Do you go to Church?

[P.PattersonISwalkingthruthatdoor]

I said message not details. Of course details on how people saw it would be a little different but, the overall story and message is the same.

That message evolves over the course of the NT. Biblical scholars generally agree about the chronology in which the various works were written; when you look at how the character of Jesus gradually changes in that sequence of books, it's pretty interesting how certain authors include/omit various components of the story/history.

Pauline epistles -> Mark -> Matthew/Luke -> John. Were you taught that that was the order in which they were written?

 

[Bill Derington]

Crow religious or not, all people have tendencies to be weak, hippocritical and gossipy. It's just human nature. Religion doesn't make them that way.

 

[Lord_Crow]

It certainly seems to bring it out in them. Almost like drunkenness.

 

[Bill Derington]

It certainly seems to bring it out in them. Almost like drunkenness.

I'm not going to say you're wrong, as I've seen it too. I just ignore people like that no matter where I run into them.
I can't make them act another way, and usually just means they're insecure about themselves.

 

[FutureCityCats_rivals]

It certainly seems to bring it out in them. Almost like drunkenness.

Interesting choice of words (see Acts Chapter 2). FCC.

 

[warrior-cat]

That message evolves over the course of the NT. Biblical scholars generally agree about the chronology in which the various works were written; when you look at how the character of Jesus gradually changes in that sequence of books, it's pretty interesting how certain authors include/omit various components of the story/history.

Pauline epistles -> Mark -> Matthew/Luke -> John. Were you taught that that was the order in which they were written?

Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John for me. As far as inclusion or omission, I believe it is more of how they interpret it or their perspective towards it. There are some who explain it as GOD inspiring them to write it that way as to confuse those who would not believe anyway. Not sure if I believe that. I am more in the corner of perspective-interpretation. Again, all religions rely on a lot of faith based on how we feel and how we (individuals) understand what is written. An easy way to put it today is, all of us can see the same accident happen but, give a somewhat different report to the police as to what we saw.

 

[DaBossIsBack]

Why is it that the Jews are God's "chosen" people? Why is Israel the holy land? Why wouldn't God make it a point to bring up all the other civilizations/tribes across the globe? Why is the focus of the bible glued to this one region? Seems like if God was concerned about the welfare of the world back then, he would have made it a point to include the entire world? No?

 

[Lord_Crow]

$

Because they would bank unto him and the accounts would be as wheat in the field.

 

[P.PattersonISwalkingthruthatdoor]

Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John for me. As far as inclusion or omission, I believe it is more of how they interpret it or their perspective towards it. There are some who explain it as GOD inspiring them to write it that way as to confuse those who would not believe anyway. Not sure if I believe that. I am more in the corner of perspective-interpretation. Again, all religions rely on a lot of faith based on how we feel and how we (individuals) understand what is written. An easy way to put it today is, all of us can see the same accident happen but, give a somewhat different report to the police as to what we saw.

So you believe that the four gospels were put down on paper at the same time and before any of the epistles? Do you mind me asking what denomination you are?

 

[Brushy Bill]

Why is it that the Jews are God's "chosen" people? Why is Israel the holy land? Why wouldn't God make it a point to bring up all the other civilizations/tribes across the globe? Why is the focus of the bible glued to this one region? Seems like if God was concerned about the welfare of the world back then, he would have made it a point to include the entire world? No?

1. Because He chose them to be His people.
2. Because that is what He ordained.
3. Because He didn't choose to.
4. Because He chose this region to focus on.
5. He did, He sent His only Son to die on the cross for the sins of all mankind past/present/ and future.

 

[Lord_Crow]

5. He did, He sent His only Son to die on the cross for the sins of all mankind past/present/ and future.

This, to me, is one of the clearest indications that religion is a scam. Think about that for a moment. What logical sense is there to send his son to die for everyone else's sin? Other than one massive guilt trip which is known as a hook in a scam, why do that?

An omnipotent being, capable of anything, elects to do that with his only earthly son? Of all possible things he could do to show men something of himself, he chooses to lay a massive guilt trip on everyone by allowing thugs to crucify his son as a public display of his own impotence... and that was the plan?

That is such utterly transparent nonsense that it alone should be enough to dismiss all the other obvious hooks in an admittedly craftily drafted con. A small rabble emerges with one massive and fearful god that you cannot question and that cannot show itself but will deliver eternal life if you believe in it and only it and if you do not then you will burn eternally in a brutish hell.

