CCC and the PG

[NJCat]

And the rest of the season? Should I pull out the stats from a game that he underwhelmed against a blah school?

Which NU Freshman has scored 26 against a major conference opponent?

Lathon would have been fine this year at NU. I only watched him play against Marquette, he looked the part. I have no clue how he has played against blah competition, but from the one game I saw the rest of his team is nothing to get excited about. UTEP has an average experience of 0.8 years according to minutes played (Sports Reference Avg. Height: 6-4
Avg. Years Exp: 0.8 Averages are weighted by minutes played https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/texas-el-paso/2019.html) so it wouldn't surprise me that he and the rest of the team are struggling.

 

[ricko6543211]

Which NU Freshman has scored 26 against a major conference opponent?

Lathon would have been fine this year at NU. I only watched him play against Marquette, he looked the part. I have no clue how he has played against blah competition, but from the one game I saw the rest of his team is nothing to get excited about. UTEP has an average experience of 0.8 years according to minutes played (Sports Reference Avg. Height: 6-4
Avg. Years Exp: 0.8 Averages are weighted by minutes played https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/texas-el-paso/2019.html) so it wouldn't surprise me that he and the rest of the team are struggling.

Also, I still don't really know what happened with him and NU, but I think it's reasonable to believe that he might have been in a different mindset if that hadn't all gone awry. I would imagine it's not a 1 for 1 situation comparing how things have gone in his freshman year at UTEP vs how it would have gone coming into NU as a freshman without whatever personal issues and stress arose as he dealt with that mysterious situation.

 

[hdhntr1]

@hdhntr1 your theory - that programs only get one PG at a time - is wrong. The roster makeup of several peer institutions proves as such.

NU has no B1G worthy PG this year because, as @IGNORE opined , NU has royally botched its recruiting of the position.

In general, you are unlikely to be able to recruit a top PG into the system until at least the starter's next to last year of playing. Meaning they would not be in the system until the starter's last year of playing. And for a top guy even that is pretty much of a stretch for most Any earlier and the kid is sitting on the bench for two years and a top guy is not going to accept that. It is hard for a real top guy to even basically sit even one year. You might be able to get a guy that fits dual roles and is able to get on the floor in other ways and that was the attempt (that failed) with Brown as he never embraced the PG aspects of the position. Had he we would not be having this conversation, At that stage in BMacs career, that is what you generally have to do for the backup role. Otherwise CCC and company did a good job getting Lathon for this year. That he did something stupid is not something that CCC and company could have foretold.. He would have been BIG ready and while Greer will likely be ready next year, this year he is not.

Getting Lathon prevented us from getting another PG at the time. That he did something stupid is not something that CCC can be held accountable for. He had not royally botched PG recruiting, Minorly botched in that Brown did not adapt to the backup PG part of his role, OK but that is more minor than major

 

[IGNORE]

Which NU Freshman has scored 26 against a major conference opponent?

Lathon would have been fine this year at NU. I only watched him play against Marquette, he looked the part. I have no clue how he has played against blah competition, but from the one game I saw the rest of his team is nothing to get excited about. UTEP has an average experience of 0.8 years according to minutes played (Sports Reference Avg. Height: 6-4
Avg. Years Exp: 0.8 Averages are weighted by minutes played https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/texas-el-paso/2019.html) so it wouldn't surprise me that he and the rest of the team are struggling.

If he was here, either he would be yanked by the notorious short leash of CCC for frosh or CCC would lose Nance and Kopp for treating Lathom better. I’m gonna guess the former.

But we will never know. Just have to believe he was the lost savior.

 

[NJCat]

If he was here, either he would be yanked by the notorious short leash of CCC for frosh or CCC would lose Nance and Kopp for treating Lathom better. .

The kid's name is Lathon...........and you're right, we'll never know.

