Disney

[Beatle Bum]

So this gender issue is confusing and nobody including our loudest mouth radical leftist understands it (admittedly). Yet it still must be taught to young children in schools by left leaning teachers because.....

A fraction of a percent of the population suffers from gender dysphoria, yet the normalization and promotion effort is off the charts. We've already seen the minds of recent generations twisted and confused by this LGBTASDFJKL; nonsense.

There is a societal price to pay for this ****. Yet, the irrational left never thinks past the superficial depth of their bleeding heart feelings about anything. Democrat leaders understand this and use it to divide and maintain a base. Period. It's all they have, and it's disgusting.

Gender dysphoria will increase and no one will admit that social influences played a role. I have a friend who teaches middle school. She says the new anorexia for middle school girls pertains to gender identification. Let’s wait 20 years and see how happy the prepubescent trans kids feel about the fact that they were given blockers and hormones. The medical legal community’s collective head will be spinning.

In the meantime, let’s just agree that kids K-4th don’t need a sex/gender curriculum and that good teachers are those who teach the basics.

 

[Beatle Bum]

Y’all are acting like kids are immune from hearing anything involving homosexuality until middle or high school when we were calling each other f-gs and playing smear the ***** on the playground in first or second grade.

We knew gay meant boys who like boys.

No. No one is acting like the world does not exist in this conversation but you and your strawman. This legislation does not deny kids still have to navigate the world.

 

[MegaBlue05]

No. No one is acting like the world does not exist in this conversation but you and your strawman. This legislation does not deny kids still have to navigate the world.

Did I say it did?

 

[Beatle Bum]

Did I say it did?

Yeah. Ya did by pretending others don’t realize it.

 

[ukcatz12]

A lot to unpack there, thanks for sharing. Gotta say the transgender discussion has me feeling old, as it’s the one I can’t wrap my mind around. I like to think of myself as pretty open minded and moderate but I’m pretty confused by it. I’m finding it difficult for me to not view as a psychological disorder. And I’m not trying to say it negatively, I feel for the people and can’t imagine how difficult it is for them on a daily basis, but it just seems like something is off. To feel like you’re trapped in a body that doesn’t represent your mind just seems like something went haywire and sounds like hell honestly. I remember like five years ago there was this Rachel woman (think her last name started with a D) that was white but was pretending she was black. Remember her? Anyway everyone made fun of her and called her crazy but isn’t that sort of the same thing but swapping out race for gender? Either way thanks for answering, think this is something that’ll probably take me a while to understand or form a solid opinion on.

I just gotta say, you seem to be one of the few in this thread who's asking questions in good faith and seem to be open minded about a topic you're unfamiliar with. Kudos to you.

 

[MegaBlue05]

Yeah. Ya did by pretending others don’t realize it.

Bold assumption, but whatever I suppose.

 

[IdaCat]

Gender dysphoria will increase and no one will admit that social influences played a role. I have a friend who teaches middle school. She says the new anorexia for middle school girls pertains to gender identification. Let’s wait 20 years and see how happy the prepubescent trans kids feel about the fact that they were given blockers and hormones. The medical legal community’s collective head will be spinning.

In the meantime, let’s just agree that kids K-4th don’t need a sex/gender curriculum and that good teachers are those who teach the basics.

My daughter teaches a girls Sunday school class at her church (~14 y/os). She says there are several confused girls who are now demanding to be addressed by they/them, etc. pronouns.

She gets these questions and comments from the girls:

"I'm a girl but I really think I'm a boy so does the fact that I'm attracted to boys mean I'm gay?"

"I think my friend is pretty, does that mean I'm attracted to her?"

"We shouldn't assign a gender to our babies at birth. We should let them pick their gender when they're older."

My daughter says she sees this in her exposure to young girls everywhere now. She tells the girls to discuss it with their parents.

 

[catlanta33]

President Biden's administration has released a series of documents encouraging gender-reassignment surgery and hormone treatments for minors.

