CCL Division Imbalance and Player Safety Concern

[Cat Box]

The current four-division structure of the CCL is illogical and needs to be changed next season. The enrollment and talent imbalance is dangerous for the athletes. Below is a division list with enrollment rankings within each division.

CCL Blue

Loyola (3486)
Brother Rice (2637)
Mt. Carmel (2161)
St. Rita (1993)
Providence (1709)

CCL Green
Fenwick (1944)
Marmion (1742)
De LaSalle (1533)
St. Francis (1290)
Montini (1086)

CCL White
St. Lawrence (1597)
St. Ignatius (1387)
Bishop McNamara (520)
Aurora Christian (420)

CCL Red

DePaul Prep (509)
St. Joseph (382)
Leo (380)

There is a very obvious enrollment division between Ignatius (1387) and McNamara (520). Schools with sub-500 enrollment should not be playing schools with 1500+ kids, which is essentially a Class 3A to Class 6A or greater jump. I believe the IHSA should act on behalf of player safety to eliminate contests with more than a 2-Class difference. Class 3A can play 4A and 5A schools. But a 3A should never be put in a situation where they have to play up into Class 6A, 7A and 8A.

This year Leo (380) is playing Loyola (3486). That is a recipe for disaster. Aurora Christian (420) is playing BR (2637). Let me put that in perspective. Actual (non-multiplied) enrollment at AC this year will be about 250 which means about 125 boys eligible to play football. AC will have about 45 boys total playing football frosh thru seniors. The varsity squad will have 25-30 players on it. Three or four of those athletes will play both ways all game. If you lose any of these guys, it’s like losing two starters. It eventually gets to a point where you are forced to march freshmen onto the Varsity field to get through your season. Does anyone think this is healthy?

Move Fenwick up to Blue for a total of 6 teams. Enrollment range of 3486 to 1944.

Move Larry and Iggy up to Green for a total of 6 teams. Enrollment range of 1742 to 1387.

Let Blue and Green schedule each other for one “cross-over” game each year so long as there is no more than a 2-Class differential. In other words, 5A Iggy won’t be playing 8A Loyola.

Don't like 6-team divisions on the Blue and Green? Thin out the 10-team ESCC and bring two teams over to the Blue and Green to make them 7 teams each and an 8-team ESCC.

Moving Larry and Iggy up leaves 5 teams in a small division with enrollment range of 520 to 380. All are Class 3A schools. No crossing over to Green or Blue. They can find Class 5A and lower schools for non-conference games or invite schools like St. Edwards (635), Aurora Central (627), Wheaton Academy (660), Immaculate Conception (495) etc. to join the CCL in the small division.

Better yet, if the CCL could convince all six (6) schools which left for the Metro Suburban Red/Blue, the CCL would be able to have a legitimate 4 division conference. This would leave the Metro Suburban with six public schools instead of two divisions with 12 schools. The trick is making a guarantee that schools like Guerin Prep (403), Chicago Christian (350) and others will not have to play cross-over games into the Green and Blue. Bringing over those 6 Metro Suburban schools plus the 4 remaining CCL White/Red schools would make for a nice 5+5 double division with cross-over games against each other while preserving the safety of athletes which should be the #1 mission of the IHSA and the CCL.

 

[mc140]

No one wants to play in the Blue. They will leave before having that forced on them. Enrollment also means little. It is about who puts money into football and who does not.

 

[JCHillmen]

CCL will always have this parity issue with the wide ranges in competitiveness. Enrollments are only a small part of that equation. And as long as there is a Blue, that is how it will be. Nobody wants to play in that gauntlet. IMO, they really messed up when the SCC schools came looking for a home. If they were going to give those four schools a safe harbor, it should have been with the condition that one of the four (most likely Montini) would have to fill out the Blue. I'm sure Montini wouldn't have liked it, but it beats playing as an independent and it could have really minimized those crossover mismatches by having a Blue of 6 teams.

As it is, I think having to suck it up for one whooping is a small price to pay for finding a conference home. AC is in a division with similarly competitive teams and can get a crossover or two up to get tested/beaten down and a crossover or two down to crush one of the tiny schools. Overall, that's how most HS schedules are set up statewide. A few you should win easily, a few you may have little shot at winning, and hopefully the majority where it should be competitive.

 

[illini14]

The current four-division structure of the CCL is illogical and needs to be changed next season. The enrollment and talent imbalance is dangerous for the athletes. Below is a division list with enrollment rankings within each division.

