017. The fact that walkon TJ Green was the backup last season proves that things didn’t work out as hoped for either of them. NU finally got an A-lister last year when Jason Whittaker committed early.

If Hunter Johnson hadn’t fallen into NU’s lap last year, the QB situation would have been pretty scary going into the 2019 season.

Except you said they had an A lister in the fold that would likely have started this coming year as a RS Frosh

 

[hdhntr1]

I don’t think you’ve been paying attention to NU’s QB recruiting lately. After landing Thorson, NU didn’t land a first-tier QB for the next three cycles. They took Lloyd Yates as a project in 2015 and wound up moving him to WR. Then, they got second-tier targets Aidan Smith in 2016 and Andrew Marty in 2017. The fact that walkon TJ Green was the backup last season proves that things didn’t work out as hoped for either of them. NU finally got an A-lister last year when Jason Whittaker committed early.

If Hunter Johnson hadn’t fallen into NU’s lap last year, the QB situation would have been pretty scary going into the 2019 season.

Nature of having the guy in the role being that solidly #1. CT wasn't going anywhere and there were not going to be a lot of opportunities for his backups. Plus we already had Alviti here as well. Top guys have to see a path to starting.

 

[hdhntr1]

I think you are right and bob is also right... 1 it’s tough, but 2 you gotta find a way to get quality PG and depth into the system otherwise you run into trouble. The Lathon situation sucks, but the overall result is still something CC is accountable for as head coach. Hopefully we can find someone for next year.

How many times have you seen a situation like Lathon? I can count them on 1 finger. If Lathon had been here, there would have been two other guys to pick up the minutes that he was not taking in Ash and Turner. That is a pretty solid situation. I do not recall too many teams having that solid backup PG you suggest CCC is wrong for not having. Again, looking at the big, I doubt you can find more than a couple and I sort of doubt that. It is one thing to have a guy that can take the minutes in a pinch and something far different to have a guy that is a 1A or even 2 that you would want playing 30+mpg that the #1 guy would take on.

 

[hdhntr1]

17-18 — 8.5 man rotation w top 5 of 34, 32, 31, 30 & 28
16-17 — no real defined rotation and top two guys at 37 & 36

So the minutes fallacy may be becoming one, but it was not in the past. Eyes and stats don’t lie. CCC runs his guys til they drop. He needs to develop an 8 man team that he trusts.

Injuries have had a lot to do with that.

 

[hdhntr1]

The point I try to make is that CCC needs to have depth at PG and C. Folks say hard spots to recruit but then say he is a great recruiter.

Well, two problems. First, I can see it hard to recruit young talent when a good player is a soph or junior here, especially when CCC plays that guy 35 mpg leaving little for a recruit to prove himself or develop with. Add the short leash and nearby doghouse and why would any talent want to come. Better to wait until vacant spot and CCC has no options.

This year, Greer has sat and we have sucked. Now he seems to have forced himself into the conversation. CCC has painted himself into a corner w empty schollies and 400 wings. Notice, he can play and develop benson and young as he wishes. If CCC had recruited at G better, he would have more options there too.

Second, by running these guys so hard, they can’t finish games or seasons. We keep seeing in. Mac in his frosh season. This year in end of games.

I’m not ready to run out CCC. But he needs to develop depth, trust the bench more and be willing to play for the future on occasion. And he needs two legit PGs and Cs on the roster every year without fail.

Every team plays that guy 33-35 (or at least almost all) or mpg and none of them really have the depth at that position. Greer was not ready when he got here for more than spot minutes. He is getting there and by next year he can be pretty solid at the position

As far as the guys CCC plays extended minutes... It is still tough to recruit the depth at NU. You can argue that the Frosh are not getting enough minutes. But the fact is that defensively especially they are not ready. They are getting there but it is tough. By next year Kopp looks to be a 25-30 mpg guy. Nance may also be in that range but even so minutes will be somewhat limited for these guys because we have so many alternatives for their positions. Greer might be closer to 30-35 depending on Buie. Look how Gaines has developed.

