Covid and vaccinations

[TTU/UK fan]

Keep showing that civility you mentioned, sport.

In all honesty though, do you believe it is morally and/or constitutionally right for certain groups to be targeted to be forced to take vaccines? I mean those crossing the border are just freely released, but if you are an American taxpayer at a large private company, you must be vaccinated, tested weekly or lose your job. But an illegal can come in, get hired on at a place that hires less than 100 people and not do any of that. How,as an American can you conciously not speak out about such gross misconduct of Government? Simply excusing it and not having an opinion on the matter is the answer I am expecting.

But it is getting scary. If you are okay with it now, how will you feel when someone you politically disagree with uses the same bounds to force things you do not support? I would guess you will be here caring about the constitution at that point.

 

[TCurtis75_rivals88839]

In all honesty though, do you believe it is morally and/or constitutionally right for certain groups to be targeted to be forced to take vaccines? I mean those crossing the border are just freely released, but if you are an American taxpayer at a large private company, you must be vaccinated, tested weekly or lose your job. But an illegal can come in, get hired on at a place that hires less than 100 people and not do any of that. How,as an American can you conciously not speak out about such gross misconduct of Government? Simply excusing it and not having an opinion on the matter is the answer I am expecting.

But it is getting scary. If you are okay with it now, how will you feel when someone you politically disagree with uses the same bounds to force things you do not support? I would guess you will be here caring about the constitution at that point.

I haven't said whether I agree with it or not. I'm not going to say whether I agree with it or not. I will say that I do not agree with everything Biden is doing or has done. I haven't agreed with any president completely. That doesn't mean that I don't think he was the better choice for president over Trump. I do even if I don't agree with some of what he has done.

Don't think that Republicans wouldn't do the same thing to force items through that the left doesn't agree with. They did it under Trump. They did it before Trump when Mitch refused to consider Merrick Garland for SCOTUS. I don't agree with it when either party does it. That is the problem with a two party dominated system. Gone are the days that either party cares about the constituents. They only care about the next big donor and how to make them happy to get a larger donation and bank account.

 

[TTU/UK fan]

I haven't said whether I agree with it or not. I'm not going to say whether I agree with it or not. I will say that I do not agree with everything Biden is doing or has done. I haven't agreed with any president completely. That doesn't mean that I don't think he was the better choice for president over Trump. I do even if I don't agree with some of what he has done.

Don't think that Republicans wouldn't do the same thing to force items through that the left doesn't agree with. They did it under Trump. They did it before Trump when Mitch refused to consider Merrick Garland for SCOTUS. I don't agree with it when either party does it. That is the problem with a two party dominated system. Gone are the days that either party cares about the constituents. They only care about the next big donor and how to make them happy to get a larger donation and bank account.

Kind of the typical political spill. You'd do good in Washington.

 

[TCurtis75_rivals88839]

Kind of the typical political spill. You'd do good in Washington.

Were you ok when the right had the power and did the same things that Biden is doing? If you were ok with it then because it was your party and what you wanted, then you have no room to gripe now. You can’t have it both ways.

 

[TTU/UK fan]

Were you ok when the right had the power and did the same things that Biden is doing? If you were ok with it then because it was your party and what you wanted, then you have no room to gripe now. You can’t have it both ways.

First of all we are talking about an issue right now before our eyes. An issue that could forever reshape what the federal govt has the authority to do. Shifting the topic is bush league.

Also, I cannot recall a President on the right using executive powers to force 100M adults to do, medically, something they do not want to do. Nothing anywhere near this has been done. Want to know the problem? What if Trump, who you dislike. gets elected back again and decides everyone should take hydroxychloroquine because he says it can save lives. What is the left's argument then? Realize the issue here, yet? Dont push this off like it's just another small issue of govt overreach. This is huge.

 

[TCurtis75_rivals88839]

First of all we are talking about an issue right now before our eyes. An issue that could forever reshape what the federal govt has the authority to do. Shifting the topic is bush league.

