Why would people who have practically no chance of dying from Covid need an experimental vaccine? Especially if it’s their choice?
And how hard is it, exactly, to understand the difference in an “anti-vaxxer” and a person who would like more data?
Covid and vaccinations
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Why would people who have practically no chance of dying from Covid need an experimental vaccine? Especially if it’s their choice?
And how hard is it, exactly, to understand the difference in an “anti-vaxxer” and a person who would like more data?
i think the alignment of linking a genetic injection (new thing that’s never been done before) - with whether a person allowed to access traditional public outlets like stores / whatever —- certainly rang familiar with anyone who ever read the infamous 13th chapter of Revelation (describes a mark placed inside a person’s right hand or forehead that dictates whether they are allowed to “buy trade or sell”)
i have my convictions on the topic but won’t belabor the point here
The suddenly surreal and overwhelmingly militant responses to this situation naturally prompted folks to make the MOTB references
So i cant blame anyone i guess - this is a remarkable phenomenon and it seems to be occurring in synch with other very significant changes in the world -
i do remember someone explaining to me how bad codes , eating meat, worshiping on sunday and “ being white “ we’re ALL - the mark of da beast too
THOSE instances i had less patience with
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it is kind of funny how most americans- across many population types - kind of grew out of smoking tobacco
seems like there’s probably a lesson in there somewhere
i smoked marlboros for about 8-10 years and generally about a pack a day
it took 8 quit attempts before i fully kicked it
it was easier for me getting away from cocaine than it was tobacco
and cocaine IS ...a hell of a drug
He’s pretty much saying I think level headed people, who believe others should be able to make decisions for themselves based on their current health and associated risks are stupid. Such an idiotic and shallow statement.
The medical community and FDA are clueless on how to deal with healthy people. They’re trained to make money off the unhealthy.
Nice attempt at a strawman argument, but your purported "logic" is unavailing. The three groups you described above are more likely to have chronic health conditions. What we're talking about with Covid patients with acute symptoms in sufficient numbers that they can overwhelm the health system. Acute versus chronic. Learn the distinction. In sum, your argument didn't do anything to rebut the point that vaccines are in the public interest as well as personal interest.
Because the “need more data” folks are generally ignoring all the laboratory and real-life data that doesn’t fit their already-made decision.
-the hell are you talking about...I'm not arguing against you, kid. Note the phrase "as well".
-ive noticed the misuse of "strawman" by people who have apparently never studied logic (it's an actual science). What you are accusing me of here is a red herring fallacy...but you'd be wrong there as well.
-im just going to assume I hurt your feelings because you are fat. That's an example of an ad hominem fallacy.
-re: chronic vs acute. As I understand, the vast majority of covid hospitalizations/deaths are of those with chronic conditions (I believe co-morbidities is the buzz word)...so my contention about fat people/smokers/heavy users is more pertinent than first assumed.
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It's because it is way too easy to try to force your thoughts and opinions on everyone else with so many social media outlets. Prior to the internet you only had influence on those you actually had personal contact with via in person or maybe phone. Now you can argue with someone from the other side of the world on a UK message board. The world wide web is quickly becoming the demise of humanity.
-spreadnecks. Ha! I would be willing to bet most of those folks in the ICU have a lot more going on health wise than covid, Sam.
-also you may wanna check vax rates by race/ethnicity in these states. You might be surprised by what you see.
-there is an element/pattern of seasonality in this as well...I assume that's why the stupid republicans in the mountain west/mid west are faring better than the stupid republicans in the Sunbelt. I'm sure there is data available to support this...if one were curious.
-also you may wanna check vax rates by race/ethnicity in these states. You might be surprised by what you see.
-there is an element/pattern of seasonality in this as well...I assume that's why the stupid republicans in the mountain west/mid west are faring better than the stupid republicans in the Sunbelt. I'm sure there is data available to support this...if one were curious.
The thing that over 90% of people who are in the icu with covid have in common is that they are not vaccinated against covid.
that's the point. 6 months ago one could argue that they "want to wait" on the vaccine to see the data. Well, now we've got over 2 billion shots in the arm around the world. They're safe, they're free and they work.
I don't think anybody should be forced by the government to take them. Employers are a different story. That's up to the business. But at this point, anybody not taking the shots is doing so at their own peril and in my opinion is making a poor choice.
The good news is that I don't think we will see a complete overwhelming of the healthcare system due to the delta variant because.... get this. of the vaccine. Once this wave is over, we may have another similar or slightly smaller one in the fall and winter, but we will be pretty darn close to herd immunity by that point. Sad thing is, none of this was necessary. But some folks believe the internet and not their MD. Oh well, looks like we will make it through ok though.