 

[IGNORE]

In general, you are unlikely to be able to recruit a top PG into the system until at least the starter's next to last year of playing. Meaning they would not be in the system until the starter's last year of playing. And for a top guy even that is pretty much of a stretch for most Any earlier and the kid is sitting on the bench for two years and a top guy is not going to accept that. It is hard for a real top guy to even basically sit even one year. You might be able to get a guy that fits dual roles and is able to get on the floor in other ways and that was the attempt (that failed) with Brown as he never embraced the PG aspects of the position. Had he we would not be having this conversation, At that stage in BMacs career, that is what you generally have to do for the backup role. Otherwise CCC and company did a good job getting Lathon for this year. That he did something stupid is not something that CCC and company could have foretold.. He would have been BIG ready and while Greer will likely be ready next year, this year he is not.

Getting Lathon prevented us from getting another PG at the time. That he did something stupid is not something that CCC can be held accountable for. He had not royally botched PG recruiting, Minorly botched in that Brown did not adapt to the backup PG part of his role, OK but that is more minor than major

Most systems play two guards. Some even play three. CCC dumped the PG label in favor of LG. If CCC cannot get two talented guards on the roster at the same time, then he is not a very good recruiter.

 

[hdhntr1]

Most systems play two guards. Some even play three. CCC dumped the PG label in favor of LG. If CCC cannot get two talented guards on the roster at the same time, then he is not a very good recruiter.

Every guard is not a PG or LG nor totally interchangable. Most are more shooting guards. Gaines is a guard as is Turner and even Taylor. Throw in Greer and Ash as well. There are at least two guards on the the floor at any time. The issue is that we are trying to cover the PG or LG position. Turner would be an adequate backup to that position but he is not a true PG. Had Lathon come it would have been no problem. But he didn't and we ended up getting Greer as a LG recruit instead. While Greer will be good, he is just not ready yet. CCC's overall recruiting has been very good. With Lathon in the fold, all the bases were covered. That he did something that led to the pulling of his scholarship is something that could not be foreseen and cannot be blamed on CCC as he was not yet under CCC's control. That CCC was able to pick up Greer at the last minute, a solid guy that will pay big dividends in the future even though he is not ready this year is a testament to his recruiting prowess. If you chose not to see that, I don't know what to say.

 

[DaCat]

Most systems play two guards. Some even play three. CCC dumped the PG label in favor of LG. If CCC cannot get two talented guards on the roster at the same time, then he is not a very good recruiter.

Wrong.

Collins had stated many times he typically uses a one LG, three wings, and one big lineup.

 

[IGNORE]

Wrong.

Collins had stated many times he typically uses a one LG, three wings, and one big lineup.

Not wrong, I said most systems, not CCCs system. It was in context to getting more than one talented guard on the roster at the same time.

Btw, if hdhtr is correct, then CCC plays two and three guard lineups all the time. Hdhtr says turner, Taylor and Gaines are all guards.

 

[MTobin_rivals79497]

Since Edwards of Purdue is getting 34.5 mpg as the lead PG, hard to say that Hunters minutes are for PG

You are pointing out IA with Bohannon starting and McCaffrey but isn't he the coaches son? Il has the coaches son on the roster as well.

Look at MSU where Winston is getting 33 mpg, Mich where Simpson is getting 33 mpg, MD where Cowen is getting 34, Rutgrs where baker is getting over 34 PSU where Reeves is getting 33

The fact is that with most programs, the starting PG is averaging at least 32 mpg or more. That does not exactly leave a lot of minutes for any backup unless they get those minutes in some other role.

For the record, while he is taking on more of a facilitator role, Carsen Edward's is still not Purdue's point guard and never has been. Nojel Eastern is the point, with Hunter backing him up. The two of them together average 40 minutes. The truth is Purdue has no true point, but it doesn't really matter all that much in their offense.

Neither of the incoming guards is a true point, either, although Isaiah Thompson (P.J.'s bro) will spend time in that role. They are trying to recruit a true point in the '20 class.