CCL Blue

Loyola (3486)
Brother Rice (2637)
Mt. Carmel (2161)
St. Rita (1993)
Providence (1709)

CCL Green
Fenwick (1944)
Marmion (1742)
De LaSalle (1533)
St. Francis (1290)
Montini (1086)

CCL White
St. Lawrence (1597)
St. Ignatius (1387)
Bishop McNamara (520)
Aurora Christian (420)

CCL Red

DePaul Prep (509)
St. Joseph (382)
Leo (380)

There is a very obvious enrollment division between Ignatius (1387) and McNamara (520). Schools with sub-500 enrollment should not be playing schools with 1500+ kids, which is essentially a Class 3A to Class 6A or greater jump. I believe the IHSA should act on behalf of player safety to eliminate contests with more than a 2-Class difference. Class 3A can play 4A and 5A schools. But a 3A should never be put in a situation where they have to play up into Class 6A, 7A and 8A.

This year Leo (380) is playing Loyola (3486). That is a recipe for disaster. Aurora Christian (420) is playing BR (2637). Let me put that in perspective. Actual (non-multiplied) enrollment at AC this year will be about 250 which means about 125 boys eligible to play football. AC will have about 45 boys total playing football frosh thru seniors. The varsity squad will have 25-30 players on it. Three or four of those athletes will play both ways all game. If you lose any of these guys, it’s like losing two starters. It eventually gets to a point where you are forced to march freshmen onto the Varsity field to get through your season. Does anyone think this is healthy?

Move Fenwick up to Blue for a total of 6 teams. Enrollment range of 3486 to 1944.

Move Larry and Iggy up to Green for a total of 6 teams. Enrollment range of 1742 to 1387.

Let Blue and Green schedule each other for one “cross-over” game each year so long as there is no more than a 2-Class differential. In other words, 5A Iggy won’t be playing 8A Loyola.

Don't like 6-team divisions on the Blue and Green? Thin out the 10-team ESCC and bring two teams over to the Blue and Green to make them 7 teams each and an 8-team ESCC.

Moving Larry and Iggy up leaves 5 teams in a small division with enrollment range of 520 to 380. All are Class 3A schools. No crossing over to Green or Blue. They can find Class 5A and lower schools for non-conference games or invite schools like St. Edwards (635), Aurora Central (627), Wheaton Academy (660), Immaculate Conception (495) etc. to join the CCL in the small division.

Better yet, if the CCL could convince all six (6) schools which left for the Metro Suburban Red/Blue, the CCL would be able to have a legitimate 4 division conference. This would leave the Metro Suburban with six public schools instead of two divisions with 12 schools. The trick is making a guarantee that schools like Guerin Prep (403), Chicago Christian (350) and others will not have to play cross-over games into the Green and Blue. Bringing over those 6 Metro Suburban schools plus the 4 remaining CCL White/Red schools would make for a nice 5+5 double division with cross-over games against each other while preserving the safety of athletes which should be the #1 mission of the IHSA and the CCL.

Bishop Mac and AC are fine. Pretty sure both of those school recruit well enough to play in the White against those schools. Didn't Mac win state last year and AC is Beebe U...

 

[Wild_Mustang]

The enrollment and talent imbalance is dangerous for the athletes.

Adapt and overcome.

I have an idea...let's change everything so we can all hold hands and win together.

 

[Bwm57]

Yes, it's hard to imagine the crushing defeat Chicago Phillips would suffer at the hands of Cicero Morton...

 

[Cat Box]

Adapt and overcome.

I have an idea...let's change everything so we can all hold hands and win together.

"Adapt and overcome..."?

I present safety concerns of student-athletes and this is your answer? What does that mean? How does "adapt and overcome" improve the safety of student-athletes?

 

[caravan8]

"Adapt and overcome..."?

I present safety concerns of student-athletes and this is your answer? What does that mean? How does "adapt and overcome" improve the safety of student-athletes?

I understand what you are saying, but enrollment is just one facet of these schools. Bishop Mac, while smaller than SICP, is a better football team pretty much year in and year out. Mac puts time and effort and $ into football, while SICP does not focus as much on football success. While I believe the coach over at SICP is doing some great things, I also believe the school won't ever fully commit to being a top line football program.