The Department of Health and Human Services' Office of Population Affairs released a document Thursday titled "Gender Affirming Care and Young People." The same day, the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration's National Child Traumatic Stress Network – another subset of the HHS – released a parallel document titled, "Gender-Affirming Care Is Trauma-Informed Care."

The HHS documents describe what it calls appropriate treatments for transgender adolescents, including: "'Top' surgery – to create male-typical chest shape or enhance breasts;" and "'Bottom' surgery – surgery on genitals or reproductive organs, facial feminization or other procedures."

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/bi...ender-agenda-youth-sex-change-hormone-therapy

 

[Beatle Bum]

Bold assumption, but whatever I suppose.

Even if we cannot agree, can we agree your bus experiences are not relevant?

 

[JumperJack]

That even if you want to say "it's about biological sex," biological sex is not something with clear boundaries. It's something where the large majority of people fit the category where their genitalia and other physical sex characteristics, their chromosomes, their genes, their hormones, their gene expression and hormone receptors, all align in the same direction and it's easy to say "that person is biologically male" and "that person is biologically female." But there are many different ways that a person doesn't fit neatly into "biological male" and "biological female" (I mentioned those that the thread had discussed). And to simply ask "what is the definition of a woman" is a very hard thing to do in a way that takes all of that into account. Is a person with an X and a Y chromosome (male chromosomes) and with a ****** a woman? Is a person with two X chromosomes (female chromosomes) and a penis a woman?

Going beyond what's in that thread I linked - imo the mind is a much more complex and varied thing than the body. And it makes no sense to me to insist that all minds feat neatly into one of two rigidly defined categories when we know that bodies don't always fit neatly into one of two rigidly defined categories.

We can simplify our model of what sex and gender are by modeling it as only two distinct groups, with everyone placed into one or the other, with the "sex" and "gender" labels always perfectly overlapping. But that's not particularly useful when the entire point of the conversations we're having about sex and gender are about the people who don't neatly fit those groups. I'm just saying it's a lot more complicated than people want to treat it as.

Are these conversations worth upending and destroying the rights of parents? Not to mention the stability of society?

After all, doesn’t every person have things about them that may make them feel outside the norm? Are those things fair game to speak to K-3 kids about?

Nope. Taxpayers don’t bust their asses to pay for a place for “conversations” about the private lives or thoughts of teachers.

 

[lex cath]

My daughter teaches a girls Sunday school class at her church (~14 y/os). She says there are several confused girls who are now demanding to be addressed by they/them, etc. pronouns.

She gets these questions and comments from the girls:

"I'm a girl but I really think I'm a boy so does the fact that I'm attracted to boys mean I'm gay?"

"I think my friend is pretty, does that mean I'm attracted to her?"

"We shouldn't assign a gender to our babies at birth. We should let them pick their gender when they're older."

My daughter says she sees this in her exposure to young girls everywhere now. She tells the girls to discuss it with their parents.

IC tell your daughter to tell the girls to open their bibles to Genesis and read aloud

 

[80 Proof]

I just gotta say, you seem to be one of the few in this thread who's asking questions in good faith and seem to be open minded about a topic you're unfamiliar with. Kudos to you.

I'm not open minded about the topic being discussed between government employees and 6 year olds.

I'd love to understand it better myself, but no matter how it's explained to me it seems to come back to internal conflict with each individual.

At the end of the day, I don't care what anyone does as long as they are not negatively impacting others. Trying to explain such a complicated subject to kids that young is not cool though.

 

[ukcatz12]

The HHS documents describe what it calls appropriate treatments for transgender adolescents, including: "'Top' surgery – to create male-typical chest shape or enhance breasts;" and "'Bottom' surgery – surgery on genitals or reproductive organs, facial feminization or other procedures."

