Collective losses by sport in the NCAA

[615dawg]

Ever wonder why State and Ole Miss are the only SEC schools without swimming? Goodness. Something is going to have to give on the Olympic sports - too much money being lost by everyone. I expect smaller rosters and even some sports cuts. Marshall just cut swimming a week before their conference championship.

I think State does this well. We are at the minimum for Division I sports but the athletic department turned a small profit (about $200k) last year. Florida State, for example, has a $437 million deficit. Football isn't going to cut into that. I figure they will be hunting for SEC/B1G money sooner rather than later.

 

[mstateglfr]

It be interesting to see how the impact transportation costs have had on various sports program budgets.
Say 2015 vs 2025- the cost for transportstion, adjusted for inflation.

Are transportation costs actually higher now, considering all the geographically crazy conferences in D1?


Not suggesting that is the only budgetary issue or even a significant budgetary issue, that just popped in my head when reading thru the list of sports and losses.

 

[615dawg]

It be interesting to see how the impact transportation costs have had on various sports program budgets.
Say 2015 vs 2025- the cost for transportstion, adjusted for inflation.

Are transportation costs actually higher now, considering all the geographically crazy conferences in D1?


Not suggesting that is the only budgetary issue or even a significant budgetary issue, that just popped in my head when reading thru the list of sports and losses.

Its definitely an issue. The travel costs in the Big Ten and ACC went up substantially. When you have Rutgers playing a conference game at UCLA and Boston College playing a conference game at Stanford, its a problem.

Call me old fashioned, but I think the SEC is too spread out. South Carolina to Texas is too much for a women's volleyball mid week match. When are student-athletes expected to be students?

Some conferences are proposing "meeting places" for Olympic sports. For example, in the ACC, you could get Cal, Stanford, Boston College and Pitt to all meet at Pitt and play the other three. Then BC would host a group of 4, and Cal/Stanford would. It cuts down on home matches but cuts the travel in half.

If these Title IX related lawsuits go the way I think they will (see Oregon women's sports trying to get the same NIL as football), then major colleges are going to look and say, maybe Mississippi State has it right - lets just do the minimum to qualify D1 (which is 15 sports). You start having to pay women athletes on the same level as football and you will have less opportunities for women athletes.

If the WNBA strikes this season as expected, there will never be another WNBA game.

 

[ckDOG]

Shut them all down and give the savings to football. Sorry, tens of thousands of student athletes. Picked the wrong sport. I want the backup RG making at least 6 figures. You can jog or tumble on your own time.

*****

 

[greenbean.sixpack]

Cheerleading should be a sport, they are great athletes.

 

[John Deaux VII]

Can anyone explain the huge difference between Track and Field and Swimming and Diving? I am willing to bet that roster size is larger for track and field, but I can't imagine it being the reason for a loss almost twice as big. Baseball is lowest simply because of attendance and televsion I would think.

 

[FormerBully]

I shared this on the other board, and this list confirms it. I have a friend who worked for ESPN and was part of the SEC Network until about three years ago. He worked behind the scenes and still has many connections. ESPN sees a lot of potential in college baseball, and MLB sees event opportunities for a bigger partnership. This list confirms some of this with softball losing 33m more than baseball. College baseball is about to see more of a push.

 

[FormerBully]

Can anyone explain the huge difference between Track and Field and Swimming and Diving? I am willing to bet that roster size is larger for track and field, but I can't imagine it being the reason for a loss almost twice as big. Baseball is lowest simply because of attendance and televsion I would think.

I roomed with someone on the cross-country and track team at State. Track has more athletes than anyone on campus and requires more facilities upkeep for the different events. That is a lot of money for meals, tutors, etc.

 

[Seinfeld]

So MSU accounts for nearly 20% of the entire gap in baseball?

 

[615dawg]

Mark Cuban on the problem with women's sports that NIL has created. WNBA players are asking for 27.5% of league REVENUE (not profit) and colleges are paying top players up to $2 million. Women's sports is about to face a reckoning.

 

[tenureplan]

Ever wonder why State and Ole Miss are the only SEC schools without swimming? Goodness. Something is going to have to give on the Olympic sports - too much money being lost by everyone. I expect smaller rosters and even some sports cuts. Marshall just cut swimming a week before their conference championship.

