Coach 34 - you are dead wrong

[jmac.sixpack]

First, I want to say that I have enjoyed how you defend your position. Second, I care about State and not about Stans.

I run a big business (5000 employees). So, I am going to first look at the decision to make a change like a business. How smart is it to make a change in your business that 50% of your customers (State fans) don't like? Also, was it smart if the change puts your business at the bottom of its industry (last in SEC) and makes the business have its worst year (11 SEC losses in a row) in 50+ years? If I made a change like our AD did with these results, I wouldn't have a job very long - I can promise you that. Our stock would drop and many stakeholders would lose a lot of money. (State is losing a lot of money in support right now.) I don't know what you do for a living, but most businesses are not on 4-year plans - again, I promise you that - as you can lose too much ground, and maybe the position in your industry, over that time. If things don't go right over the next few years, we could be that basketball team that never gets it back.

I understand your frustration with Stans and wanting a change back at the end of last season. But, now you know the future. First, we averaged 22 wins over the last 12 years and didn't have a losing season. We are 7-18 and 2-11. Also, our team would have been Hood (just said in an interview he left when his coach left plus I know someone who talked to a family member), Pollard (I know someone who just talked to his mom), Gray (21 game starter at Texas Tech at point guard), a JC big man (forgot his name and where he ended up), and Steele/Sword/Flat Top/Ware/Lewis/Johnson (all recruits of previous coaches). One can easily see which team would be better.

Moreover, let's talk about support. Yes, there would have been some loss in support if no change was made. But, it wouldn't be as much as now. I know 5 big supporters that gave up their courtside seats. I don't know anyone who really goes to games - and many that don't even watch on tv - any more. One big supporter told me that he went from 8 to 2 courtside tickets and has been to 1 game (his son asked him to go see MISSOURI play). Of course, we lost by 42 points and he said that you could sit in any seat in the Hump. He won't be back. I dropped to 2 courtside seats and gave them away - my family doesn't want to go. When people have family and business responsibilities, you better have a good product that people will take the time and money to attend - our basketball team is not a good product.

Finally, let's talk about basketball coaching. For the first time this year, I saw some of a State basketball game. I watched the last half of the Alabama game last night. First, Alabama is 2nd in the SEC and does not look good to me. Second, we don't run anything that looks like an offense. You are the expert, but I cannot see any plays that create easy shots. All I saw was quick shots or individual moves and turnover after turnover after turnover. I see why we only scored 10 points in a half. You couldn't make me take time away from meaningful things again to watch that.

Again, I know we will just have to agree to disagree. I have read your posts and just disagree with you. And, our team's results speak for themselves - and results are what every team/business is measured by.

 

[DerHntr]

I am going to pick on just one part of your message here.

You know a big supporter of RICK STANSBURY who went from 8 courtside seats to 2. He had to do this prior to the season. He went to one game later in our season when we started off SEC play winning a few games. So this guy gave up on MSU before he saw any of the losing streak.

You and your buddies need a reality check. The team did not wear Rick's Rowdies t-shirts when they played. They wore MSU jerseys.

 

[jmac.sixpack]

I am going to pick on just one part of your message here.

You know a big supporter of RICK STANSBURY who went from 8 courtside seats to 2. He had to do this prior to the season. He went to one game later in our season when we started off SEC play winning a few games. So this guy gave up on MSU before he saw any of the losing streak.

You and your buddies need a reality check. The team did not wear Rick's Rowdies t-shirts when they played. They wore MSU jerseys.

I didn't say they weren't Stans supporters - I said that I wasn't. But, you will not win them back with this product. Plus, they could have been as frustrated with basketball as many were by the end of last season. Also, I do not tell anyone what they should do with their money (courtside tickets plus Bulldog Club dues to buy these tickets are not cheap, along with the same costs for football and baseball). FYI, before you ask - I gave up 2 of my 4 tickets as I knew that I would have too many conflicts to keep some of my family from going.