 

[mikewebb68]

Also, I still don't really know what happened with him and NU, but I think it's reasonable to believe that he might have been in a different mindset if that hadn't all gone awry. I would imagine it's not a 1 for 1 situation comparing how things have gone in his freshman year at UTEP vs how it would have gone coming into NU as a freshman without whatever personal issues and stress arose as he dealt with that mysterious situation.

This is an excellent point UTEP is basketball purgatory for Lathon at this point.

 

[NJCat]

This is an excellent point UTEP is basketball purgatory for Lathon at this point.

More like basketball Siberia. But he can get a job designing the Wall when he graduates.

 

[IGNORE]

More like basketball Siberia. But he can get a job designing the Wall when he graduates.

Bet he transfers somewhere better before he is done.

 

[haywood jahblowme]

Thanks for digging this up. Think it’s fair to say that lack of sufficient depth was a frequent complaint about the Carmody teams, and that plus the Princeton offense struggling to generate shots in pressure situations led to us losing more close games than we’d like.

Perhaps the experience with CC to date suggests that it’s a pretty tough problem to solve. One that many teams have, regardless of coach, rather than being specifically a BC problem...... (haha! Imagine that!)

2/5/19 - B1G game minutes

MSU - 37, 37, 34, 31, 23, 20, 14 - 7 man rotation
ILL - 33, 32, 30, 25, 23, 19, 19 - 7 man rotation (8th guy had 11 min)



UM - 38, 36, 36, 33, 33, 12 - 6 man rotation basically ( 2 other guys total playes - 6 and 5 min ea)
RUT - 34, 34, 32, 21, 20, 16, 16, 14 - 8 man rotation

 

[haywood jahblowme]

Thing is - we have heralded talent on the bench with a short leash. Play them - play the younger guys for more minutes. They are supposed to be good, they need the development time and it gives the starters a chance to recover and finish games and seasons.

we will see next year when major minutes are given to 4 sophs and 3 freshmen how excited the people are for a young team

 

[IGNORE]

2/5/19 - B1G game minutes

MSU - 37, 37, 34, 31, 23, 20, 14 - 7 man rotation
ILL - 33, 32, 30, 25, 23, 19, 19 - 7 man rotation (8th guy had 11 min)



UM - 38, 36, 36, 33, 33, 12 - 6 man rotation basically ( 2 other guys total playes - 6 and 5 min ea)
RUT - 34, 34, 32, 21, 20, 16, 16, 14 - 8 man rotation

Overtime

 

[IGNORE]

we will see next year when major minutes are given to 4 sophs and 3 freshmen how excited the people are for a young team

Might have been more excited if those guys had cut their teeth this year.

 

[IGNORE]

we will see next year when major minutes are given to 4 sophs and 3 freshmen how excited the people are for a young team

And remind me why that will be the case. Or don’t. We already know ad nausea

 

[haywood jahblowme]

And remind me why that will be the case. Or don’t. We already know ad nausea

neither of the games above went to overtime

the whole board will be bitching the same way when bmac and scottie were frosh and soph and making young mistakes and not physically developed the way older players are

 

[Medill90]

we will see next year when major minutes are given to 4 sophs and 3 freshmen how excited the people are for a young team

I love this current team. I love all NU bball teams. But this team is an aberration. The gap at guard is unsettling. Time is wasted bringing the ball up and there is no one on the court with the ability to break someone down off the dribble.

When was the last time we saw a wing back door cut to the basket and receive a bounce pass from the lead guard? It doesn't happen.

America knows that an attempt will be made to get the ball to Pardon, who is excellent, and if he receives it there's a plus 50% chance he's going to shoot.....so you overplay his left....but he's excellent so he'll convert 55% of the time. Otherwise, it gets moved around the perimeter with modest movement....not a lot of movement toward the basket and through the paint....nothing easy....and rarely does the movement break down the defense cuz they sag far side from the ball just a bit. So the non Pardon offense results in a three point shot and this year the three point shooters are not converting.

While I fear the loss of Pardon in the middle, I'll take a rotation that is heavy minutes for AJ, Kopp, Gaines, Nance and Falzon with a PG who can break people down off the dribble and pass for conversions. If Ash and Benson can contribute some senior leadership and contribute, I'm ok watching the young guys get better.