PS: You're right about the seasonality. There is an element of truth for that because folks are forced inside in Florida and other deep south areas due to the heat. The wave is moving north, but it's going to be a much milder wave in the northeast because they've got much higher vaccination rates.
Compare Florida and New York. Despite having about 2 million fewer people than Florida New york has about 2 million more people vaccinated. 10% more of their population that is at virtually no risk of hospitalization because of covid. That moves the needle and spares hospital overcrowding.
Georgia and New Jersey?
Despite Georgia having almost 2 million more people than New Jersey, they have fewer people vaccinated.
Again, while we will see an increase of cases in those spots (we already are) they won't overwhelm the healthcare system like we are seeing in places with very low vaccination rates.
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I was in this camp that I wanted to see if there were any effects from the shot and since there doesn't seem to be any overwhelming long term effect to this point I went last week and got my first dose. It wasn't that I was against vaccines but did have some hesitancy. I decided that the risk of covid outweighed the risk of the vaccine. I don't look down on anyone's decision as it should be their choice and I really don't like either side blasting the other for not seeing things like they do.
Half the these threads sound like a WallStreetBets thread pumping Pfizer.
Response to gocatsgo:
^don't disagree. My entire family is fully vaxxed.
-the icu/hospital system won't be overwhelmed. It wasn't on a large scale during round 1 of the epidemic.
-my larger point is that if we're gonna talk about personal behavior and the effects it has on society...the obesity epidemic has far greater impact/strain on healthcare systems/costs currently and more importantly long term than does covid. If we're going down the road of individual behavior and it's impact on "society"...let's go down that road, not cherry pick. We'd all be better in the long run to do so, no?
-lets not praise NY and NJ prematurely...we saw how that went last time.
^don't disagree. My entire family is fully vaxxed.
-the icu/hospital system won't be overwhelmed. It wasn't on a large scale during round 1 of the epidemic.
-my larger point is that if we're gonna talk about personal behavior and the effects it has on society...the obesity epidemic has far greater impact/strain on healthcare systems/costs currently and more importantly long term than does covid. If we're going down the road of individual behavior and it's impact on "society"...let's go down that road, not cherry pick. We'd all be better in the long run to do so, no?
-lets not praise NY and NJ prematurely...we saw how that went last time.
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Agree 100%. But I also think it's important that we push back against lies. I've said over and over that the absolute DUMBEST thing to do when trying to convince somebody of your point of view is to tell them they are an idiot if they don't agree with you.
We see this from the left wing all of the time. It's on clear display with the vaccine messaging. Andy Dandy is the worst at it.
But I also think objectively. I'm conservative and a republican. Voted for Trump twice. I also think objectively and don't believe that i have to fit my beliefs to the political party I belong to. This trend is bizarre to me. I choose the party based on my beliefs. Most of all, I think objectively and gather my own data and talk to the experts. I don't rely on facebook people I don't know. I'm also fortunate and blessed to have a research background from grad school and know how to read studies.
But most of all I talked to just about every MD I know and they all told me the same thing. "By the time you are eligible, despite your low risk of death from covid, we will know whether or not the risks outweigh the rewards or the rewards outweigh the risks for healthy people getting vaccinated". I was eligible in Mid-March and I felt the data was overwhelming then and it's even more overwhelming now.
People need to see the data. Based on what I've seen here's what we know.
The known serious side effects from the vaccine are the exact same with the virus.
A. Myocarditis
B. Guillain-Barre
C. Blood clots
These are all risks from the vaccine... Guess what, they're also risks from the virus. And the data is clear. You're more likely to get them from the virus from the vaccine. This is being studied closely in kids right now and the data is saying a kid is SIX TIMES more likely to have one of those side effects from the actual virus than the vaccine.
That's what people need to hear. They don't' need to hear " you're an idiot if you don't get vaccinated". They need to see and hear the data.
respectfully, you're comparing two things that have nothing to do with one another.
Obesity has never caused elective procedures to not be able to happen at a hospital. Obesity has never kept visitors from seeing their loved ones at a hospital.
Right now, there are parts of the country where you can't get a colonoscopy because hospitals are so overcrowded due to covid.
I agree, we should try to be more healthy, but that's not what is pushing the healthcare systems in parts of our country to the brink and it never will. A deadly and contagious virus is. And we have a vaccine that will nearly guarantee you that you won't go to the hospital if you get it.
Appreciate the civil discussion.
Maybe those offended by derogatory name calling should voice their opinion to Trump supporters, like those on a political board or something too.
I think most people (and most employers) were patient and respectful with the unvaxxed until this latest wave of unvaxxed clogging up the ICU's. Now we've lost our patience and many employers are now developing mandatory vaccine policies. In other words, the time for trying to reason with them is up for many people. And I don't have any problem with that.
Maybe you should honor their beliefs and wishes and allow them to make their own life altering decisions.