 

[hdhntr1]

Not data but Olah was a pretty effective zone defender to my eye but was way to slow for man. Pardon is pretty damn good at man and zone. Pardon is quicker, faster, and a quicker jumper. The dudes wingspan helps negate a lot of the "undersized" stuff. The man's core strength is unbelievable.

Offensively Olah and Mac on the pick and roll were utterly beautiful to watch. Pardon on the O glass is unreal. You also don't stop pardons left hand.

Pardon is better inside while Olah had a range that Pardon does not

 

[NUCat320]

Nature of having the guy in the role being that solidly #1. CT wasn't going anywhere and there were not going to be a lot of opportunities for his backups. Plus we already had Alviti here as well. Top guys have to see a path to starting.

Is this true for the point guard position in general, or has it only been true at Northwestern?

I feel like Northwestern has been typically weak at recruiting, which has meant zero competitive depth at PG.

But, say, Winston at MSU, was Rivals’ #29 recruit and only started five games as a freshman behind Tum Tum Nairn, who was Rivals #62 recruit two years prior.

I don’t pretend to know enough about recruiting or to follow college hoops enough, but I feel like “PGs don’t want to join programs that already have a PG” is mostly a cop out.

Just because NU moved from (I’m sure I’ll miss names) TJParker to a year of Jenkins to Juice to Sobo to Mc to nobody doesn’t mean most PG recruits are looking for a four year gig; it just means that NU’s recruits have. (As an example — Mc came in behind a two year, entrenched starter, but still chose NU.)

I would suggest that NU doesn’t have a credible B1G PG this season because NU made a *terrible* projection on Brown (who was a big scorer on a bad high school team, and never showed PG skills), and didn’t develop or simply missed in their evaluation of Ash. If NU had recruited the PG position effectively, Brown would be a junior starter, with Ash the senior behind him. Guys that NU has targeted as PGs have come to NU. They’ve just not been sufficient to fill the role.

 

[IGNORE]

If we had not gotten BMac, we had Sobo. And likely we would have gotten another PG in short order because we had the minutes to offer and CCC is a pretty good recruiter.

Thanks. My argument for why any guard deficiency is CCCs fault.

 

[IGNORE]

How many times have you seen a situation like Lathon? I can count them on 1 finger. If Lathon had been here, there would have been two other guys to pick up the minutes that he was not taking in Ash and Turner. That is a pretty solid situation. I do not recall too many teams having that solid backup PG you suggest CCC is wrong for not having. Again, looking at the big, I doubt you can find more than a couple and I sort of doubt that. It is one thing to have a guy that can take the minutes in a pinch and something far different to have a guy that is a 1A or even 2 that you would want playing 30+mpg that the #1 guy would take on.

Lathom was not B1G ready. So, as gcg would say, no.

 

[hdhntr1]

Lathom was not B1G ready. So, as gcg would say, no.

He was a lot closer to being ready than Greer. Greer was supposed to still be in HS this year. His body was not yet ready and is still not there for extended minutes. Lathon was to be a Frosh so at the beginning of the season, he likely would still be adjusting to the college game but his learning and development curve was likely to be much faster.

 

[hdhntr1]

Is this true for the point guard position in general, or has it only been true at Northwestern?

I feel like Northwestern has been typically weak at recruiting, which has meant zero competitive depth at PG.

But, say, Winston at MSU, was Rivals’ #29 recruit and only started five games as a freshman behind Tum Tum Nairn, who was Rivals #62 recruit two years prior.

I don’t pretend to know enough about recruiting or to follow college hoops enough, but I feel like “PGs don’t want to join programs that already have a PG” is mostly a cop out.

Just because NU moved from (I’m sure I’ll miss names) TJParker to a year of Jenkins to Juice to Sobo to Mc to nobody doesn’t mean most PG recruits are looking for a four year gig; it just means that NU’s recruits have. (As an example — Mc came in behind a two year, entrenched starter, but still chose NU.)