This is not correct at all if you looked at the document. Nowhere does it list what the HHS views as appropriate treatments and the word appropriate does not appear in the document at all. It's simply listing the treatments that exist in the table on page 2. The document is literally just a fact sheet that cites all its sources at the end. It is not suggesting any type of treatment whatsoever.

The surgery section clearly states it is used in adults and on a case-by-case basis in adolescents. In other words, it's a decision for a patient and a doctor to make together and current medical guidelines recommend it for people over 18 and on a limited basis for those between 16-18.

The second document linked in the article is said to "reiterate the same thought process and explanation for minors receiving alterations to their genitalia." but absolutely nowhere in that document does it reference anything about surgery for minors.

The commentary in this FoxNews article in no way matches what the documents issued by HHS actually say.

 

[catlanta33]

This is not correct at all if you looked at the document. Nowhere does it list what the HHS views as appropriate treatments and the word appropriate does not appear in the document at all. It's simply listing the treatments that exist in the table on page 2. The document is literally just a fact sheet that sites all its sources at the end. It is not suggesting any type of treatment whatsoever.

The surgery section clearly states it is used in adults and on a case-by-case basis in adolescents. In other words, it's a decision for a patient and a doctor to make together and current medical guidelines recommend it for people over 18 and on a limited basis for those between 16-18.

The second document linked in the article is said to "reiterate the same thought process and explanation for minors receiving alterations to their genitalia." but absolutely nowhere in that document does it reference anything about surgery for minors.

The commentary in this FoxNews article in no way matches what the documents issued by HHS actually say.

Why are they issuing a fact sheet with inappropriate treatments?

The second is basically telling you to check your privileges. That's groundwork to bring forth more dramatic measures and put labels on people in effort to divide them. I'll be called a bigot at some point simply because I didn't spend enough time or care hard enough about other people's sexual orientation.

Keep working to recognize and shift your own biases and assumptions by continually asking yourself questions about the power and privilege you have based on your own gender identity, sexual orientation, race, provider status, and other aspects of your intersectional identities. Support and challenge your colleagues and collaborative partners to do the same, and build spaces to explore layers of seen and unseen privilege and oppression. Be aware of the impact on you or your colleagues who are providing gender-affirming care and who themselves or whose loved ones hold transgender and gender diverse identities. Acknowledge and honor the weight of witnessing and bearing the pain and anxiety experienced by the children and families served as well as the personal impact.

 

[CatsFanGG24]

This is not correct at all if you looked at the document. Nowhere does it list what the HHS views as appropriate treatments and the word appropriate does not appear in the document at all. It's simply listing the treatments that exist in the table on page 2. The document is literally just a fact sheet that cites all its sources at the end. It is not suggesting any type of treatment whatsoever.

The surgery section clearly states it is used in adults and on a case-by-case basis in adolescents. In other words, it's a decision for a patient and a doctor to make together and current medical guidelines recommend it for people over 18 and on a limited basis for those between 16-18.

The second document linked in the article is said to "reiterate the same thought process and explanation for minors receiving alterations to their genitalia." but absolutely nowhere in that document does it reference anything about surgery for minors.

The commentary in this FoxNews article in no way matches what the documents issued by HHS actually say.

So what are your feelings on the Florida bill being described as "don't say gay"?

Does that commentary in any way match the bill? Does the word gay appear?

 

[vhcat70]

My daughter teaches a girls Sunday school class at her church (~14 y/os). She says there are several confused girls who are now demanding to be addressed by they/them, etc. pronouns.

She gets these questions and comments from the girls:

"I'm a girl but I really think I'm a boy so does the fact that I'm attracted to boys mean I'm gay?"

"I think my friend is pretty, does that mean I'm attracted to her?"

"We shouldn't assign a gender to our babies at birth. We should let them pick their gender when they're older."

My daughter says she sees this in her exposure to young girls everywhere now. She tells the girls to discuss it with their parents.

I don't think I've posted on this thread yet - which is strange because I post on most every thread - but why is this almost always about woman & not men (At least is seems so to me.)?