 

[hatfieldms]

You are comparing apples to oranges

Of course most businesses don't get put on a four year plan. Coaches do though, it happens all the time. Coaches are given four years usually to turn a ship around and you know as well as anyone that this ship was not selling in the right direction under Stansbury

 

[Beretta.sixpack]

Well, one of the biggest boosters in the golden triangle area....

is a doctor I call on in Columbus.....he has and still is always neutral on the Stansbury debacle...

however, he said in the past we was only able to get 2 court side seats....all that were available....right behind where the recruits sit.....he told me back in the fall he picked up 6 additional seats to make 8......he said all these butt hurt people giving up their seats will want them back one day.....he said he may not be going to all the games, and he wasn't giving up his seats, just adding more.....we are down, but we aren't out...

 

[thrill1]

So prior to the season Rick Ray knew the following:
Davis & Applewhite would have season ending injuries.
He would have to kick off Shaun Smith & Kirsters Ziedaks bc of repeated team violation.
Jalen Steele would miss 9 games to a wrist injury.
Wendell Lewis would suffer a season ending injury.
That's FIVE scholarship players gone before SEC play.

This team, despite its severe lack of talent, experience and depth, never quits, evidenced by fighting bama to the end last night. A 4- point game with less than 4 to go?!

I'm so sick and tired of people like you who know absolutely nothing about basketball jump on the "Woe is Us" bandwagon.

 

[QuaoarsKing]

We would NOT have Hood or Pollard. How many times must this be said? It's almost time to start banning people for saying we would.

 

[jmac.sixpack]

We would NOT have Hood or Pollard. How many times must this be said? It's almost time to start banning people for saying we would.

So, I should believe you over what a family member said directly to a friend of mine? I don't think so.

 

[StillTbonewannabe]

Businesses don't deal with injuries that eliminate starters. I think most fans were ashamed and embarressed by the things happening with the team the last few years. Winning only covers up so much. The team obviously had a big problem with discipline. We had seniors on the team before that would cover Stans lack of discipline. Unless Stans was covering up stuff, the suspensions would still have happened.

 

[jmac.sixpack]

Of course lost businesses don't get put on a four year plan. Coaches do though, it happens all the time. Coaches are given four years usually to turn a ship around and you know as well as anyone that this ship was not selling in the right direction under Stansbury

I agree there is a difference - you are correct. But, there is risk involved.

 

[jmac.sixpack]

is a doctor I call on in Columbus.....he has and still is always neutral on the Stansbury debacle...

however, he said in the past we was only able to get 2 court side seats....all that were available....right behind where the recruits sit.....he told me back in the fall he picked up 6 additional seats to make 8......he said all these butt hurt people giving up their seats will want them back one day.....he said he may not be going to all the games, and he wasn't giving up his seats, just adding more.....we are down, but we aren't out...

Yes, that is a chance they took. The doctor has the right to spend his money for the future. Not everyone will want to do that. I guess Coach 34 snapped up 8 tickets and paid the Bulldog Club dues to get them. Guys, it is not cheap - if you also get 10 - 12 football tickets with some in Club Level. You need to have a good product for people to spend the money.

 

[DerHntr]

You missed my point.

You are citing the actions of people who like Stans more than MSU (at least their actions say so). These 17ing people do not help your argument at all.

Also, you point to Ray not having time to improve in a comparison to the business world. Where you are wrong is you don't see the last few years of MSU basketball being bad and getting worse. When a new CEO is hired to turn a business around it almost always gets worse before it gets better. They are given time but not as much time as a college coach. Want to know why? The college coach can't use any and all resources as he sees fit to get as many players as he wants. The coach is restricted heavily and it slows the process. A CEO can hire whoever, whenever, and within resource availability for whatever amount. Hence, the shorter time frame. But the biggest point is a change agent in a company who is hired as a transformational leader is given time BECAUSE THE SITUATION WAS BAD.

Repeat this to yourself until it sticks: Rick Ray may not be the answer but Rick Stansbury was proven to not be the answer.

 

[dorndawg]

Comparing a business to a basketball program is, I'll be nice, misguided. In a business, you are constantly losing and adding competitors - the SEC adds or loses teams every couple of DECADES. Secondly, a business exists to create profit for its shareholders. A sports program exists to win competitions, with providing entertainment as a derivative of winning.