As has been stated, no one wants to run the gauntlet of the Blue, except the teams already in the Blue. If you force teams in, they will leave and your conference loses out. I believe that the CCL has done an ok job of focusing on safety, no matter what the school size is, every kid that plays is at risk of injury just by stepping out on the field.

 

[Wassup13_rivals219252]

Put St. Petronelle's (ie Glenbard West) in the Blue and the Blue conference is solved.

Move SHG to the Green.

Only one crossover game for Blue/Green. Continue two non-con games.

Move IC and Aurora Cent Catholic to the White. Not sure where to move Iggy and Larry??

Wassup

 

[Cat Box]

I understand what you are saying, but enrollment is just one facet of these schools. Bishop Mac, while smaller than SICP, is a better football team pretty much year in and year out. Mac puts time and effort and $ into football, while SICP does not focus as much on football success. While I believe the coach over at SICP is doing some great things, I also believe the school won't ever fully commit to being a top line football program.

As has been stated, no one wants to run the gauntlet of the Blue, except the teams already in the Blue. If you force teams in, they will leave and your conference loses out. I believe that the CCL has done an ok job of focusing on safety, no matter what the school size is, every kid that plays is at risk of injury just by stepping out on the field.

Caravan - you are partially correct on this one point. Indeed, enrollment is only one factor. However, it is the most objective and measurable factor. This is why every state has a class system based primarily on enrollment. The rest of your statements, however, are embarrassing.

You speak of schools investing "time, effort and $ into football". Are you suggesting the IHSA should measure time, effort and $ to develop an equation to help classify football programs? What a brilliant idea! Perhaps they can penalize smaller schools with large commitments to football by bumping them up in class. Conversely, larger schools with small commitments to football can be rewarded by bumping them down in class. You're really on to something, Caravan!

Of course you are creating false arguments to ignore the problem I have clearly laid before you. Your false argument is B-Mac (520) vs. Iggy (1387) is fair because the smaller school makes a bigger investment in football. That was never my argument, was it, Caravan. I'm OK with a 3A vs. 5A matchup. My argument continues to be the imbalance (of enrollment and divisions) which leads to player safety concerns. I specifically cited Brother Rice (2637) playing Aurora Christian (420). You are more comfortable with AC playing a school with 6x the enrollment more than balancing out the divisions? You would rather a 3A school play an 8A school instead of limiting competition not to exceed 2 Class levels?

Then you say, "no one wants to run the gauntlet of the Blue". Since when did a school's "wants" come into play? Should we be managing high school football based upon emotion? Or should we endeavor to create objective standards to manage player safety and insure fair competition?

More brilliant nuggets from Caravan include..."if you force teams in (to the Blue division), they will leave and your conference loses out". You mean like the ESCC? They have a 10-team conference. It works because they don't have 3A schools playing 8A schools. You mean like the DVC? They have a 9-team conference and it works because they don't have 3A schools playing 8A schools. So if you "force" Fenwick to play up in the Blue, they are going to leave? Where are they going to go, Caravan? Will Friar ask to move into the ESCC? Or maybe they will join IC and Aurora Central over in the Western Suburban?

Final nugget of brilliance from Caravan... "I believe that the CCL has done an ok job of focusing on safety". I don't even know how to respond to this steaming pile of non-sense. Perhaps you think the CCL is keeping 8A athletes safe by insuring they get to play a couple 3A schools each season.

 

[HHSTigerFan]

Maybe schools like Mac and AC shouldn't be d-bags and they wouldn't be forced into playing in this conference??? Just a thought... Both those schools have reputations of brining kids in a questionable way and of being arrogant as they win with such kids..

 

[Cat Box]

Maybe schools like Mac and AC shouldn't be d-bags and they wouldn't be forced into playing in this conference??? Just a thought... Both those schools have reputations of brining kids in a questionable way and of being arrogant as they win with such kids..

Dude...
Really?

In what way was AC forced into the CCL? Perhaps you don't know what happened with the Suburban Christian Conference. Let me educate you. The SCC was a 12-team, 2-division conference. Seven of the twelve schools conspired to leave the Conference and by so doing, left the remaining five teams to fend for themselves. Who's the d-bag? The 7 schools that bailed or the 5 schools that stayed?

The CCL made room for Marmion, Montini and St. Francis by creating the CCL Green division. Aurora Christian, being a smaller school, made a home in the White division. Marian Central elected to move into the ESCC.