I think State does this well. We are at the minimum for Division I sports but the athletic department turned a small profit (about $200k) last year. Florida State, for example, has a $437 million deficit. Football isn't going to cut into that. I figure they will be hunting for SEC/B1G money sooner rather than later.

So we should do away with track and field and soccer and pick up rowing and gymnastics

 

[Perd Hapley]

Anyone that has ever owned a swimming pool is not at all surprised by this.

 

[615dawg]

So we should do away with track and field and soccer and pick up rowing and gymnastics

As said above, I think the track and field issue is largely the number of athletes. I think that number should be cut.

State has 70 athletes on the track and field roster and another 17 in women's only cross country. That's almost as many as football that you have travel expenses, meal expenses, scholarship expenses, etc for and unless there are earmarked donations, they do not bring in a penny.

I think what you are likely to see is instead of six sprinters, you have four. Instead of five distance runners, you have three. You can get that roster down under 50 real quick. I hate it for those athletes, but this is unsustainable for most schools.

 

[Seinfeld]

Mark Cuban on the problem with women's sports that NIL has created. WNBA players are asking for 27.5% of league REVENUE (not profit) and colleges are paying top players up to $2 million. Women's sports is about to face a reckoning.

Being the business mogul that Cuban is, the only part that Cuban should find crazy is the fact that WBB players are making 1.2M.

He knows damn well that the WNBA has operated at a substantial loss for its entire existence, and if the OP chart has broken WBB out by itself, I’m fairly certain that it would dwarf all other numbers that were given. If the average P4 WBB team is operating at a 3-6M loss every season, and we have every reason to believe that this is true, we can all do the math here

 

[615dawg]

Being the business mogul that Cuban is, the only part that Cuban should find crazy is the fact that WBB players are making 1.2M.

He knows damn well that the WNBA has operated at a substantial loss for its entire existence, and if the OP chart has broken WBB out by itself, I’m fairly certain that it would dwarf all other numbers that were given. If the average P4 WBB team is operating at a 3-6M loss every season, and we have every reason to believe that this is true, we can all do the math here

Mississippi State lost $4 million on women's basketball last year. Men lost $400k. That's for two 8/9 seed type teams.

 

[ckDOG]

So MSU accounts for nearly 20% of the entire gap in baseball?

 

[615dawg]

Someone posted on Twitter that going back to the 1990 conference model (with just a few changes) would save college athletic departments a collective $200 million on travel.

 

[bulldoghair]

So MSU accounts for nearly 20% of the entire gap in baseball?

There is no other program in America with a higher single year deficit than MSU’s recent $4.2M.

And that doesn’t even include with all the uncapped NIL from collectives factored in, which around 3M more.

 

[johnson86-1]

Call me old fashioned, but I think the SEC is too spread out. South Carolina to Texas is too much for a women's volleyball mid week match. When are student-athletes expected to be students?

Every sport outside of football and men's basketball and baseball, they should probably go back to divisions and minimize cross divisional matchups for the sports every SEC team participates in. Do you need Oklahoma playing UF in volleyball or softball? Or A&M playing south carolina?

Hell, I'm not even sure the same shouldn't apply to men's basketball. Go back to having division champions and focus on getting home and away in within the division and only adding enough cross divisional matchups to the extent you need them to fill out schedules. Give fans another banner to care about and maybe it would make the SEC tourney mean something outside of an automatic bid that the winner likely isn't going to need regardless.

 

[615dawg]

Every sport outside of football and men's basketball and baseball, they should probably go back to divisions and minimize cross divisional matchups for the sports every SEC team participates in. Do you need Oklahoma playing UF in volleyball or softball? Or A&M playing south carolina?

Hell, I'm not even sure the same shouldn't apply to men's basketball. Go back to having division champions and focus on getting home and away in within the division and only adding enough cross divisional matchups to the extent you need them to fill out schedules. Give fans another banner to care about and maybe it would make the SEC tourney mean something outside of an automatic bid that the winner likely isn't going to need regardless.

That's a great solution. Probably should extend to basketball and baseball as well if we are being truthful. Baseball actually had divisions in a 10-team SEC.

 

[She Mate Me]

I shared this on the other board, and this list confirms it. I have a friend who worked for ESPN and was part of the SEC Network until about three years ago. He worked behind the scenes and still has many connections. ESPN sees a lot of potential in college baseball, and MLB sees event opportunities for a bigger partnership. This list confirms some of this with softball losing 33m more than baseball. College baseball is about to see more of a push.