I would suggest that NU doesn’t have a credible B1G PG this season because NU made a *terrible* projection on Brown (who was a big scorer on a bad high school team, and never showed PG skills), and didn’t develop or simply missed in their evaluation of Ash. If NU had recruited the PG position effectively, Brown would be a junior starter, with Ash the senior behind him. Guys that NU has targeted as PGs have come to NU. They’ve just not been sufficient to fill the role.

It is true for most programs. So at MSU, one of the top programs in the country, there was a year of overlap. What about the years before and after? Winston is now a JR so where is the guy that will replace him? Likely still in HS. Most programs have one solid PG and another guy to try to fill in minutes but it is hard to recruit a top notch guy so he can sit on the bench behind the top guy for 2-3 years, probably get recruited over and never get the chance to start. Max they would likely be willing to sit behind someone is one year, still getting a fair amount of minutes, and for the most part, even that is a stretch. You can argue about Brown but he was never a #1 PG guy. So when he was brought in, he was a guy that they saw some promise in and thought they could get him minutes in a couple different roles. As backup PG and as a sparkplug. Backup minutes at PG but likely never as a starting PG to take over after BMac. He just never saw the game from the standpoint of the PG game manager. Ash also filled that role but unfortunately he has been hurt. Likely not someone that would get starter minutes other than in emergency situations such as this year but solid enough as a backup. Unfortunately he is not available.

Basically if you are a top PG candidate, you are not going to go to a program (other than one of the say, top 10 where guys often don't stay for 4 years) if the starter looks solid and to have at 2-3 years of overlap. If that appears to be the case they are just going to chose another program where they get the opportunity to get to the floor sooner. Basically if the guy starts as a Frosh and looks good, a program is going to have a hard time getting another solid PG in for at least two years (and likely 3) which means for at least 3 years you will not have a solid, starting PG type backup. So often the backup is a guy that fills a couple roles. (similar to an Ash, Brown or Turner)

 

[hdhntr1]

Lathom was not B1G ready. So, as gcg would say, no.

He was a heck of a lot more ready than Greer was coming in. Greer was supposed to be in HS one more year while Lathon was ready for the college game. In fact he is averaging over 32 mpg for UTEP. Not saying there would not have been adjustments that would have been needed. But he was in place to make them and by Jan he would have been BIG ready,

 

[NUCat320]

Minnesota:
Starting PG, McBrayer, Sr.
Backup PG, Washington (0 GS , leads in assists), So.

Iowa:
Bohannon, Jr, leads in assists , started every game, 29 mpg
Mccaffrey, fr, #2 in assists, 0 GS, 20 mpg

Nebraska:
Hews closer to your theory - as all starters are at 29 mpg,

Wisconsin:
Current PG Trice played 20mpg as a backup to Koenig as a Fr, and has run with the job since. Tai Strickland, son of Rod, is a year behind him, though playing limited minutes.

Purdue:
Carsen Edwards is a transcendent junior pg who was fourth on the squad in scoring his freshman season, when he started 21 games.
6-3 freshman Eric Hunter, top 150 players, is getting 13mpg behind him, and two guards have committed for 2019.

So, evaluating the only five schools I’ve looked at, Iowa and Minnesota have recruited PG every other year. Purdue and Wisconsin have done something similar. And Nebraska looks different.

Meanwhile, NU tried to follow the Iowa-Minnesota path, and simply failed with Brown, who’ll probably get 15 points on 38 percent shooting at Grand Canyon. This year should’ve been Lathon’s (then Greer’s) to get backup minutes and learn from Brown.

 

[IGNORE]

He was a lot closer to being ready than Greer. Greer was supposed to still be in HS this year. His body was not yet ready and is still not there for extended minutes. Lathon was to be a Frosh so at the beginning of the season, he likely would still be adjusting to the college game but his learning and development curve was likely to be much faster.