The 7 schools who bailed out on the SCC joined 5 teams from the Metro Suburban to create a 12-team, 2-division conference. The SCC was not perfect. There were mis-match flaws there, also. Despite the mis-matches, the SCC was comprised of 3A-5A schools (with the exception of 6A Marmion). At least there were no 3A vs. 7/8A contests as there are in the CCL.

Your statement about "questionable way" and "arrogance" with regard to AC is simply not accurate. Perception is reality, however, and it is too bad you have that perception of AC.

 

[SiuCubFan8]

Dude...
Really?

In what way was AC forced into the CCL? Perhaps you don't know what happened with the Suburban Christian Conference. Let me educate you. The SCC was a 12-team, 2-division conference. Seven of the twelve schools conspired to leave the Conference and by so doing, left the remaining five teams to fend for themselves. Who's the d-bag? The 7 schools that bailed or the 5 schools that stayed?

The CCL made room for Marmion, Montini and St. Francis by creating the CCL Green division. Aurora Christian, being a smaller school, made a home in the White division. Marian Central elected to move into the ESCC.

The 7 schools who bailed out on the SCC joined 5 teams from the Metro Suburban to create a 12-team, 2-division conference. The SCC was not perfect. There were mis-match flaws there, also. Despite the mis-matches, the SCC was comprised of 3A-5A schools (with the exception of 6A Marmion). At least there were no 3A vs. 7/8A contests as there are in the CCL.

Your statement about "questionable way" and "arrogance" with regard to AC is simply not accurate. Perception is reality, however, and it is too bad you have that perception of AC.

Lets not forget MCC had pledged to CCL and then bailed to ESCC.....

 

[Anon1754760634]

Maybe schools like Mac and AC shouldn't be d-bags and they wouldn't be forced into playing in this conference??? Just a thought... Both those schools have reputations of brining kids in a questionable way and of being arrogant as they win with such kids..

Have any proof? If so please share if not...well.....you know the drill

 

[ramblinman_rivals165935]

"Five months after agreeing to join the Catholic League for football and soccer next school year, Marian Central has switched course and decided to move to the East Suburban Catholic Conference for all sports instead."

Link to full article follows:

http://suntimeshighschoolsports.com/2014/08/06/marian-central-to-move-to-east-suburban-catholic/

 

[Cat Box]

Not interested in re-hashing history. People who pay attention know what's up.
Not interested in diversion comments which distract from the topic at hand.

I am interested in hearing legitimate solutions to 3A vs. 8A conference matchups in the CCL.
My original thread laid out some prospective solutions.
Anyone else? Anyone?

 

[HHSTigerFan]

Dude...
Really?

In what way was AC forced into the CCL? Perhaps you don't know what happened with the Suburban Christian Conference. Let me educate you. The SCC was a 12-team, 2-division conference. Seven of the twelve schools conspired to leave the Conference and by so doing, left the remaining five teams to fend for themselves. Who's the d-bag? The 7 schools that bailed or the 5 schools that stayed?

The CCL made room for Marmion, Montini and St. Francis by creating the CCL Green division. Aurora Christian, being a smaller school, made a home in the White division. Marian Central elected to move into the ESCC.

The 7 schools who bailed out on the SCC joined 5 teams from the Metro Suburban to create a 12-team, 2-division conference. The SCC was not perfect. There were mis-match flaws there, also. Despite the mis-matches, the SCC was comprised of 3A-5A schools (with the exception of 6A Marmion). At least there were no 3A vs. 7/8A contests as there are in the CCL.

Your statement about "questionable way" and "arrogance" with regard to AC is simply not accurate. Perception is reality, however, and it is too bad you have that perception of AC.

Seems the fact that the Chicago Catholic League was the only option for non Catholic Aurora Christian says a lot about your options.. So yeah, you were basically forced into the CCL..

My opinion of your school is what I hear from my buddies from Sandwich and Plano, I never hear a positive thing about the way business is done there.. Also played them in baseball a few years ago and thought their fans were *** hats, saw the same thing when went to a game there a few years ago..

The bigger question is why those 7 schools left the SCC...

 

[HHSTigerFan]

Not interested in re-hashing history. People who pay attention know what's up.
Not interested in diversion comments which distract from the topic at hand.

I am interested in hearing legitimate solutions to 3A vs. 8A conference matchups in the CCL.
My original thread laid out some prospective solutions.
Anyone else? Anyone?