Minor league baseball has been in slow motion death spiral for years. It makes sense to me that, especially in this era, colleges would take on more prominence.

 

[615dawg]

Minor league baseball has been in slow motion death spiral for years. It makes sense to me that, especially in this era, colleges would take on more prominence.

Minor League Baseball is a mess right now. Its time for College Baseball to step up to the plate.

 

[johnson86-1]

Minor league baseball has been in slow motion death spiral for years. It makes sense to me that, especially in this era, colleges would take on more prominence.

Minor League Baseball is a mess right now. Its time for College Baseball to step up to the plate.

I know players get better development in places like the G League and minor league ball because they don't have to pretend to be a student (which I think we still do for the most part, at least until they can stack enough credits to be a "grad student"), but it would be so much better for the pro leagues to push more players to use college as minor league development. Have somebody else pay them and maybe even develop some fans from college that carry over to the pros (although that would probably require not transferring every year).

If I were in the NBA or MLB, I'd be encouraging rule changes that either allowed teams to send draft picks to college, or that greatly incentivized taking players out of college, so that all but the best players would be pressured to make a stop in college first and delay the pro league picking up the full costs of their development.

 

[FormerBully]

Minor league baseball has been in slow motion death spiral for years. It makes sense to me that, especially in this era, colleges would take on more prominence.

That is what my friend told me. MLB sees it as a way to replace lower minor leagues. Let colleges cover development, we might see NHL style draft in the coming years for the MLB, where MLB teams draft the rights for a player.

 

[Baddog11]

So if they are saying Miss State baseball selling 80,000 hotdogs during a weekend series is just money lost then that hurts quality and results in stinky cups.

 

[paindonthurt]

Shut them all down and give the savings to football. Sorry, tens of thousands of student athletes. Picked the wrong sport. I want the backup RG making at least 6 figures. You can jog on or tumble your own time.

*****

Well if we truly want to pay people “their worth” we’d annihilate a lot of sports for sure.

 

[ckDOG]

Well if we truly want to pay people “their worth” we’d annihilate a lot of sports for sure.

I'm fine with college football being run as a business bc of the giant market that's developed bc of it. Just have someone run it like an NFL commish would and keep it out of most of the rest of college sports which has the vast majority of its history as not being viewed as a profit center.

The non-revenue sports have largely been a money pit (duh) rationalized by intangible value created for student body and community. Did that view change or are we letting a very profitable sport for relatively few schools warp how we view most of college athletics. Seems like we are trying to force two very different things into the same arena and it makes no sense to do so.

Unless the argument now is "well the money made us realize we have been kidding ourselves for decades pretending these sports were good for students, community, and alumni - I guess we'll stop now". I doubt this is the case.

 

[Perd Hapley]

The dirty little secret to all of this is that even football loses money in just about every scenario when you account for all the true, hidden costs (NIL contributions).

Take that Alabama financial statement that was shared not long ago. They showed $83 million in revenue and $87 million in expenses for “Non program specific costs”. That appears to be two separate things, but it’s really just boosters paying players using the university collective as an intermediary. For all intents and purposes, it’s just a 2-way transaction. If college sports was a normal business, it would show up as -$80ish million in labor costs. But because of the sheer ridiculousness of the universities essentially being able to outsource their labor costs and a lot of their facilities upgrades and other infrastructure costs to wealthy donors, it gets masked to appear as a bigger “profit”.

Then you had football showing a $65 million profit, which just so happened to be almost exactly equal to the TV payout. If you were to add up ALL the money both coming in and going out from the university athletics department AND key related stakeholders like boosters and NIL donors, Alabama athletics would have legitimately lost $10-$20 million as a whole, with a large amount of that loss attributed to football. Instead, since they don’t technically have to count their enormous labor cost due to it essentially being free money, they get to show $60-$70 million in profit. It’s the dumbest thing.

 

[paindonthurt]

I'm fine with college football being run as a business bc of the giant market that's developed bc of it. Just have someone run it like an NFL commish would and keep it out of most of the rest of college sports which has the vast majority of its history as not being viewed as a profit center.

The non-revenue sports have largely been a money pit (duh) rationalized by intangible value created for student body and community. Did that view change or are we letting a very profitable sport for relatively few schools warp how we view most of college athletics. Seems like we are trying to force two very different things into the same arena and it makes no sense to do so.