Also, I cannot recall a President on the right using executive powers to force 100M adults to do, medically, something they do not want to do. Nothing anywhere near this has been done. Want to know the problem? What if Trump, who you dislike. gets elected back again and decides everyone should take hydroxychloroquine because he says it can save lives. What is the left's argument then? Realize the issue here, yet? Dont push this off like it's just another small issue of govt overreach. This is huge.

So you are ok with it when the right does it. Got it.

 

[TTU/UK fan]

So you are ok with it when the right does it. Got it

Your lack of response tells me enough.

 

[jameslee32]

 

[TTU/UK fan]

I answered your question initially. You failed to answer mine. Well you tried to but that attempt to evade was an answer. It’s ok. It really is. You can be a hypocrite. My opinion of you can’t get any lower.

You gave no real answer and have shifted every question into another question to me. I think theres a word for that. You have been backed into a corner and have no real defense beside deflection.

You can have a low opinion of me for whatever reason. I do not draw conclusions about people over the internet. I just hope you care about what is happening before you are the one it negatively affects. Didnt you just tell that other guy he is rude and calls people names? Maybe should hold off on calling me the hypocrite.

 

[IdaCat]

I didn’t preach about being civil. I said him doing so based on his posting history was comical. There’s a big difference between those two things.

You're a blind partisan and won't say what you think about it. Understood.

Anybody else care to explain it?

 

[TCurtis75_rivals88839]

You're a blind partisan and won't say what you think about it. Understood.

Anybody else care to explain it?

I did say what I think. I don’t agree with all Biden has done. I have and do vote for republicans or libertarians when I feel like they are the best candidate. I don’t like when politicians (regardless of party) use their position to promote their own self interests or party’s interest over the interests of the people they serve and represent. You on the other hand toe the Republican line and think all on the left are evil scum (I think that is how you referred to them). That is the definition of partisan. You get so blinded by your hate that you refuse to see that while they may not have all the same beliefs you do, people on the left are doing what they think is best even if you don’t agree. That’s all we can ask out of anyone.

 

[TCurtis75_rivals88839]

He’s a troll, his goal is to get people to keep posting,

K

 

[Deeeefense]

I think this discussion would have more value if those claiming things that are "scientifically proven" provide a link from a reputable organization or scientific journal that supports what they are saying. The fact that some agenda driven journalist quotes some scientifically sounding organization of some so-called "fact" is proof of nothing.

 

[Gassy_Knowls]

I think this discussion would have more value if those claiming things that are "scientifically proven" provide a link from a reputable organization or scientific journal that supports what they are saying. The fact that some agenda driven journalist quotes some scientifically sounding organization of some so-called "fact" is proof of nothing.

Deeee, real science has left the building. Gone. It's now political. Nice try tho.

 

[Deeeefense]

Try to keep your debating civil, no need to attack or argue with others. Lots of different opinions and ideas about this and every member has a right to express his/her opinion. Thanks.

 

[Bill Derington]

I think this discussion would have more value if those claiming things that are "scientifically proven" provide a link from a reputable organization or scientific journal that supports what they are saying. The fact that some agenda driven journalist quotes some scientifically sounding organization of some so-called "fact" is proof of nothing.

Did you delete my post?

 

[Deeeefense]

Did you delete my post?

I deleted a lot of posts that were apart of arguing and name calling.

 

[Bill Derington]

I deleted a lot of posts that were apart of arguing and name calling.

Yet allow clear trolling, it’s a shame, most of the decent posters that actually were interested in discussion left due to it.

 

[Deeeefense]

Yet allow clear trolling, it’s a shame, most of the decent posters that actually were interested in discussion left due to it.

Because an opinion differs from yours or a majority of members participating in thread is not the definition of tolling. If you believe someone is guilty of trolling submit a report - I know you can do this because I see other reports that you've made to us in the past and we appreciate that. We will evaluate any alleged offense and act appropriately. Thanks.