 

[LowerLevelSeatA]

President Biden's administration has released a series of documents encouraging gender-reassignment surgery and hormone treatments for minors.

The Department of Health and Human Services' Office of Population Affairs released a document Thursday titled "Gender Affirming Care and Young People." The same day, the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration's National Child Traumatic Stress Network – another subset of the HHS – released a parallel document titled, "Gender-Affirming Care Is Trauma-Informed Care."

The HHS documents describe what it calls appropriate treatments for transgender adolescents, including: "'Top' surgery – to create male-typical chest shape or enhance breasts;" and "'Bottom' surgery – surgery on genitals or reproductive organs, facial feminization or other procedures."

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/bi...ender-agenda-youth-sex-change-hormone-therapy

So either Joe Biden believes this junk is ok or he is being run by others (and our country is being run by others) who approve of this junk. Either scenario if I voted for Joe Biden, I think I would be pretty upset, disturbed, and would like my vote back. I don’t believe that anywhere close to 50% of Americans (or whatever % of votes he got) is ok with this.

 

[vhcat70]

That even if you want to say "it's about biological sex," biological sex is not something with clear boundaries. It's something where the large majority of people fit the category where their genitalia and other physical sex characteristics, their chromosomes, their genes, their hormones, their gene expression and hormone receptors, all align in the same direction and it's easy to say "that person is biologically male" and "that person is biologically female." But there are many different ways that a person doesn't fit neatly into "biological male" and "biological female" (I mentioned those that the thread had discussed). And to simply ask "what is the definition of a woman" is a very hard thing to do in a way that takes all of that into account. Is a person with an X and a Y chromosome (male chromosomes) and with a ****** a woman? Is a person with two X chromosomes (female chromosomes) and a penis a woman?

Going beyond what's in that thread I linked - imo the mind is a much more complex and varied thing than the body. And it makes no sense to me to insist that all minds feat neatly into one of two rigidly defined categories when we know that bodies don't always fit neatly into one of two rigidly defined categories.

We can simplify our model of what sex and gender are by modeling it as only two distinct groups, with everyone placed into one or the other, with the "sex" and "gender" labels always perfectly overlapping. But that's not particularly useful when the entire point of the conversations we're having about sex and gender are about the people who don't neatly fit those groups. I'm just saying it's a lot more complicated than people want to treat it as.

Biologically, there are just two sexes, XX & XY. I think that I get that people have some physical characteristics and mental states/designs that don't align with that, but that doesn't change the biology of it for me as I think you state above. Yes, I find that weird but OK, it's their lives, not mine. But that still doesn't mean those folks that believe they are XX but are XY, nor the opposite, get to mingle with XX's as if they are also. That's not discrimination, that's protection of both parties.

 

[ukcatz12]

Biologically, there are just two sexes, XX & XY.

100% not true. There are at least six biological sexes that can result in viable, long term human life.

• X – Roughly 1 in 2,000 to 1 in 5,000 people
• XX – Most common form of female
• XXY – Roughly 1 in 500 to 1 in 1,000 people
• XY – Most common form of male
• XYY – Roughly 1 out of 1,000 people
• XXXY – Roughly 1 in 18,000 to 1 in 50,000 births

Nature has a lot more gray in it than people think it does.

 

[ukcatz12]

So what are your feelings on the Florida bill being described as "don't say gay"?

Does that commentary in any way match the bill? Does the word gay appear?

My feelings on that bill are well documented in this thread. I think it's incredibly too vague and if it was trying to prevent "grooming" it should have been written more precisely to outlaw that type of behavior.

 

[ganner918_rivals60369]

Biologically, there are just two sexes, XX & XY. I think that I get that people have some physical characteristics and mental states/designs that don't align with that, but that doesn't change the biology of it for me as I think you state above. Yes, I find that weird but OK, it's their lives, not mine. But that still doesn't mean those folks that believe they are XX but are XY, nor the opposite, get to mingle with XX's as if they are also. That's not discrimination, that's protection of both parties.