Unless the argument now is "well the money made us realize we have been kidding ourselves for decades pretending these sports were good for students, community, and alumni - I guess we'll stop now". I doubt this is the case.

Just curious but why should the profit making sports be any different than the non profit making sports?

 

[Bulldog45]

Anyone that has ever owned a swimming pool is not at all surprised by this.

SEC should do the equivalent of cross country track for swimming and diving and just take them to a local lake.

 

[615dawg]

Just curious but why should the profit making sports be any different than the non profit making sports?

That is an extremely complicated question.

The state's HBCUs (sans Jackson State who got a revenue boost with Deion and sells out the Vet), Delta State and Southern Miss are about to have to make some hard decisions. Mississippi College dropped football because of a $9 million deficit, which is way less than a lot of schools.

The junior colleges use sports to attract students. Most JUCO athletes would not be there if not for sports. Most of them lose money, but it's not a lot because travel is mainly in state, with occasional travel to border states. Not as expensive to throw kids on the bus from Scooba to Fulton or Senatobia to Summitt as it is to fly a 25-member party (players, coaches, support staff) for volleyball to a conference game charter.

Those expenses are adding up fast for schools. USM getting in the Sun Belt helped bring down some travel costs, as ULM, ULL, South Alabama and Louisiana Tech are manageable road games for all sports. The reason the HBCUs have so many historic classics is that splitting the gate at the Liberty Bowl brings in more revenue than selling out their home stadiums.

There are just too many schools going into massive debt for the prestige of being D1. And the taxpayers are subsidixing it. No one has a problem if Alabama loses money - it's made up elsewhere. But North Alabama losing $25 million - taxpayers are footing the bill. And there are some state legislatures that are noticing. Everyone is waiting on the court cases, but I bet you see 30% or more of Olympic sports teams at D1 colleges ended in the next five years.

 

[ckDOG]

Just curious but why should the profit making sports be any different than the non profit making sports?

Fair question.

One environment now exists to profit those that have invested and taken risks. Infrastructure isn't free. Tv networks aren't free and on. It stands to reason the core entertainment would demand compensation helping others make some coin. They should be compensated as the market commands. Or else they walk and the product suffers and less profit can be generated.

The loss sports behave more like a service to students (and others like community/alumni, to recruit students, provided a "well rounded" experience and on). Some SA's get a nice gig with scholarships provided but many (most?) are there because they enjoy it and receive the benefit of facilities and coaching. You could replace these students with other students and you'd still have a loss sport. Hell, you could argue these students could be charged extra for the added experience and assets they are afforded.

 

[615dawg]

Hell, you could argue these students could be charged extra for the added experience and assets they are afforded.

Flying close to the sun there in figuring out the real solution.

I have a family friend who has an Olympic sport athlete at an SEC school. Talented and better than most, but a benchwarmer in the SEC.

Full scholarship
Room and Board stipend
Books
$5k a month NIL with no requirements other than being on the team

A good gig if you can get it, but It is simply not sustainable.

 

[HotMop]

Ever wonder why State and Ole Miss are the only SEC schools without swimming? Goodness. Something is going to have to give on the Olympic sports - too much money being lost by everyone. I expect smaller rosters and even some sports cuts. Marshall just cut swimming a week before their conference championship.

I think State does this well. We are at the minimum for Division I sports but the athletic department turned a small profit (about $200k) last year. Florida State, for example, has a $437 million deficit. Football isn't going to cut into that. I figure they will be hunting for SEC/B1G money sooner rather than later.

Would make sense to drop track and field and pick up gymnastics. Because, gymnasts.

 

[paindonthurt]

Fair question.

One environment now exists to profit those that have invested and taken risks. Infrastructure isn't free. Tv networks aren't free and on. It stands to reason the core entertainment would demand compensation helping others make some coin. They should be compensated as the market commands. Or else they walk and the product suffers and less profit can be generated.

The loss sports behave more like a service to students (and others like community/alumni, to recruit students, provided a "well rounded" experience and on). Some SA's get a nice gig with scholarships provided but many (most?) are there because they enjoy it and receive the benefit of facilities and coaching. You could replace these students with other students and you'd still have a loss sport. Hell, you could argue these students could be charged extra for the added experience and assets they are afforded.