 

[dawgman42]

Yeah, because "family members" of high school basketball talent are always upfront and honest and always thinking about the kid first. You go on believing that one all you want.

 

[jmac.sixpack]

So prior to the season Rick Ray knew the following:
Davis & Applewhite would have season ending injuries.
He would have to kick off Shaun Smith & Kirsters Ziedaks bc of repeated team violation.
Jalen Steele would miss 9 games to a wrist injury.
Wendell Lewis would suffer a season ending injury.
That's FIVE scholarship players gone before SEC play.

This team, despite its severe lack of talent, experience and depth, never quits, evidenced by fighting bama to the end last night. A 4- point game with less than 4 to go?!

I'm so sick and tired of people like you who know absolutely nothing about basketball jump on the "Woe is Us" bandwagon.

This debate has nothing to do about Rick Ray. He seems to be a good guy trying to do his best (and getting paid $1 million). This is about was it the right TIME to make a change. To me, the evidence is in the results. Would I have made the change - I would have thought about it. But, in the end I would have not made a change but held my employee (Stans) to a standard. And, if he didn't do it then at least the next coach would have had a chance since we would have players. Again, this is just my opinion. Coach 34 has been dead set on his opinion and everyone else is stupid. (Just like your statement. I can guarantee that I run a bigger business than you and make bigger decisions than you - and basketball in college is a business.)

 

[Sutterkane]

I do not own a business, but as a business owner, do you think it's ok if the other 50% of your customers (and growing) do not like your product and want to see something different are ignored? Sometimes you have to declare chapter 11 to keep from declaring chapter 7. I'm also not sure what kind of business you are in, but I can tell you every big business I've been a part of to where I am at least included in monetary conversations had clear visions and concrete goals for what they wanted their business to look like over 4, 10, and even 20 years.

 

[horshack.sixpack]

Comparing a business to MSU basketball probably isn't the best analogy...

...other than both involving revenue and leadership. I've run businesses and large business units and I've seen some pretty myopic and stupid decisions made that absolutely short-circuited the long term success of the business, particularly in publicly traded companies that had stock holder pressure to produce something that looked good for that quarter. I've also seen entire departments "held hostage" by an employee who technically performed well enough that the leadership didn't have the stones to get rid of him(for fear that nobody else could do the job as well) even though he was basically a cancer on the organization.

Bottom line is nobody likes change unless they are the ones making it. Sounds like your buddies didn't get the have over-reaching input into the MSU Athletic Department decision making, and for that, I'm proud of Stricklin. I'd like to think that at least in some cases there are real leaders who will do what they think is right for an organization(for which they are responsible) without having a unanimous vote among the biggest boosters. He'll be the one to take responsibility, he gets to make the decision.

I've also seen in companies cases where everybody quickly got their panties out of a wad and got behind the new leadership because of company loyalty and I've seen where they did everything that they could to sabotage the new leadership because of they were selfish and didn't get their way.

 

[DerHntr]

Hilarious. So you make bigger decisions in the real world and that qualifies you better than the rest of us to give an opinion on decisions made in a university.

Bossman I am certain you don't understand the vast differences between academia and business.

 

[jmac.sixpack]

Comparing a business to a basketball program is, I'll be nice, misguided. In a business, you are constantly losing and adding competitors - the SEC adds or loses teams every couple of DECADES. Secondly, a business exists to create profit for its shareholders. A sports program exists to win competitions, with providing entertainment as a derivative of winning.

Let's see - a business has a budget, has goals, has employees, has competitors trying to beat you. Sounds like college basketball could be a business.

 

[dorndawg]

Let's see - a business has a budget, has goals, has employees, has competitors trying to beat you.

As do non-profits, which is more akin (though not apples-to-apples) to a big-time college sports program.

 

[Buford T. Justice]

Let's use the business analogy for a minute. Sometimes highly successful businesses at the top of their industry must make changes or they will get passed by. A good example is Research in Motion. They made the blackberry and were the king daddy of all smartphone makers. They stood pat and didn't change with the times. Now Samsung and Apple have blown the doors off of their company and their stock price is 10% of what it once was.