You should read the twitter thread I linked here about why it's not that cut and dry. Your definition will include some people with penises as women. And that's the issue. Any simple definition we choose has examples that don't fit within that definition, because nature isn't as neatly divided as our simplified models of nature make it out to be.

 

[ganner918_rivals60369]

I don't think I've posted on this thread yet - which is strange because I post on most every thread - but why is this almost always about woman & not men (At least is seems so to me.)?

People don't find trans men as threatening, so they don't make a big deal about it. Same sort of reasons people made a bigger deal out of gay men than about lesbians.

 

[PhDcat2018]

I don’t really understand this response. Can you explain what you’re trying to say?

It's unintelligible. There are 2 genders. That's it. Anything else is mental illness. Gender dysphoria.

A lot to unpack there, thanks for sharing. Gotta say the transgender discussion has me feeling old, as it’s the one I can’t wrap my mind around. I like to think of myself as pretty open minded and moderate but I’m pretty confused by it. I’m finding it difficult for me to not view as a psychological disorder. And I’m not trying to say it negatively, I feel for the people and can’t imagine how difficult it is for them on a daily basis, but it just seems like something is off. To feel like you’re trapped in a body that doesn’t represent your mind just seems like something went haywire and sounds like hell honestly. I remember like five years ago there was this Rachel woman (think her last name started with a D) that was white but was pretending she was black. Remember her? Anyway everyone made fun of her and called her crazy but isn’t that sort of the same thing but swapping out race for gender? Either way thanks for answering, think this is something that’ll probably take me a while to understand or form a solid opinion on.

You're correct. It's mentally unstable people. I wish they would seek treatment, and not from a counselor that enables the illness.

 

[WildcatFan1982]

Gender dysphoria will increase and no one will admit that social influences played a role. I have a friend who teaches middle school. She says the new anorexia for middle school girls pertains to gender identification.

So I have a much younger cousin (I'm 39, she is 22). Back when she was in high school there was a 'scandal' in our family because another kid (my Uncles grand daughter from a previous marriage) said she was bisexual and she was in middle school. When hearing this I just said "oh every middle school kid is bisexual" and rolled my eyes. My mom went "well when I was in middle school I wasn't!" and then the aforementioned younger cousin just looked at me and nodded her head.

 

[ganner918_rivals60369]

It's unintelligible. There are 2 genders. That's it. Anything else is mental illness. Gender dysphoria.

You're correct. It's mentally unstable people. I wish they would seek treatment, and not from a counselor that enables the illness.

Medical science has found the most beneficial treatment for gender dysphoria is transition therapy

 

[80 Proof]

Medical science has found the most beneficial treatment for gender dysphoria is transition therapy

What about the people that regret their transition? Is there a term, or any concern for them?

 

[vhcat70]

100% not true. There are at least six biological sexes that can result in viable, long term human life.

• X – Roughly 1 in 2,000 to 1 in 5,000 people
• XX – Most common form of female
• XXY – Roughly 1 in 500 to 1 in 1,000 people
• XY – Most common form of male
• XYY – Roughly 1 out of 1,000 people
• XXXY – Roughly 1 in 18,000 to 1 in 50,000 births

Nature has a lot more gray in it than people think it does.

Add that up & it's like 0.4% of the population. That's not the people here being talked about primarily as the non-paired chromosome folks generally have lots of other issues. I love your use of "most common forms" to describe 99.6% of people. "Overwhelming" or "almost all" are much more accurate than "most".

 

[PhDcat2018]

What about the people that regret their transition? Is there a term, or any concern for them?

Their suicide rates are pretty high. Of course libs blame that on people insulting them rather than the mental illness itself.