As long as people are being consistent I’m fine with it.

But if someone thinks football players should be paid their fair share, they should also be ok with other sports being terminated bc they are losing money.

 

[ckDOG]

As long as people are being consistent I’m fine with it.

But if someone thinks football players should be paid their fair share, they should also be ok with other sports being terminated bc they are losing money.

I don't have an issue with the decision to cut a sport bc they are losing money. At some point it's expected to stop losing money or to question the intangible value that the investment might provide.

I mainly question why it's a hot topic now - after all these years and with college sports being a unique part of American culture (you don't really see this scope of college sports elsewhere) . Schools have been losing money on these sports for a long time and rationalized it for reasons I have stated. I'd hate to see them find an excuse to cut them now not for financial prudence but to be able to throw more dollars at a singular sport that's currently very lucrative and ultra competitive. I get the emotions pointing schools that way but seems like we are discussing bailing on what they used to hold as values to go all in on one thing.

 

[Perd Hapley]

I don't have an issue with the decision to cut a sport bc they are losing money. At some point it's expected to stop losing money or to question the intangible value that the investment might provide.

I mainly question why it's a hot topic now - after all these years and with college sports being a unique part of American culture (you don't really see this scope of college sports elsewhere) . Schools have been losing money on these sports for a long time and rationalized it for reasons I have stated. I'd hate to see them find an excuse to cut them now not for financial prudence but to be able to throw more dollars at a singular sport that's currently very lucrative and ultra competitive. I get the emotions pointing schools that way but seems like we are discussing bailing on what they used to hold as values to go all in on one thing.

Agreed. The ultimate problem is that if you cut sports that lose money, you have to cut every sport, including football…..IF you are truly taking all the money into consideration.

Say swimming loses $1 million per year. Well, if you had even 5% of the football amount of NIL donations to collectives going to swimming….suddenly swimming is now making like $2 million per year in profit.

There’s a widespread myth that “football pays for everything”. It’s false, because football doesn’t generate profit. It generates cash flow. There’s a difference.

 

[paindonthurt]

I don't have an issue with the decision to cut a sport bc they are losing money. At some point it's expected to stop losing money or to question the intangible value that the investment might provide.

I mainly question why it's a hot topic now - after all these years and with college sports being a unique part of American culture (you don't really see this scope of college sports elsewhere) . Schools have been losing money on these sports for a long time and rationalized it for reasons I have stated. I'd hate to see them find an excuse to cut them now not for financial prudence but to be able to throw more dollars at a singular sport that's currently very lucrative and ultra competitive. I get the emotions pointing schools that way but seems like we are discussing bailing on what they used to hold as values to go all in on one thing.

It’s an issue now bc football subsidized all of those sports bc title IX basically forced that.

Now with players making their “fair share” there isn’t as much money left over to subsidize the sports losing money.

The math ain’t mathing.

 

[paindonthurt]

Agreed. The ultimate problem is that if you cut sports that lose money, you have to cut every sport, including football…..IF you are truly taking all the money into consideration.

Say swimming loses $1 million per year. Well, if you had even 5% of the football amount of NIL donations to collectives going to swimming….suddenly swimming is now making like $2 million per year in profit.

There’s a widespread myth that “football pays for everything”. It’s false, because football doesn’t generate profit. It generates cash flow. There’s a difference.

wtf are you talking about? You can’t have cash flow without having a profit unless you are depreciating a bunch of stuff or taking out loans as part of the cash flow.

football 100% pays for the other sports. Well it did prior to NIL.

 

[Perd Hapley]

wtf are you talking about? You can’t have cash flow without having a profit unless you are depreciating a bunch of stuff or taking out loans as part of the cash flow.

In a normal business, you’d be correct.

Not in college sports though. You have donations that essentially amount to the full labor cost for your employees. They aren’t on the books like they would be for a normal business. The university doesn’t truly generate that revenue. It’s handed to them and then handed out to the athletes.

It’d be like if 10 billionaires all liked their Verizon cell phone service so much, they essentially decided to collectively cover 95% of the salary, the 401k match, and the health insurance for every Verizon store employee that’s just shilling out new phones to folks. They do this out of the goodness of their hearts directly. Instead of showing the full 100% labor / benefits cost on their books, Verizon only shows 5% of it, and their profits are thus astronomically higher. But it’s not reality when you look at the true total cost of running the business.