If it's such a bad situation, why not look at other options like Bishop Mac continues to do??? Obviously there is no solution that's going to keep Aurora Christian, Fenwick and St Laurence happy...

 

[pjjp]

Whenever there is stated small-school unrest in the CCL, HHS is like a moth to the flame.

 

[Cat Box]

Seems the fact that the Chicago Catholic League was the only option for non Catholic Aurora Christian says a lot about your options.. So yeah, you were basically forced into the CCL..

My opinion of your school is what I hear from my buddies from Sandwich and Plano, I never hear a positive thing about the way business is done there.. Also played them in baseball a few years ago and thought their fans were *** hats, saw the same thing when went to a game there a few years ago..

The bigger question is why those 7 schools left the SCC...

HHS - you and your Sandwich/Plano buddies are not fans of private schools. That's obvious to everyone. There isn't anything I or anyone else can say that will change your attitude toward private schools, so I won't waste my time. Perhaps you would stop wasting our time on a private school thread when you really have nothing constructive to add.

 

[NNFAN]

Caravan - you are partially correct on this one point. Indeed, enrollment is only one factor. However, it is the most objective and measurable factor. This is why every state has a class system based primarily on enrollment. The rest of your statements, however, are embarrassing.

You speak of schools investing "time, effort and $ into football". Are you suggesting the IHSA should measure time, effort and $ to develop an equation to help classify football programs? What a brilliant idea! Perhaps they can penalize smaller schools with large commitments to football by bumping them up in class. Conversely, larger schools with small commitments to football can be rewarded by bumping them down in class. You're really on to something, Caravan!

Of course you are creating false arguments to ignore the problem I have clearly laid before you. Your false argument is B-Mac (520) vs. Iggy (1387) is fair because the smaller school makes a bigger investment in football. That was never my argument, was it, Caravan. I'm OK with a 3A vs. 5A matchup. My argument continues to be the imbalance (of enrollment and divisions) which leads to player safety concerns. I specifically cited Brother Rice (2637) playing Aurora Christian (420). You are more comfortable with AC playing a school with 6x the enrollment more than balancing out the divisions? You would rather a 3A school play an 8A school instead of limiting competition not to exceed 2 Class levels?

Then you say, "no one wants to run the gauntlet of the Blue". Since when did a school's "wants" come into play? Should we be managing high school football based upon emotion? Or should we endeavor to create objective standards to manage player safety and insure fair competition?

More brilliant nuggets from Caravan include..."if you force teams in (to the Blue division), they will leave and your conference loses out". You mean like the ESCC? They have a 10-team conference. It works because they don't have 3A schools playing 8A schools. You mean like the DVC? They have a 9-team conference and it works because they don't have 3A schools playing 8A schools. So if you "force" Fenwick to play up in the Blue, they are going to leave? Where are they going to go, Caravan? Will Friar ask to move into the ESCC? Or maybe they will join IC and Aurora Central over in the Western Suburban?

Final nugget of brilliance from Caravan... "I believe that the CCL has done an ok job of focusing on safety". I don't even know how to respond to this steaming pile of non-sense. Perhaps you think the CCL is keeping 8A athletes safe by insuring they get to play a couple 3A schools each season.

So Catbox... you are concerned about Bishop Mac getting hurt as they are physically thrashing St. Iggy 41-14 on their way to a state championship? Poor B Mac I do remember a B Mac player rubbing his boo boo as he was scoring the 6th TD. I heard the poor B Mac kicker had to soak his sore foot after kicking all those extra points. B Mac had 36 varsity players on their roster all season, with eight additional kids called up for the playoffs. You only have to put 11 on the field at one time. With two-platoon that's 22. Still enough extra to handle injuries.

 

[stonedlizard]

Is this an actual problem or a perceived problem? I would imagine most of these games have starters pulled in 2nd half if not earlier.

A few you should win easily, a few you may have little shot at winning, and hopefully the majority where it should be competitive.

Tend to agree with @JCHillmen - this is the goal. Will every team have this? No. Is the CCL pretty close to this? In my humble opinion, yes.

 

[NNFAN]

Not interested in re-hashing history. People who pay attention know what's up.
Not interested in diversion comments which distract from the topic at hand.

I am interested in hearing legitimate solutions to 3A vs. 8A conference matchups in the CCL.
My original thread laid out some prospective solutions.
Anyone else? Anyone?