 

[jameslee32]

I think this discussion would have more value if those claiming things that are "scientifically proven" provide a link from a reputable organization or scientific journal that supports what they are saying. The fact that some agenda driven journalist quotes some scientifically sounding organization of some so-called "fact" is proof of nothing.

 

[SDC888]

Because an opinion differs from yours or a majority of members participating in thread is not the definition of tolling. If you believe someone is guilty of trolling submit a report - I know you can do this because I see other reports that you've made to us in the past and we appreciate that. We will evaluate any alleged offense and act appropriately. Thanks.

He's trolling because he doesn't care to make an honest good faith effort at actual dialogue, not simply because he disagrees with people. Maybe because you side with him that's not clear to you, but it's very obvious, and the intent is likely simply to derail the thread. That is indeed the definition of trolling.

Not that I actually care about his trolling, but let's be real here.

Ivermectin is a real human drug, not experimental, and not just prescribed by quacks. It may or may not be effective as a prophylactic or when given early for the treatment of Covid. Ofcourse some idiots somewhere are going to do stupid things.

 

[American Dragon]

Sad seeing all these conservatives in this world rather see people get infected with a disease that has killed 4.6 million people worldwide than take a vaccine that has been proven time and time again by both scienece and real-life data/experience to be the most effective solution to getting this virus under control.

I thought y'all were supposed to be pro-life? So why is it that you are spreading lies that lead to more death, more hospitalizations, more suffering, more financial catastrophe for those that get hospitalized? Explain to me how that's a pro-life stance? Sounds more like a pro-death and human suffering stance.

I thought y'all were supposed to be the anti-COVID faction? So why are y'all spreading lies and committing actions that's allowing the virus to thrive more? THat sounds more like a pro-COVID stance to me.

 

[gracetoyou]

That doesn't mean that the vaccine doesn't provide benefit to those who were previously infected. You are changing your statement. In your initial post, you stated previously infected and those they come in contact with do not benefit from the vaccine. You do not know that because you yourself admitted that tests on that haven't been done much to prove that. It also hasn't disproved it either which means you saying previously infected won't benefit from the vaccine is your opinion that you are trying to pass as fact. Saying they shouldn't have mandated vaccines is a completely different argument than saying they won't benefit from the vaccine. Keep moving the goal posts all you want. That doesn't change what you initially said.

You're not understanding what he is saying. He is NOT saying the vaccine cannot provide extra boost. He's saying it's stupid to mandate those individuals to get an extra boost since their likelihood of getting covid & dying is very low.

A recent study in Israel concludes those who have been infected before have greater immunity than those who have never been infected but are fully vaccinated.

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/ar...ind-of-immunity-offers-the-highest-protection

"The findings appear to indicate increased protection from natural immunity over vaccine-conferred immunity. This may be due to a more extensive immune response to the SARS-CoV-2 proteins, compared with the immune activation provided by the vaccine, the researchers suggest."


And it also concludes that those are have been infected previously do indeed gain extra immunity from one dose...2 is not needed. But let those individuals make that choice since they are better off than the non-infevmcted fully-vaccinated.

 

[SDC888]

Sad seeing all these conservatives in this world rather see people get infected with a disease that has killed 4.6 million people worldwide than take a vaccine that has been proven time and time again by both scienece and real-life data/experience to be the most effective solution to getting this virus under control.

I thought y'all were supposed to be pro-life? So why is it that you are spreading lies that lead to more death, more hospitalizations, more suffering, more financial catastrophe for those that get hospitalized? Explain to me how that's a pro-life stance? Sounds more like a pro-death and human suffering stance.

I thought y'all were supposed to be the anti-COVID faction? So why are y'all spreading lies and committing actions that's allowing the virus to thrive more? THat sounds more like a pro-COVID stance to me.

You conflate being pro-liberty as being pro-disease, just trying to rationalize yourself as being morally superior to coat over all your immoral positions.