I really don't have a ***** with any NU player. I cringe at the player criticisms I read here. I also have issues with the over the top criticism of Collins which IMO lacks standing. The offense is broken and can't be fixed with the guys on the roster. The defense is decent and has played some of the best teams in the country to a standstill. So, yeah, happy to watch it develop for a few more years.

The issue, as I see it, is the same as always....academics/admissions. If it was five card stud NU is getting dealt two cards while the other Big Ten teams get all five....and they get to pick through the deck and choose their fifth card after looking at the other four. The entirety of what is going on this year can be attributed to that. As is always the case for NU mens bball.

 

[NUCat320]

I also have issues with the over the top criticism of Collins which IMO lacks standing. The offense is broken and can't be fixed with the guys on the roster.

There’s some cognitive dissonance in these consecutive sentences.

I love this team and I love all NU teams really lands with me tho.

 

[7th Cir. Cat]

There’s some cognitive dissonance in these consecutive sentences.

I see your point, but what I think Medill is getting at is that CC is not to blame for Lathon's transgressions. If Lathon had not screwed up, then the roster wouldn't be broken. I mean, even if Lathon had screwed up but it was earlier in the recruitment process, we still might have had a chance to land a solid PG.

 

[IGNORE]

neither of the games above went to overtime

the whole board will be bitching the same way when bmac and scottie were frosh and soph and making young mistakes and not physically developed the way older players are

The ILL MSU game did go to overtime.

 

[NJCat]

The ILL MSU game did go to overtime.

Uh, no it didn't.

 

[CappyNU]

The ILL MSU game did go to overtime.

No it didn't, the IU-MSU game did.

 

[willycat]

Bet he transfers somewhere better before he is done.

Maybe but if only a program like UTEP offered, then why do you think some powerhouse school will change it's mind regarding his previous indiscretion?

 

[IGNORE]

No it didn't, the IU-MSU game did.

oops - my bad. wrong I school...

 

[IGNORE]

Maybe but if only a program like UTEP offered, then why do you think some powerhouse school will change it's mind regarding his previous indiscretion?

Because nothing has come out - no public charges. You cannot punish a guy for life for something that he didn't get a chance to defend nor has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

My guess two years at UTEP with a clean record and he will be moving back into the upper echelon of basketball - but not at NU. Admittedly, a guess, who knows.

 

[willycat]

Because nothing has come out - no public charges. You cannot punish a guy for life for something that he didn't get a chance to defend nor has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

My guess two years at UTEP with a clean record and he will be moving back into the upper echelon of basketball - but not at NU. Admittedly, a guess, who knows.

If so, then why not NU?

 

[IGNORE]

If so, then why not NU?

We bailed on him. If he has options, and I think he will have options, then why go to the school that did not stand by you.

I have no idea what happened - but I know nothing has been published meaning no crimes. He was not disqualified by the NCAA.

And there are lots of P5 schools out there. If his numbers improve next year, then I would expect him to have plenty of options - as NCAAs are for guards and everybody can always use another one with talent. Heck, maybe he returns to don orange. That would really suck - first lose on and have to face Ayo for a couple of years, then have to defend Lathon for a couple more.

 

[hdhntr1]

If he was here, either he would be yanked by the notorious short leash of CCC for frosh or CCC would lose Nance and Kopp for treating Lathom better. I’m gonna guess the former.

But we will never know. Just have to believe he was the lost savior.

More likely he would have been closer to giving him the reigns similar to BMac. At the other positions we have viable options but at the LG/PG we do not

 

[hdhntr1]

There’s some cognitive dissonance in these consecutive sentences.

I love this team and I love all NU teams really lands with me tho.

He is likely commenting on the chastising of CCC for what Lathon did which is misguided

 

[hdhntr1]

Most systems play two guards. Some even play three. CCC dumped the PG label in favor of LG. If CCC cannot get two talented guards on the roster at the same time, then he is not a very good recruiter.