I would suggest just forfeiting the games (like St. Rita). They could rest up for Leo. Why did they schedule Bolingbrook? Bolingbrook has 36,672 students. I don't think the coaches share your concerns.

 

[HHSTigerFan]

HHS - you and your Sandwich/Plano buddies are not fans of private schools. That's obvious to everyone. There isn't anything I or anyone else can say that will change your attitude toward private schools, so I won't waste my time. Perhaps you would stop wasting our time on a private school thread when you really have nothing constructive to add.

But it's a huge part of the equation and why their conference choices are so limited..

 

[Voodoo Tatum 21]

What about creating conferences by Geography? I'm not talking about "District Scheduling" in the strict interpretation - but rather a statewide attempt to group teams BOTH public and private into legit conferences by Geography and School size and ensure one or two games are "open" for non conference scheduling so if a rival is not in your geography - a year in and year out non conference game could be scheduled? The odds of that happening are probably slim to none with all the Politics.. I'm guessing it would be 100 times worse than congressional redistricting after a Census!!!

 

[Cat Box]

So Catbox... you are concerned about Bishop Mac getting hurt as they are physically thrashing St. Iggy 41-14 on their way to a state championship? Poor B Mac I do remember a B Mac player rubbing his boo boo as he was scoring the 6th TD. I heard the poor B Mac kicker had to soak his sore foot after kicking all those extra points. B Mac had 36 varsity players on their roster all season, with eight additional kids called up for the playoffs. You only have to put 11 on the field at one time. With two-platoon that's 22. Still enough extra to handle injuries.

The 2015 B-Mac team who trashed Iggy 41-14 was an elite 3A team just like Aurora Christian was in 2012 when they beat St. Francis 41-14 and Marmion 38-14. B-Mac 2015 and AC 2012 were perhaps the best teams either school had ever fielded in the history of their respective schools. It happens from time to time when a quality 3A program is super-loaded with talent and can play anyone in the state.

That's not normal. So let's not use the best B-Mac team in school history as a rationalization for why it is OK for 3A schools to play 8A schools.

3A schools - even the top 3A programs, are not going to be competitive with 7/8A schools each year. St. Joes, Leo and DePaul Prep get steam rolled year in and year out. So does B-Mac and AC when they are not having hall of fame years. Let's be realistic.

 

[HHSTigerFan]

The 2015 B-Mac team who trashed Iggy 41-14 was an elite 3A team just like Aurora Christian was in 2012 when they beat St. Francis 41-14 and Marmion 38-14. B-Mac 2015 and AC 2012 were perhaps the best teams either school had ever fielded in the history of their respective schools. It happens from time to time when a quality 3A program is super-loaded with talent and can play anyone in the state.

That's not normal. So let's not use the best B-Mac team in school history as a rationalization for why it is OK for 3A schools to play 8A schools.

3A schools - even the top 3A programs, are not going to be competitive with 7/8A schools each year. St. Joes, Leo and DePaul Prep get steam rolled year in and year out. So does B-Mac and AC when they are not having hall of fame years. Let's be realistic.

That right there shows you how clueless you are, that wasn't even one of Macs top 5 teams of all time... Good lord dude

 

[stonedlizard]

The 2015 B-Mac team who trashed Iggy 41-14 was an elite 3A team just like Aurora Christian was in 2012 when they beat St. Francis 41-14 and Marmion 38-14. B-Mac 2015 and AC 2012 were perhaps the best teams either school had ever fielded in the history of their respective schools. It happens from time to time when a quality 3A program is super-loaded with talent and can play anyone in the state.

That's not normal. So let's not use the best B-Mac team in school history as a rationalization for why it is OK for 3A schools to play 8A schools.

3A schools - even the top 3A programs, are not going to be competitive with 7/8A schools each year. St. Joes, Leo and DePaul Prep get steam rolled year in and year out. So does B-Mac and AC when they are not having hall of fame years. Let's be realistic.

But is that actually unsafe? Aren't these essentially JV games for the 7A/8A programs (don't tell my their starters are playing the whole game)? Is there anything wrong with 1 or 2 regular season games where Team A has a very small chance of beating Team B?

We can't even solve for competitive playoff games in each round. Now we're fretting over a handful of blow out games in the regular season too?

 

[stonedlizard]

That right there shows you how clueless you are, that wasn't even one of Macs top 5 teams of all time... Good lord dude

I know right? Guy probably can't even name the 2015 Kankakee all area team either. What a noob.