 

[Nightwish84]

He's trolling because he doesn't care to make an honest good faith effort at actual dialogue, not simply because he disagrees with people. Maybe because you side with him that's not clear to you, but it's very obvious, and the intent is likely simply to derail the thread. That is indeed the definition of trolling.

Not that I actually care about his trolling, but let's be real here.

Ivermectin is a real human drug, not experimental, and not just prescribed by quacks. It may or may not be effective as a prophylactic or when given early for the treatment of Covid. Ofcourse some idiots somewhere are going to do stupid things.

With all due respect, he's not trolling and has answered many of your responses. Ida posted a political clip that doesn't make Team Biden look good and practically begged democrats to respond. Curtis continued to post and didn't put forth the seething "I hate Biden grrr" response many here were hoping for. That doesn't make him a troll. Heck, I've had Ida randomly come at me in threads and call me sheep and this and that. Non-political threads mind you. You all really don't need to circle the wagons with the troll stuff just because he's not giving you the responses you want.

As far as Ivermectin goes, I don't really care one way or another. If some docs are prescribing it, so be it. I do think it's odd that a few here almost seem offended if the word experimental is attached to Ivermectin, but alright with experimental being attached to the actual vaccines that have helped millions.

Anyway, just my take. It's game day so my plan isn't to be here all day. Just thought the "he's a troll, let's get him" stuff was silly.

 

[TCurtis75_rivals88839]

You're not understanding what he is saying. He is NOT saying the vaccine cannot provide extra boost. He's saying it's stupid to mandate those individuals to get an extra boost since their likelihood of getting covid & dying is very low.

A recent study in Israel concludes those who have been infected before have greater immunity than those who have never been infected but are fully vaccinated.

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/ar...ind-of-immunity-offers-the-highest-protection

"The findings appear to indicate increased protection from natural immunity over vaccine-conferred immunity. This may be due to a more extensive immune response to the SARS-CoV-2 proteins, compared with the immune activation provided by the vaccine, the researchers suggest."


And it also concludes that those are have been infected previously do indeed gain extra immunity from one dose...2 is not needed. But let those individuals make that choice since they are better off than the non-infevmcted fully-vaccinated.

He literally said the vaccine provides no benefit to those who already had it.

 

[SDC888]

He literally said the vaccine provides no benefit to those who already had it.

They provide no tangible benefit for the average person.

A vaccine after a natural infection that produced a robust immune response is just going to temporarily increase antibody levels in your blood. Unless you are old or immunocompromised, that's unlikely to be the difference between reinfection or not - certainly not the difference between severe disease and not.

This comes at the cost of increased risk of adverse reaction for no appreciable benefit wrt to immunity.

You quibble semantics because you are a troll with no real interest in substantive discourse.

 

[TCurtis75_rivals88839]

They provide no tangible benefit for the average person.

A vaccine after a natural infection that produced a robust immune response is just going to temporarily increase antibody levels in your blood. Unless you are old or immunocompromised, that's unlikely to be the difference between reinfection or not - certainly not the difference between severe disease and not.

This comes at the cost of increased risk of adverse reaction for no appreciable benefit wrt to immunity.

You quibble semantics because you are a troll with no real interest in substantive discourse.

That’s simply false. What you just said is completely different than what he said. I’ve only tried to have discourse in this thread. I’ve answered every question (even if you didn’t like my answer) and have only posted when I’ve been replied to directly or been brought into the discussion somehow. You on the other hand have repeatedly resorted to name calling and harassment of those who dare disagree with you. One of us might be a troll but it certainly isn’t me. You aren’t nearly as omnipotent as you think you are.

 

[SDC888]

That’s simply false. What you just said is completely different than what he said. I’ve only tried to have discourse in this thread. I’ve answered every question (even if you didn’t like my answer) and have only posted when I’ve been replied to directly or been brought into the discussion somehow. You on the other hand have repeatedly resorted to name calling and harassment of those who dare disagree with you. One of us might be a troll but it certainly isn’t me. You aren’t nearly as omnipotent as you think you are.