And people, in droves, believe this nonsense. It boggles the mind that in a modern educated world such nonsense can still prosper, soak, and con. Blatantly so. Spitefully so.

 

[Lord_Crow]

Young men, burning in an oppressed religious hell at the height of their puberty, are asked to strap a bomb to themselves and as a reward a thousand virgins will be waiting for them.

That seem like purposeful manipulation, of course. Tragic manipulation, even. All in the name of this ridiculous hoax that even our highest leaders perpetuate for fear of facing their wrath. Every educated thinking person should take it as a personal responsibility to call this con job out for what it is. We should no longer coddle this dangerous nonsense nor stand idly by as it claims another generation of thoughtless babbling zombies preaching its silly self-serving nonsense. Religion is a scam, a hoax, and a con. You subscribe to it out of weakness for in your weakest moments are what all of its conniving barbs insinuate themselves into. Who, in a moment of strength rather than weakness, welcomes this nonsense to overtake their lives?

 

[Brushy Bill]

This, to me, is one of the clearest indications that religion is a scam. Think about that for a moment. What logical sense is there to send his son to die for everyone else's sin? Other than one massive guilt trip which is known as a hook in a scam, why do that?

An omnipotent being, capable of anything, elects to do that with his only earthly son? Of all possible things he could do to show men something of himself, he chooses to lay a massive guilt trip on everyone by allowing thugs to crucify his son as a public display of his own impotence... and that was the plan?

That is such utterly transparent nonsense that it alone should be enough to dismiss all the other obvious hooks in an admittedly craftily drafted con. A small rabble emerges with one massive and fearful god that you cannot question and that cannot show itself but will deliver eternal life if you believe in it and only it and if you do not then you will burn eternally in a brutish hell.

And people, in droves, believe this nonsense. It boggles the mind that in a modern educated world such nonsense can still prosper, soak, and con. Blatantly so. Spitefully so.

An omnipotent being, capable of anything, can do whatever It wants. If you don't believe it happened that way, then that is your choice.

 

[warrior-cat]

So you believe that the four gospels were put down on paper at the same time and before any of the epistles? Do you mind me asking what denomination you are?

Do not really affiliate with a specific denomination now. Have been Jehovah witness (grew up that way) Baptist (high school friends father was a preacher), Pentecostal (brother lured me into that one). Just study the Bible most days and go to various different churches now. Not sure really in what order the all of the Bible was written, just read and ask questions of those who have more knowledge than I on the subject. Believe because of past happenstances (to me) and an inner feeling that tells me God exist.

 

[Lord_Crow]

I'm omnipotent, so in order to show all these people that I created that I am who I am then I think it is a good idea to actually appear impotent by allowing them to nail my son to a cross who I just sent all over the place to show how powerful I am, only I allowed him to be beat and kicked all the way up the mountainside and then crucified so obviously they were calling my bluff but I recognized one helluva opportunity to seize on a guilt trip so I opted for that rather than by actually saving my son which would have made the previous message I had him delivering actually credible.

Or...

We were a bunch of powerless rabble that invented a god then had this one guy pretend to be his son. We preached all over the place but when they got tired of listening to the nonsense they grabbed him and nailed him to a board and this completely discredited us, but we later claimed he rose from the dead because, well, if we didn't then we'd have been exposed and we had to keep the gravy train rolling otherwise we'd be right back to being powerless rabble.

 

[P.PattersonISwalkingthruthatdoor]

Do not really affiliate with a specific denomination now. Have been Jehovah witness (grew up that way) Baptist (high school friends father was a preacher), Pentecostal (brother lured me into that one). Just study the Bible most days and go to various different churches now. Not sure really in what order the all of the Bible was written, just read and ask questions of those who have more knowledge than I on the subject. Believe because of past happenstances (to me) and an inner feeling that tells me God exist.

Oh, well I have no idea what JWs tend to teach when it comes to NT scriptural analysis. Baptists and most American evangelical sects certainly do adhere to the rough timeline posted above (along w the Q Hypothesis).

 

[Brushy Bill]

Just bang your head on a wall. It's more satisfying than trying to have an intelligent conversation with Z.

Should have taken my own advice.

 

[warrior-cat]

Oh, well I have no idea what JWs tend to teach when it comes to NT scriptural analysis. Baptists and most American evangelical sects certainly do adhere to the rough timeline posted above (along w the Q Hypothesis).