 

[LakeCtyNewt]

I'm dumber for reading this thread

 

[Cross Bones]

Your points are duly noted @catbox but i think caravan has a point in that enrollment for open enrollment schools is a more ambiguous notion. Also, the classifications represent enrollments in relation to public schools, i am not sure they are reasonable for discussing between two open enrollment schools.

For example, would there be 8 classes if there were only open enrollment schools? In my plan to separate the playoffs I allowed for 2 open enrollment classes. This sort of classification would make AC 1A and Rice 2A. Now we're only talking about 1 class up. AC would probably even be competitive in that game. I mean AC beat Senn and their 1276 students 49-0.

 

[Wild_Mustang]

I feel like Stevie Janowksi after reading this entire thread.

 

[caravan8]

Caravan - you are partially correct on this one point. Indeed, enrollment is only one factor. However, it is the most objective and measurable factor. This is why every state has a class system based primarily on enrollment. The rest of your statements, however, are embarrassing.

You speak of schools investing "time, effort and $ into football". Are you suggesting the IHSA should measure time, effort and $ to develop an equation to help classify football programs? What a brilliant idea! Perhaps they can penalize smaller schools with large commitments to football by bumping them up in class. Conversely, larger schools with small commitments to football can be rewarded by bumping them down in class. You're really on to something, Caravan!

Of course you are creating false arguments to ignore the problem I have clearly laid before you. Your false argument is B-Mac (520) vs. Iggy (1387) is fair because the smaller school makes a bigger investment in football. That was never my argument, was it, Caravan. I'm OK with a 3A vs. 5A matchup. My argument continues to be the imbalance (of enrollment and divisions) which leads to player safety concerns. I specifically cited Brother Rice (2637) playing Aurora Christian (420). You are more comfortable with AC playing a school with 6x the enrollment more than balancing out the divisions? You would rather a 3A school play an 8A school instead of limiting competition not to exceed 2 Class levels?

Then you say, "no one wants to run the gauntlet of the Blue". Since when did a school's "wants" come into play? Should we be managing high school football based upon emotion? Or should we endeavor to create objective standards to manage player safety and insure fair competition?

More brilliant nuggets from Caravan include..."if you force teams in (to the Blue division), they will leave and your conference loses out". You mean like the ESCC? They have a 10-team conference. It works because they don't have 3A schools playing 8A schools. You mean like the DVC? They have a 9-team conference and it works because they don't have 3A schools playing 8A schools. So if you "force" Fenwick to play up in the Blue, they are going to leave? Where are they going to go, Caravan? Will Friar ask to move into the ESCC? Or maybe they will join IC and Aurora Central over in the Western Suburban?

Final nugget of brilliance from Caravan... "I believe that the CCL has done an ok job of focusing on safety". I don't even know how to respond to this steaming pile of non-sense. Perhaps you think the CCL is keeping 8A athletes safe by insuring they get to play a couple 3A schools each season.

You seem upset about an innocent post suggesting that maybe AC & MAC aren't the little sisters of the poor when playing the likes of SICP. BMAC had 25 players on the roster? SICP had 41, that's not a big difference. More freshman went out for Golf than for football at SICP last season. Was someone from your team injured? Didn't see a large discrepancy of injuries reported in the CCL compare do other conferences.

 

[Cat Box]

Caravan - yes, injuries are a big deal at the 3A level. Let me explain the difference between injuries at the 3A and 8A level.

AC came off back to back 3A championships in 2011 and 2012 and went into the 2013 season pretty loaded. In fact, we had 18 seniors returning. A 3-peat was on everyone's mind. AC beat 5A St. Francis 24-14 in a very physical game on the road in week 5. The senior QB separated his shoulder in the 4th Q. The following 3 weeks AC started a freshman at QB.

Week 6 was a 35-14 loss to 6A Marmion - a game in which AC lost multiple players to injury. At least four of those players were 2-way starters (like losing 2 players). Literally half of their starters on both sides of the ball were out injured.
Week 7 was a 48-8 loss to IC.
Week 8 was a 49-0 loss to Montini.
This was a very ugly 3-week stretch which totally changed the completion of the season.

AC was back to full strength for the playoffs and beat IC at their place 24-3 in a week 10 rematch. AC goes on to lose in the semi-finals 26-28 to Stillman Valley who won the state championship.