It's not like that man.

I do think you're trolling, yes, and won't engage in semantic games with you. I'm not here to harass or call you names, but if you post something dumb, I will tell you so. It's not to just to be mean or just me not liking what you have to say, and it's not unprovoked, as it were.

Let's say you aren't trolling... from my perspective, and I genuinely believe this, idacat/TTU were just trying to figure out for themselves how a leftie would rationalize their wholehearted support for vacccine mandating most Americans while not including illegal immigrants in that mandate. If you don't care to answer, or just don't want to put up with the potential of idacat being mean to you, then alright. Why not just say so and leave it at that? Instead you went into whataboutism and "your side is just as bad as my side," which does nothing to promote good dialogue.

 

[TCurtis75_rivals88839]

It's not like that man.

I do think you're trolling, yes, and won't engage in semantic games with you. I'm not here to harass or call you names, but if you post something dumb, I will tell you so. It's not to just to be mean or just me not liking what you have to say, and it's not unprovoked, as it were.

Let's say you aren't trolling... from my perspective, and I genuinely believe this, idacat/TTU were just trying to figure out for themselves how a leftie would rationalize their wholehearted support for vacccine mandating most Americans while not including illegal immigrants in that mandate. If you don't care to answer, or just don't want to put up with the potential of idacat being mean to you, then alright. Why not just say so and leave it at that? Instead you went into whataboutism and "your side is just as bad as my side," which does nothing to promote good dialogue.

Of course it promotes good dialogue. What is the point of having dialogue with anyone who’s viewpoint is it’s ok for my side to do it but not ok for your side to do it? I want to know if the person I’m talking to is consistent or has different standards for different people. And I did answer the question even if it wasn’t the answer you wanted. I never said I supported mandated vaccines. You just assumed I support them because im a “leftie”. That is a problem created by your own biases. IdaCat wasn’t being mean to me. He was doing ever in his power to do what you accuse me of which is troll by resorting to name calling and personal insults (which he generally wasn’t good at). Tell me how those actions promote good dialogue but my asking honest questions doesn’t.

 

[CastleRubric]

Shots are shots regardless of their long-term effectiveness & need for more. 206M in US have at least one shot. That's all.

well - these injections aren’t at all the same concept or methods everyone’s used to with flu shots and other vaccines - they really are a new approach ....and the Rush of it all has hampered what could have been really good data collection too

we’ve never mass injected tens of millions of people with a concoction that forces your mrna to take such specific actions - were in uncharted territory and i hope we see the various political/government entities take a step back and just Pause everything for a while

I’m almost certain we WONT see that happen - but it would be nice and purposeful

has anyone seen any peer reviewed publications getting logged regarding the various injections and their side effects?

i’ll go hunting for something like that tonight as well -

 

[CastleRubric]

How would you know? You’re deeply entrenched in one of the partisan cults.

Anything that fits the conservative narrative is totally true, anything against is “fake news.” The other side y’all hate so much is the exact same way.

one thing i’ve found helpful is to really try and get a good working grasp of history - all kinds of history

with a healthy grasp on a wide range of historical events you’ll have a sense of precedent and tendencies -

it’ll help illuminate media reporting somewhat because you’ll be better able to identify events that “rhyme” or otherwise align with stuff humans have done before -

because we DO a lot of repetition really

monied interests exerting influence and control -
the revolutionary cycles in politics

history helps make sense of media IMO

also - set up a really good matrix of news sources
get reports from geographic regions around the planet
get updates from the large political entities like the UN, the WHO and NATO -

make sure you check the media releases from our various department level USG organs (DoD, HUD, etc)

filter the online newspapers from major cities and smaller regional towns -

Check out what the vatican, IMF and world bank are saying

and add alternative media from varying political POVs

Use the old wholesale media sites like reuters / ITAR-TASS (i think that’s sputnik now?)

some days you should just sweep though your matrix and see how many of those disparate sites are all repeating the same 4-5 stories

who is reporting stories that others are ignoring?

are you noticing relevant US stories that are ONLY showing up in overseas outlets?