That is what happened with Stansbury (the blackberry). He had taken us as far as he could and it was time to change or get left behind.

Also, just curious as to how you would handle employees fist-fighting at work and on the job (Bailey-Sidney), doing drugs, telling their bosses to go <17> themselves (Bost), etc. Do you coddle them and give them raises for such?

 

[dorndawg]

Wait, you didn't know that if you have a large business, that makes you an expert on EVERYTHING?! Jeez, what a doofus...

 

[Buford T. Justice]

I run a big business (5000 employees).

Do you RUN a big business or OWN a big business? There is a huge difference. Just trying to see if you have some skin in the game?

 

[SignalToNoise]

You make some interesting points but I don't feel the business to college basketball comparison is exactly 1 to 1.

 

[thrill1]

You don't know what the hell I do. What a lame response from a big timer. Yes, Sally lets go with the Sharpie fine tips this quarter.

If you had all those court side seats then Shirley you could see what u saw from my peasant seats in 206 for the last four four years. Complacency, lack of hustle and organization, zero player development, losing to inferior non-conference opponents every November.

Face it, last year was do or die for Stans and he flat out blew it. Remember we had two (!) NCAA's in past 6 years and one of those was a miraculous run thru 09 tourney.

 

[Bjarnason_Clucas]

This debate has nothing to do about Rick Ray. He seems to be a good guy trying to do his best (and getting paid $1 million). This is about was it the right TIME to make a change. To me, the evidence is in the results. Would I have made the change - I would have thought about it. But, in the end I would have not made a change but held my employee (Stans) to a standard. And, if he didn't do it then at least the next coach would have had a chance since we would have players. Again, this is just my opinion. Coach 34 has been dead set on his opinion and everyone else is stupid. (Just like your statement. I can guarantee that I run a bigger business than you and make bigger decisions than you - and basketball in college is a business.)

How do you know Stans wasn't held to a standard last season and failed to meet those requirements? Also, Hood was gone regardless and Pollard was not coming to State no matter who was the coach. We would have probably seen a few more transfers if Stans had stayed (it seemed to happen every year).

MSU basketball was stuck in a rut and needed a change. In his first 7 years Stansbury made the NCAAT 4 times; in is last 7 years he made it twice (with one of those only due to a SECT run). The program was not improving and his failings as a coach were highlighted by the fact that the same problems (losing to terrible non-conference teams and dropping critical SEC games) kept us out of the NCAAT in 2 of his last 3 seasons. Things were not getting better and Stans had already lost authority within the program. The players were running the show and showed on the court. As many have already pointed out, Stans hitched his wagon to Sidney and it failed. He is out of a job and Sidney is off somewhere smashing buffets.

If Stans had stayed at the helm we would have continued to see a steady decline in MSU basketball that would be harder to recover from than what we have now. Would this year had more wins? Most likely yes. But long-term MSU basketball will be better off because they made the change before things became like the end of the Sherrill or Polk II years.

I still can't believe folks would rather stay mired in mediocrity (which would have progressed to absolute failure) than take a chance at greatness.

 

[DawgatAuburn]

I don't even know where to start with this...