What you get with a 3A team is a lot of 2-way starters. This doubles the risk of injury for those players. What's more, because you don't have the depth, you cannot platoon fresh bodies into a game. You see Sophomores getting a lot of playing time and perhaps starting. That makes for experienced Seniors, but it also makes for inexperienced, smaller players when they are Sophomores. AC started 5 Sophomores and a Freshman on Varsity last year.

I would argue that Loyola does not sustain as many injuries because little/no 2-way starters and the ability to platoon fresh players into the games. You have more experienced, stronger athletes because you are not starting Sophomores or Freshmen on Varsity.

How many QBs does Loyola have? If your starting QB gets injured, would you put a 14-year old Freshman on the field? That is the difference between 3A and 8A football. This is why an imbalance exists. This is why there is unnecessary player safety risk. This is why the IHSA should impose no more than a 2-class difference in scheduling games.

 

[stonedlizard]

Caravan - yes, injuries are a big deal at the 3A level. Let me explain the difference between injuries at the 3A and 8A level.

AC came off back to back 3A championships in 2011 and 2012 and went into the 2013 season pretty loaded. In fact, we had 18 seniors returning. A 3-peat was on everyone's mind. AC beat 5A St. Francis 24-14 in a very physical game on the road in week 5. The senior QB separated his shoulder in the 4th Q. The following 3 weeks AC started a freshman at QB.

Week 6 was a 35-14 loss to 6A Marmion - a game in which AC lost multiple players to injury. At least four of those players were 2-way starters (like losing 2 players). Literally half of their starters on both sides of the ball were out injured.
Week 7 was a 48-8 loss to IC.
Week 8 was a 49-0 loss to Montini.
This was a very ugly 3-week stretch which totally changed the completion of the season.

AC was back to full strength for the playoffs and beat IC at their place 24-3 in a week 10 rematch. AC goes on to lose in the semi-finals 26-28 to Stillman Valley who won the state championship.

What you get with a 3A team is a lot of 2-way starters. This doubles the risk of injury for those players. What's more, because you don't have the depth, you cannot platoon fresh bodies into a game. You see Sophomores getting a lot of playing time and perhaps starting. That makes for experienced Seniors, but it also makes for inexperienced, smaller players when they are Sophomores. AC started 5 Sophomores and a Freshman on Varsity last year.

I would argue that Loyola does not sustain as many injuries because little/no 2-way starters and the ability to platoon fresh players into the games. You have more experienced, stronger athletes because you are not starting Sophomores or Freshmen on Varsity.

How many QBs does Loyola have? If your starting QB gets injured, would you put a 14-year old Freshman on the field? That is the difference between 3A and 8A football. This is why an imbalance exists. This is why there is unnecessary player safety risk. This is why the IHSA should impose no more than a 2-class difference in scheduling games.

Shouldn't confuse the correlation of the impact to a specific team when a particular player gets injured to the enrollment of the team they were playing when said player was injured with causation of the injury.

 

[Cat Box]

Shouldn't confuse the correlation of the impact to a specific team when a particular player gets injured to the enrollment of the team they were playing when said player was injured with causation of the injury.

So you think 3A St. Joe vs. 3A DePaul prep is just a dangerous as 3A St. Joe vs. 8A Loyola?

 

[HHSTigerFan]

So you think 3A St. Joe vs. 3A DePaul prep is just a dangerous as 3A St. Joe vs. 8A Loyola?

What's more "dangerous", a game against 3A Wilmington or 8A Kelly???

 

[stonedlizard]

So you think 3A St. Joe vs. 3A DePaul prep is just a dangerous as 3A St. Joe vs. 8A Loyola?

I think that any perceived "danger" isn't due to the enrollment at Loyola, it's due to the fact that they were the ~#15 ranked team in the nation last year.

 

[LakeCtyNewt]

If someone is that concerned about the danger of plying a bigger better opponent, don't play football.

Stop this whole the bigger enrollment increases the danger level argument.

As silly as this thread is that argument is even dumber

 

[Cat Box]

What's more "dangerous", a game against 3A Wilmington or 8A Kelly???

This would be a real snappy come back if it were realistic that Wilmington scheduled Kelly.
Instead it just makes you look dumb.
Real life is 3A Leo playing 8A Loyola this year.
Real life is, Wilmington's largest opponent this year is 4A Sandwich.