Actually, I really do not know much about Jehovah's Witnesses myself. When I say grew up, I should clarify. My brothers and sisters (6 of us) really did not like being there but had no choice so, we basically just showed up and goofed a lot in church.

 

[Beavis606]

I read it as Beavis trying to lighten the mood a little. If he wasnt trying to be humorous I sincerely apologizes Beavis.

Apology accepted. Not trying to be funny at all. I am most places on this board, but not in this thread. But yeah, it is pretty hilarious. I'm sure God, Jesus, Moses, Abraham, David and maybe a few more are doubled up laughing their butts off at this old lady with a touch of dementia who has been looking forward to going to heaven for 60 years, but is now dreading it.

 

[UpstateNYCat]

I usually get the 2pc. with mashed taters and honey butter biscuit.

 

[Bill Derington]

Apology accepted. Not trying to be funny at all. I am most places on this board, but not in this thread. But yeah, it is pretty hilarious. I'm sure God, Jesus, Moses, Abraham, David and maybe a few more are doubled up laughing their butts off at this old lady with a touch of dementia who has been looking forward to going to heaven for 60 years, but is now dreading it.

I am sorry, my grandmother has dementia as well. I honestly thought you were trying to make light of an obvious bad situation.

 

[wildcatwelder_rivals]

I am sorry, my grandmother has dementia as well. I honestly thought you were trying to make light of an obvious bad situation.

As did I; sorry Beavis.

 

[Beavis606]

No biggie.

 

[Brushy Bill]

I guess we can rehash the details if we must, but there are sooo many issues, it will take some time and effort. That's why I wish people would just study the opposing material and come prepared. Use your own logic and reason, if your faith can handle it.

I have studied this subject from a number of different angles and perspectives over the course of a lifetime. Just because I've come to a different conclusion than you doesn't make my beliefs any less valid. Your pretentiousness in our back and forth is just a little irratating, I don't require instruction on this matter from you or anyone else.

 

[IdaCat]

I have studied this subject from a number of different angles and perspectives over the course of a lifetime. Just because I've come to a different conclusion than you doesn't make my beliefs any less valid. Your pretentiousness in our back and forth is just a little irratating, I don't require instruction on this matter from you or anyone else.

You've not yet provided any evidence that you've studied it. I wasted my time answering your question and included multiple points. Yet the only reply you have is to tell me how mean I am for stating what is proving to be true.

I don't expect you to type a damn detailed essay. But Jeez. "you've come to a different conclusion". Is that really all you've got?

 

[Brushy Bill]

It lacks authenticity.
By who's standard are we judging its authenticity?

Nobody knows who wrote the gospels.
Why is who wrote them more important that what is written?

They were written many decades after the Jesus character died based on passed down, embellished oral traditions.
They were written after His death, as are a lot of biographical texts. As far as being embellished that is a matter of opinion not a statement of fact.

About half of Paul's letters are considered to be forgeries.
Considered by who? This is opinion not fact.

We have no N.T. originals. The earliest complete surviving manuscripts date to hundreds of years after he supposedly died.
Seriously, how many 2000 year old original manuscripts (Biblical or otherwise) do you think are floating around out there.

There are thousands of textual variants in the manuscripts. We know that copiests altered the text either intentionally or by mistakes.
This is to broad a topic to get into here and now. I'm sure you've studies both sides of this subject though.

There are good reasons to doubt historical events described therein.
This is subjective, it is remarkably accurate as an archeological tool. Some of the historical content has yet to pe proven correct, but it hasn't been proven incorrect either, it is simply unknown at this time.

It's full of contradictions, inconsistencies, and absurdities.
This is to broad a topic to get into here and now.

Isn't that enough already to not think Jesus was divine, assuming he even lived?
As I said I have spent a lifetime studying this subject and I am confident in the beliefs that I have formed.

 

[P.PattersonISwalkingthruthatdoor]

This is subjective, it is remarkably accurate as an archeological tool.

oh lawd

 

[Cawood86_rivals]

To Beavis, I thought you were joking. My apologies to you.

 

[IdaCat]

It lacks authenticity.
By who's standard are we judging its authenticity?

By the definition of the word.

Nobody knows who wrote the gospels.
Why is who wrote them more important that what is written?

Because it lends credibility to the authority of documents. We know it's not the apostles names ascribed. The truth of the Bible isn't a foregone conclusion. It isn't like Euclid's Elements where the truth therein is obvious regardless who wrote it. We're expected to believe a lot of extraordinary claims in those books.