UTEP says hello. And that’s against much weaker competition than B1G athletes.

And if you argue his stats would directly translate coming from weak conference then so would Rap. Can’t have it both ways.

 

[NJCat]

UTEP says hello. And that’s against much weaker competition than B1G athletes.

26 points against Marquette?

 

[haywood jahblowme]

I think you are right and bob is also right... 1 it’s tough, but 2 you gotta find a way to get quality PG and depth into the system otherwise you run into trouble. The Lathon situation sucks, but the overall result is still something CC is accountable for as head coach. Hopefully we can find someone for next year.

the problem is timing too. recruit

the CCC minutes fallacy is overblown. its higher but not by much

not unique (didn't count single digits minutes or 10 min)
UM - 7 man rotation - min - 32.8, 32.8, 31.7, 29.5, 27.2, 21.8, 14.8
MSU - 8 man rotation - min - 32.2, 28.6, 28.3, 27.3, 23, 21.5, 18.9, 17.5
Mary - 8 man rotation - min - 33.8, 28.8, 28.5, 26.2, 25.5, 24.5, 13.7, 12.9
PU - 8 man rotation - min - 34. 33.2, 27.5, 24, 19.1, 14.9, 14.4, 13.3, 13.3
NEB - 7 man rotation - min - 33.7, 32.5, 30.7, 30, 28.5, 13.9, 13
minn - 7 man rotaiton - min - 33.4, 31, 30.3, 28.8, 22.3, 20.7, 18.1

etc etc etc

NU - 7 man rotation - min - 32.7, 31.6, 30.7, 30.7, 26.1, 14, 14, (12.6, 12)

for fun - other wildcats minutes
2007-2008 - 9 man rotation - 35, 35, 35, 24, 23, 19, 17 , 13, 13
2008-2009 - 7 man rotation - 34, 35 ,32, 18, 18, 18, 13
2009-2010 - 7 man rotation - 37, 36, 34, 27, 25 , 14, 14
2010-2011 - 7 man rotation - 34, 37, 31.4, 24, 24 23, 14
2011-2012 - 8 man rotation - 37, 34, 35, 26, 20, 20, 19, 19 (and a 14)
2012-2013 - 9 man rotation - (lost swopshire mid conf year) 31, 33, 34, 32, 19, 22, 20, 15, 16

coaches play their best 3 players avg 35 min a game

 

[eastbaycat99]

Pardon is better inside while Olah had a range that Pardon does not

Agreed completely. Also, I think Sanjay Lumpkin was a great complement defensively to each for different reasons. He had quickness to help out Olah and some strength to help out Pardon.

Many have commented since he graduated that Lumpkin added more to the tournament year team than he probably got recognition for during that run.

 

[ricko6543211]

the problem is timing too. recruit



for fun - other wildcats minutes
2007-2008 - 9 man rotation - 35, 35, 35, 24, 23, 19, 17 , 13, 13
2008-2009 - 7 man rotation - 34, 35 ,32, 18, 18, 18, 13
2009-2010 - 7 man rotation - 37, 36, 34, 27, 25 , 14, 14
2010-2011 - 7 man rotation - 34, 37, 31.4, 24, 24 23, 14
2011-2012 - 8 man rotation - 37, 34, 35, 26, 20, 20, 19, 19 (and a 14)
2012-2013 - 9 man rotation - (lost swopshire mid conf year) 31, 33, 34, 32, 19, 22, 20, 15, 16

coaches play their best 3 players avg 35 min a game

Thanks for digging this up. Think it’s fair to say that lack of sufficient depth was a frequent complaint about the Carmody teams, and that plus the Princeton offense struggling to generate shots in pressure situations led to us losing more close games than we’d like.

Perhaps the experience with CC to date suggests that it’s a pretty tough problem to solve. One that many teams have, regardless of coach, rather than being specifically a BC problem...... (haha! Imagine that!)