There are different kinds of guards. One and generally only one is the PG or LG. THe others tend to be more 2s AKA shooting guards. Turner and Gaines are guards and if they are on the floor together, you have two guards. If either is on the floor with Greer again 2 guards. Taylor is also a 2/3 so he is more or less a guard so you are playing 2-3 guards at all times. The issue is that other than Greer, none is really a PG. They are all 2s and just do not see the floor the same way as a PG would.

Want an example? The Bulls had MJ. MJ was a guard but not a PG. BJ Armstrong was a PG. Pippen played the point some as a PF. When MJ was on the floor with BJ they had two guards but only BJ was a PG.

 

[NUCat320]

I see your point, but what I think Medill is getting at is that CC is not to blame for Lathon's transgressions. If Lathon had not screwed up, then the roster wouldn't be broken. I mean, even if Lathon had screwed up but it was earlier in the recruitment process, we still might have had a chance to land a solid PG.

I get it, but it’s not like it happened on the eve of the season. There were four full months to figure it out. The team has no plan on offense, *and* they don’t seem to be particularly engaged.

 

[hdhntr1]

I see your point, but what I think Medill is getting at is that CC is not to blame for Lathon's transgressions. If Lathon had not screwed up, then the roster wouldn't be broken. I mean, even if Lathon had screwed up but it was earlier in the recruitment process, we still might have had a chance to land a solid PG.

We did land a solid PG. It was actually a masterful bit of last second recruiting for a spot of dire need. The issue is that as good as many here think he will become, he would still be in HS and is not ready at this level. Next year he will be far more ready. And other guards that can handle the point are likely to be here as well. And if they do arrive and CCC continues recruiting well it will be likely that the lack of PG and backup will likely be taken care of for the next few years provided we don't get injures to the position.

 

[hdhntr1]

Maybe but if only a program like UTEP offered, then why do you think some powerhouse school will change it's mind regarding his previous indiscretion?

Since none of us know what it is, pretty hard to answer. If he proves himself at UTEP, others might want him enough to deal with whatever it is but he might still have to sit out a year if he tries to transfer before he graduates.

 

[hdhntr1]

We bailed on him. If he has options, and I think he will have options, then why go to the school that did not stand by you.

I have no idea what happened - but I know nothing has been published meaning no crimes. He was not disqualified by the NCAA.

And there are lots of P5 schools out there. If his numbers improve next year, then I would expect him to have plenty of options - as NCAAs are for guards and everybody can always use another one with talent. Heck, maybe he returns to don orange. That would really suck - first lose on and have to face Ayo for a couple of years, then have to defend Lathon for a couple more.

Wouldn't he have to sit for a year?

 

[hdhntr1]

I get it, but it’s not like it happened on the eve of the season. There were four full months to figure it out. The team has no plan on offense, *and* they don’t seem to be particularly engaged.

It pretty much was after all the top targets that we had a shot at had their destinations picked so it might as well have been on the eve of the season. That CCC was able to get a guy out of next years class to reclassify helps but his not being ready means that help is limited till next year

 

[IGNORE]

There are different kinds of guards. One and generally only one is the PG or LG. THe others tend to be more 2s AKA shooting guards. Turner and Gaines are guards and if they are on the floor together, you have two guards. If either is on the floor with Greer again 2 guards. Taylor is also a 2/3 so he is more or less a guard so you are playing 2-3 guards at all times. The issue is that other than Greer, none is really a PG. They are all 2s and just do not see the floor the same way as a PG would.

Want an example? The Bulls had MJ. MJ was a guard but not a PG. BJ Armstrong was a PG. Pippen played the point some as a PF. When MJ was on the floor with BJ they had two guards but only BJ was a PG.

If CCC can’t recruit at least two talented guards onto the same roster, then he is not the super recruiter.

 

[IGNORE]

Wouldn't he have to sit for a year?

Sure. No biggie. Lots of players do it.