*Your business success has nothing to do with this. It's a terrible premise to start out with. So there's that.
*I strongly doubt that 50% of State fans wanted Bury back. STRONGLY. Any proof of that?
*Are you certain we are losing support? Got anything that's not anecdotal evidence to back that up?
*Nearly every coach in America is on a four year plan. Coaches are more like politicians than businessmen in that regard.
*"The basketball team that never gets it back"........dramatic much?
*Why did you only include 12 of Bury's 14 years? Perhaps because it included a losing season and brought his average per season down, I would guess.
*The Hood, Pollard and Grey assertions are ridiculous on both sides. Hood had quotes saying BOTH things. Pollard never committed to us when Stans was the coach, and I am certain we would have taken it if he had wanted too. Grey - who knows. But let's not anoint him as All America just yet. He's shooting 18% from three, turning it over 3.3 times a game and has led his team to 11 losses in their last 12. He's also basically their only option, as TTU had two point guards transfer out after last year and another on the team that is a senior who had the chance to play last year and basically proved he wasn't the answer. But I'm sure you knew all of that.
*Loss in support. Yes, it would have dropped off this year, but neither you nor I know how much. I do know this. Those people you described - the ones who went from 8 to 2 courtside tickets - they are part of the problem. The program is bigger than the former coach. Full disclosure - I am a sporadic season ticket holder in basketball. Some years I know I will be able to make it to more games than others, so I buy the tickets. Some years I know I won't. This year I knew I would not, so I didn't buy, but I plan to again soon. If I had a couple of grand to blow on tickets/Bulldog club contributions I would do it to support the program.
*Your sanctimonious preaching about business and family responsibilities and having a good product is funny to me considering the product we have put on the court the last few years. I guess watching Renardo walk up and down the court was entertaining, or watching Bost roll his eyes at Stansbury, or watching us play to the level of our competition almost every night, be it #1 Kentucky or Rider.
*So it's late February, you watched your first State basketball game, and you feel like you are enough of an expert to make all of these determinations. That's amazing what you can pick up in 20 minutes. And what a true supporter you are as well, having ignored 24.5 games.
*We don't have much of an offense because we turn it over like pancakes. Hard to get in an offense when you don't have a point guard, the other team knows it, and just pressures you into bad mistakes. We are also playing with three freshmen, two junior college guys, plus Jalen and Roquez and two walk ons. That's is, if they are not hurt or suspended. We also apparently have discipline policies this year that are not related to tweeting and mandatory pot smoking suspensions that we mask as knee injuries. It doesn't make is any easier to watch, but we play a hell of a lot harder. Maybe you picked that up in the 20 minutes you have invested in the season.

 

[dorndawg]

Slow clap.

 

[Thirty-Two Dive]

^^ Deserves a Like button

 

[Lettucexxxx]

I bet your business sucks. It was prob started by your father anyways.

 

[tommyboy1520]

After reading through it all, I decided not to pile on. But I've changed my mind because I can't stand a whiny baby.

In my experience, people in your position (running a big business) tend to think everything in life is like business. It's not. No matter how much you want to explain how it is, college basketball has less in common with running a business than you want to believe. While you can make a few generalizations on how similar they are, it really is an apples to oranges comparison when you get down to it.

And all your high dollar buddies who dumped their seats will be scrambling back for them if/when this team vastly improves over the next 2-3 years, because that's what hypocritical, entitled little ***** do. One poster put it perfectly: these people are Stans supporters, not State supporters. And those kind of people can stay gone for all I care. You may be one hell of a businessman, but you come across as an ignorant, pompous ***.

 

[NewTweederEndzoneDance]

False on all accounts, including your comparison. In the business world, if you are the CEO of a big company and you put up a ROI that shrinks consistently year by year over a four year period, you are going to be fired for sucking at your job. Let's say that during that same four year period, you have employees, that you directly hired into positions of large responsibility, get arrested for embezzling from the company. Guess what? That **** is also coming back on your head, and once again, you are fired.

So if you think about it, Stansbury's decreasing ROI over the past several years should be enough to have gotten him fired in the business world without even contemplating the 17ups of all his own players who he miserably failed to control, despite being in charge of them.

Conclusion: Your and idiot

 

[Tds &amp; Beer]

Newsflash. A basketball program is not a business, so your comparison is pointless. If you were to compare it to a business though, think of it like this. Your product is becoming useless. You take a step back to revamp. Profits disappear for a year. The next year, they are almost back to normal. After that, your future is bright. There is no point to talk about Stansbury anymore. You would think that a business owner that is in charge of that many employees would be able to see that we were gonna be bad before the season started. Everyone knew it. I knew it. You knew it. Everyone knew it. The people who are too concerned with the short term get on here and whine like babies. The people who are concerned with actually having a good program and are looking to the future are just as positive as they were when the firing happened. Nothing has changed. Get it through your skull. If you don't like it, fine. Don't come to games. Don't support the program. I will. I am very optimistic still. Same as I was after the firing. Settle down. You are acting like a child.