 

[hdhntr1]

Minnesota:
Starting PG, McBrayer, Sr.
Backup PG, Washington (0 GS , leads in assists), So.

Iowa:
Bohannon, Jr, leads in assists , started every game, 29 mpg
Mccaffrey, fr, #2 in assists, 0 GS, 20 mpg

Nebraska:
Hews closer to your theory - as all starters are at 29 mpg,

Wisconsin:
Current PG Trice played 20mpg as a backup to Koenig as a Fr, and has run with the job since. Tai Strickland, son of Rod, is a year behind him, though playing limited minutes.

Purdue:
Carsen Edwards is a transcendent junior pg who was fourth on the squad in scoring his freshman season, when he started 21 games.
6-3 freshman Eric Hunter, top 150 players, is getting 13mpg behind him, and two guards have committed for 2019.

So, evaluating the only five schools I’ve looked at, Iowa and Minnesota have recruited PG every other year. Purdue and Wisconsin have done something similar. And Nebraska looks different.

Meanwhile, NU tried to follow the Iowa-Minnesota path, and simply failed with Brown, who’ll probably get 15 points on 38 percent shooting at Grand Canyon. This year should’ve been Lathon’s (then Greer’s) to get backup minutes and learn from Brown.

Since Edwards of Purdue is getting 34.5 mpg as the lead PG, hard to say that Hunters minutes are for PG

You are pointing out IA with Bohannon starting and McCaffrey but isn't he the coaches son? Il has the coaches son on the roster as well.

Look at MSU where Winston is getting 33 mpg, Mich where Simpson is getting 33 mpg, MD where Cowen is getting 34, Rutgrs where baker is getting over 34 PSU where Reeves is getting 33

The fact is that with most programs, the starting PG is averaging at least 32 mpg or more. That does not exactly leave a lot of minutes for any backup unless they get those minutes in some other role.

 

[NUCat320]

@hdhntr1 your theory - that programs only get one PG at a time - is wrong. The roster makeup of several peer institutions proves as such.

NU has no B1G worthy PG this year because, as @IGNORE opined , NU has royally botched its recruiting of the position.

 

[hdhntr1]

UTEP says hello. And that’s against much weaker competition than B1G athletes.

And if you argue his stats would directly translate coming from weak conference then so would Rap. Can’t have it both ways.

I am not arguing stats at all. Just where he would be in our program and that would be as starting PG. If he had still been in the system, he would have been under the guidance of our S&C and the like prior and after getting here and had a top LG mentor to be guided by. He would have had assigned roles and the like. By Jan. he would likely have been getting at least 25-30 mpg if not more for us. With the complementary contributions from Turner (and Ash had he not been injured) we would have been in very solid shape. His messing up meant that Turner takes the majority of PG type minutes for us (a role he was never meant to have as his role was supposed to be primarily at the 2 while providing backup PG minutes) . Greer is likely the best PG talent we have on the roster, he is simple not ready for more than spot minutes yet as he is not physically ready(as he was supposed to still be in HS) and is finally up to 5-10 mpg. Not sure if we would have gotten him next year if Lathon had been here but my guess is we would not for the same reason that a top PG doesn't come to a program to sit behind a guy for extended period.

 

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26 points against Marquette?

And the rest of the season? Should I pull out the stats from a game that he underwhelmed against a blah school?

 

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Thanks for digging this up. Think it’s fair to say that lack of sufficient depth was a frequent complaint about the Carmody teams, and that plus the Princeton offense struggling to generate shots in pressure situations led to us losing more close games than we’d like.

Perhaps the experience with CC to date suggests that it’s a pretty tough problem to solve. One that many teams have, regardless of coach, rather than being specifically a BC problem...... (haha! Imagine that!)

Thing is - we have heralded talent on the bench with a short leash. Play them - play the younger guys for more minutes. They are supposed to be good, they need the development time and it gives the starters a chance to recover and finish games and seasons.