....it’s a useful approach for me anyway

 

[American Dragon]

I lol at this notion that a vaccine requiring a booster shot and/or multiple shots means it doesn't work.

The following vaccines require multiple shots or booster shots, either as a child or an adult. This isn't even including the flu vaccine

• Varicella
• Shingles
• Pneumonia
• HPV - 3 series vaccine
• MMR
• Pnenumococcal conjugate - 4 series vaccine
• Hepatitis A
• Hepatitis B - 3 series vaccine, potentially 4 series
• Heamophilus influenza type B - can be as many as 3
• Zoster
• Rotavirus
• Diptheria - 4 series vaccine
• Polio - 4 series vaccine
• DTap (yes, different from Tdap) - 5 series vaccine

The Tdap vaccine is actually supposed to be done once every 10 years, once for each pregnancy, and once for wound management if it has been more than five years since receiving a dose.

Do all these vaccines also not work?

 

[SDC888]

Do all these vaccines also not work?

They do work, yes... by and large, they provide immunity.

Your biannual covid booster is just going to give you some protection, which may or may not be necessary to the indvidual. Therefore, it should be up to him/her to decide in consultation with their physician.

Not you.

 

[American Dragon]

They do work, yes... by and large, they provide immunity.

Your biannual covid booster is just going to give you some protection, which may or may not be necessary to the indvidual. Therefore, it should be up to him/her to decide in consultation with their physician.

Not you.

lol way to go on a tangent to try to justify your usual stream of lies and deceit

 

[SDC888]

lol way to go on a tangent to try to justify your usual stream of lies and deceit

haha, thanks for the raff

you really made my day!

 

[BBBLazing]

I think this discussion would have more value if those claiming things that are "scientifically proven" provide a link from a reputable organization or scientific journal that supports what they are saying. The fact that some agenda driven journalist quotes some scientifically sounding organization of some so-called "fact" is proof of nothing.

https://hub.jhu.edu/2021/06/09/vaccines-mandatory-for-hopkins-faculty-staff/

 

[sambowieshin_rivals]

DISCLAIMER: I'm not anti-vaccine!!

With that said:

#1 Not a very good comparison...at all. Required vaccinations are usually due to having a vaccine that stops the illness. When that's not the case they are usually elective...flu vaccine.

#2 There are issues in REAL SCIENCE no matter how much is said to the contrary that might give someone at least the pause & right to think & choose for themselves. A recent peer-reviewed study published August 9 in the Journal of Infection:
LINK:

https://www.journalofinfection.com/article/S0163-4453(21)00392-3/fulltext#relatedArticles

Highlights​

• •
  Infection-enhancing antibodies have been detected in symptomatic Covid-19.
• •
  Antibody dependent enhancement (ADE) is a potential concern for vaccines.
• •
  Enhancing antibodies recognize both the Wuhan strain and delta variants.
• •
  ADE of delta variants is a potential risk for current vaccines.
• •
  Vaccine formulations lacking ADE epitope are suggested.

Conclusion...new vaccine development is needed ASAP.

Like the poster said you responded to, if vaccinated people get & transmit COVID...its not in the public interest that one is vaccinated. However, it's CERTAINLY in the personal interest one get vaccinated.

It's also in the public interest that our hospital ERs and ICUs are not completely overrun and unable to properly care for heart attack victims, car wrecks and stroke patients because of all the foolish spreadnecks that are clogging up our healthcare system and refusing to get vaxxed.

 

[jameslee32]

 

[jameslee32]

On his old TV show, Bob Enyart Live, the host would “gleefully read obituaries of AIDS sufferers while cranking ‘Another One Bites the Dust’ by Queen,” Westword reported.