Also, it absolutely cracks me up when people who act like they know basketball say that Ray isn't coaching offense. If you can't tell the difference between how he is coaching and how rick was, there is no point in even having a converesation. You really have no idea what you are talking about if you think this and should never comment on basketball again. Ray just doesn't have the players. It's that simple. Wait till next year if you are going to ***** about coaching. Doing so before then is just ridiculous and there is nothing you can do or say to change that.

And who cares what players we might have had. We'd still be in the same position as last year. Confused players on offense who don't listen to the coach or practice or train like they should. We might would have an outside shot of the tournament because the SEC is so bad. Then we lose the first game because we haven't faced hardly any good teams all year. If no tourney, we are in this position next year instead of this year. I am so glad that our AD isn't as short-sighted as our boosters that don't know **** about basketball.

Ray could literally be the best thing for our program ever. We have no way of knowing yet. If any of the boosters don't have the sack to take a season off, they can gtfo.

 

[Coach34]

Let's see - a business has a budget, has goals, has employees, has competitors trying to beat you. Sounds like college basketball could be a business.

We've hashed this thing out to death. But what the hell:

A coach's job is not solely based on wins and losses- if it was, Joe Paterno would not have been fired. Stansbury was not fired solely on his won/loss record. What tipped the scale ultimately was the lack of discipline within the program that was causing a black eye for the University. The President of our University, or CEO as you would call him, did not appreciate people around the country referring to our basketball program as "the most dysfunctional program in America" and a "dumpster fire". He didnt enjoy seeing players on ESPN fighting in the stands after a game wearing a wife beater t-shirt.

Since you are a captain of industry- you are the CEO, and a division of your company that had been pretty good over the years, has started to slide. Not only has this division started to slide, but now they are embarrassing the company publicly with their antics. Local TV and radio stations are making fun of your company because of the antics within this division. You have warned your manager of that division a few times to get things cleaned up or changes would be made. Do you as CEO just continue to let things go? Or do you go in and make changes to get things cleaned up?

 

[MagnificentBastard]

There is strong evidence we are losing support. There is a 25% drop in reported attendance in home SEC games. I'm quite sure the drop in actual attendance is much worse than that. So yeah there is evidence that support has dropped. Anyone with eyes can see "butts in the seats" support has dropped about 50%.

 

[Tds &amp; Beer]

There is strong evidence we are losing support. There is a 25% drop in reported attendance in home SEC games. I'm quite sure the drop in actual attendance is much worse than that. So yeah there is evidence that support has dropped. Anyone with eyes can see "butts in the seats" support has dropped about 50%.

And all employees knew this would happen for a couple years. The research team even told us so. If profits are up in the years after, it was worth it. The company was in danger of foreclosure. A change had to be made. Profits(winning) cures everything. Some people seem to think we are done making money. Stop being so myopic.

 

[Buford T. Justice]

Since you are a captain of industry- you are the CEO, and a division of your company that had been pretty good over the years, has started to slide. Not only has this division started to slide, but now they are embarrassing the company publicly with their antics. Local TV and radio stations are making fun of your company because of the antics within this division. You have warned your manager of that division a few times to get things cleaned up or changes would be made. Do you as CEO just continue to let things go? Or do you go in and make changes to get things cleaned up?

I own a business and you are spot on. Even if the business is successful, when you start to become a laughing-stock and your reputation starts taking hits, etc., you had better correct those problems, or your business will start an irreversible trend of losing customers.

 

[johnson86-1]

By your analogy, Stansbury should have been fired a year earlier.

You don't let problems fester with a business for a few years, especially when it's a problem within the control of the CEO. The CEO either fixes it or gets fired. You certainly don't let the program go to the brink and then expect a new CEO to turn it around in a year. Bad analogy overall, but to the extent it works at all, it just means Stansbury should have been fired a year earlier.

 

[HD6]

Evidently selling medical equipment makes you one, so it's not a stretch.

 

[DawgatAuburn]

The quote was: If I made a change like our AD did with these results, I wouldn't have a job very long - I can promise you that. Our stock would drop and many stakeholders would lose a lot of money. (State is losing a lot of money in support right now.)

I was not interpreting that statement as referencing attendance. Even Croom's blind people can see the crowds are down. I took that to mean that giving to the Bulldog Club is down because of the basketball season.