-i get the difference, but *long tem* obesity is the biggest problem we face...and if we're honest covid/obesity are absolutely related... the obese are disproportionately represented in covid deaths/hospitalizations. We have to address the elephant on the room.
-elective procedures were cancelled in preparation for a situation that never materialized on a large scale...not because hospitals were actually overrun. People in charge should get a pass as it was a relatively unknown/unpredictable situation. Hopefully they don't hit the panic button as we have more info now...it would be indefensible at this point.
-re: civil discourse...there are shades of grey with this(as with everything)...but we're at a point that *every* aspect of life is seen through a red or blue lense...empathy/looking at something from someone else's point of view is dead. You're a true believer or you are my enemy. It's sad.
-elective procedures were cancelled in preparation for a situation that never materialized on a large scale...not because hospitals were actually overrun. People in charge should get a pass as it was a relatively unknown/unpredictable situation. Hopefully they don't hit the panic button as we have more info now...it would be indefensible at this point.
-re: civil discourse...there are shades of grey with this(as with everything)...but we're at a point that *every* aspect of life is seen through a red or blue lense...empathy/looking at something from someone else's point of view is dead. You're a true believer or you are my enemy. It's sad.
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I believe in the vaccinations. I’ve taken mine plus a booster. And I feel that some folks are being foolish and careless by ignoring the benefits.
But I also feel more strongly that people should have the right to choose, regardless as to what I believe. And government mandates are evil because the people in charge at least for the last dozen years or so are slimy and dumber that owl ****.
Now back to hating fat people.
But I also feel more strongly that people should have the right to choose, regardless as to what I believe. And government mandates are evil because the people in charge at least for the last dozen years or so are slimy and dumber that owl ****.
Now back to hating fat people.
Are you slow?
I'm not bluebell.
Secondly, half the posts here are "if you don't get the jab, you do so at your own peril!!" It's amazing that every case equals death now.
If you don't get the booster, you will do so at your own peril. And the fourth. And the fifth. And the sixth.
Parts of the country prolly should have not fired unvaxxed nurses during a surge. Houston Methodist fired 153, but you guys made a point.
I thought mixing politics with medical issues was ridiculous but mixing religion with medical issues is insane.
Here's my advise, if you are still unclear or undecided about the COVID vaccine, don't talk to your Congressman, don't talk to your Minister, talk to your friggin DOCTOR.
BTW England, that doesn't have the nonsense and misinformation about vaccines is over 85% vaccinated now and the country is back to normal, while we in the US struggle with the 4th wave.
Here's my advise, if you are still unclear or undecided about the COVID vaccine, don't talk to your Congressman, don't talk to your Minister, talk to your friggin DOCTOR.
BTW England, that doesn't have the nonsense and misinformation about vaccines is over 85% vaccinated now and the country is back to normal, while we in the US struggle with the 4th wave.
I'm sure you think that is true. But that's not why you can't get care. Staffing isn't the issue. Beds are.
Nearly 5 billion shots in arms enough data yet? Didn't think so.
The same england that just finished their wave and has a land mass 25% less than the US state of Missouri?
A wave can move through there quicker than coast to coast USA?
Chicanery.
If you were vaxxed 8 months ago, you are no longer protected from serious illness or death. You have to get your booster now. You are no better than the unvaxxed at that point. Go get your booster you science denier.
I got my second dose in April, so I am still protected. Just not as much as in the days after that second dose. Seems that those that actually understand the science have told us that the protection reduces over time. If it is recommended that I get a third dose in December then I will sign up and line up. Same as I do with my annual flu shot which I’ve scheduled for next month.
I accept the science and I reject the myths and superstitions. I also reject arguments that are laced with hyperbole.
God bless you, and thank for your service.
I look forward to what we learn from this research. I really do.
I look forward to what we learn from this research. I really do.
Beds?
The whole argument this entire time has been that these are highly specialized people and that they are being stretched thin. That there is no way that we can manufacture more of these highly specialized people.
If all it takes is adding beds, just ask Ford and gm to stop making ventilators and make some beds. Maybe Andy can loan some from the mothballed field hospital.
Here's your article blaming beds. They can't blame staffing issues after they let 150 walk. Not one word of anyone overworked. Just beds.
https://www.fox26houston.com/news/p...pital-emergency-rooms-overwhelmed-by-covid-19
The Gastroenterologists that would normally perform that procedure get re-assigned to the ICUs where unvaccinated COVID patients are. They use their equipment and expertise to hunt for and measure brain function.
you still have some protection but it's been reduced to more like 50--60%
I am not offended by it but you lose any credibility in an argument when you act like a little kid by calling people names and acting like they are inferior to you.
Apparently the My Body My Choice only applies when they say it does.
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