 

[vhcat70]

You should read the twitter thread I linked here about why it's not that cut and dry. Your definition will include some people with penises as women. And that's the issue. Any simple definition we choose has examples that don't fit within that definition, because nature isn't as neatly divided as our simplified models of nature make it out to be.

So you're telling me that the trans folks largely have one of these chromosome issues described in the thread vs. their state being a mental condition (not meaning to be fixed)?

 

[PhDcat2018]

Add that up & it's like 0.4% of the population. That's not the people here being talked about primarily as the non-paired chromosome folks generally have lots of other issues. I love your use of "most common forms" to describe 99.6% of people. "Overwhelming" or "almost all" are much more accurate than "most".

Correct. The people with legitimate biological issues are understandable and VERY RARE.

 

[vhcat70]

Their suicide rates are pretty high. Of course libs blame that on people insulting them rather than the mental illness itself.

Sure. Has to be on the straight white folks.

 

[Beatle Bum]

What about the people that regret their transition? Is there a term, or any concern for them?

Yeah, and this wave of transition is new. Medical science does not know what a life of hormone treatment after blockers is going to do to the person. Medical science is really not the proper term. They are going blind on a lot of this.

 

[Beatle Bum]

Correct. The people with legitimate biological issues are understandable and VERY RARE.

And, the subjects of known mutations. This is not new science. But, claiming it as proof of more than two genders is new.

 

[80 Proof]

So you're telling me that the trans folks largely have one of these chromosome issues described in the thread vs. their state being a mental condition (not meaning to be fixed)?

Based on those numbers listed above by ukcatz12, less than .01% of the population is trans. Seems like a very low number considering the fuss made about this and the amount of people claiming to be trans.

 

[ganner918_rivals60369]

So you're telling me that the trans folks largely have one of these chromosome issues described in the thread vs. their state being a mental condition (not meaning to be fixed)?

No, this is a side discussion that started because people started asking me how to define what a woman is.

I think it's also informative because, as I've said, imo the human mind is more complex than the body and if the body doesn't always fit neatly into our two boxes, it makes little sense to expect the mind to fit neatly into our two boxes.

 

[PhDcat2018]

Based on those numbers listed above by ukcatz12, less than .01% of the population is trans. Seems like a very low number considering the fuss made about this and the amount of people claiming to be trans.

Winner winner chicken dinner.

 

[ganner918_rivals60369]

Their suicide rates are pretty high. Of course libs blame that on people insulting them rather than the mental illness itself.

Lower than the suicide rates of people who don't transition. Trans people in general have a high suicide rate. Withholding transition therapy prevents us from decreasing that rate.

 

[Beatle Bum]

Withholding transition therapy prevents us from decreasing that rate.

Conjecture posed as fact. And, who is “us?”

 

[PhDcat2018]

Lower than the suicide rates of people who don't transition. Trans people in general have a high suicide rate. Withholding transition therapy prevents us from decreasing that rate.

Or, we could just treat it like the disorder it is...

 

[American Dragon]

Still no one can answer why they ideologically don't like the bill. "I must teach your kids about sex and if I cant what the hell else am i supposed to teach" is a weird hill to die on. And considering the bill is K-3rd can these ppl not wait until the following 8 grades?

It's amazing that they think there's a large constituency of ppl who want this taught to their kids. But that's why they've rolled out the propaganda "don't say gay" even tho the bill mentions that no where, doesn't say you can't say you are gay or have gay parents, or even talk to a child about it if they approach you. It's literally only about curriculum. But the left knows this because they DO want to teach your children about it.

I have to assume most teachers aren't well read considering the actual bill is public record.

And if your point is well there will be some unintended consequences...okay can you point to anything the government has ever done that doesn't?

Much of the bill applies to all grades, not just K-3. For example, If you have some ultra prude and conservative parent who believes it's not age appropriate to learn about sex before 18 or that gay people are the devil incarnate, they could sue because their 12th grade student had reading material that made a passing mention at sex or someone being gay