They were written many decades after the Jesus character died based on passed down, embellished oral traditions.
They were written after His death, as are a lot of biographical texts. As far as being embellished that is a matter of opinion not a statement of fact.

How can you trust the content of any "biography" that has an unknown biographer and has a consensus of being based on oral traditions? Especially one that claims ultimate knowledge of our eternal fate. I know. Faith. Where's the evidence that prove the claims therein actually happened? After the earliest books, Paul's letters, the Jesus superman legend evolved in each succeeding gospel.


About half of Paul's letters are considered to be forgeries.
Considered by who? This is opinion not fact.

Apparently not you and some of the fundamentalists. Critical scholars and historians accept it, even those who are religious. You haven't heard of this?

We have no N.T. originals. The earliest complete surviving manuscripts date to hundreds of years after he supposedly died.
Seriously, how many 2000 year old original manuscripts (Biblical or otherwise) do you think are floating around out there.

I don't care about the others. We're talking about "gods word". It took about 300 years before a complete version was pulled together and even after that it was constantly changed. I know. You don't care. Do you think the ending of Mark is original because it's in the King James?

There are thousands of textual variants in the manuscripts. We know that copiests altered the text either intentionally or by mistakes.
This is to broad a topic to get into here and now. I'm sure you've studies both sides of this subject though.

I've studied it enough to know that the text of "god's everlasting word" has been changed thousands of times, parts have been lost, and we don't have a single version that is consistent with all the variants. This may good enough for government work, but god? Come on man.

There are good reasons to doubt historical events described therein.
This is subjective, it is remarkably accurate as an archeological tool. Some of the historical content has yet to pe proven correct, but it hasn't been proven incorrect either, it is simply unknown at this time.

Archaeological tool, my ***. Even Israeli Jewish archaeologists have admitted that the Exodus tale is a legend. Fiction added to the text. The N.T. is full of myth and legend as well. You have a strange idea of how historians do their work.

It's full of contradictions, inconsistencies, and absurdities.
This is to broad a topic to get into here and now.

Yes, there are many of them.

Isn't that enough already to not think Jesus was divine, assuming he even lived?
As I said I have spent a lifetime studying this subject and I am confident in the beliefs that I have formed.

And you're welcome to them. Just don't expect a person who requires evidence to find it convincing. It's really not even worth considering, IMO.

 

[DaBossIsBack]

1. Because He chose them to be His people.
2. Because that is what He ordained.
3. Because He didn't choose to.
4. Because He chose this region to focus on.
5. He did, He sent His only Son to die on the cross for the sins of all mankind past/present/ and future.

Oh. Ok. Welp. Clears that up,

 

[Wall2Boogie]

What if I sell my soul to Satan to save humanity before Jesus makes it back? I'll do it. Satan must know that Jesus is coming back, so why wouldn't he undermine Jesus and buy my soul instead?

This didn't work for Robert Johnson....allegedly

 

[Beavis606]

Btt

 

[IdaCat]

Can somebody tell me what happened to all those zombies in Matt 27 who climbed out of their graves and terrorized the town? Did they rebury themselves or did they have to be head clubbed?

 

[P.PattersonISwalkingthruthatdoor]

Can somebody tell me what happened to all those zombies in Matt 27 who climbed out of their graves and terrorized the town? Did they rebury themselves or did they have to be head clubbed?

i was also wondering whether such a remarkable event was recorded by anyone else

 

[KentuckyStout]

Can somebody tell me what happened to all those zombies in Matt 27 who climbed out of their graves and terrorized the town? Did they rebury themselves or did they have to be head clubbed?

Nothing of the sort happens at Matthew 27: 51-53. You simply don't understand what the scripture here is saying.

27:51 - refers to an earthquake in which "the rocks were split"

27:52 - describes the opening of tombs by the earthquake and the exposing of buried corpses. "the tombs were opened up and many bodies...were raised up" (strictly speaking, the account does not say that the “bodies” came to life. It merely says that they were raised up or thrown out of the tombs by the earthquake.)
At that time, dead bodies were customarily placed in vaults or chambers cut from Palestine’s soft limestone rock, often in hillsides. The earthquake broke open tombs near Jerusalem and thus exposed corpses to passersby.

27:53 - "(and people coming out from among the tombs after his being raised up entered into the holy city) and they became visible to many people"

Those that “entered into the holy city” did so a considerable time later, namely after Jesus had been resurrected. Matthew here refers to persons who visited the tombs and brought news of the event into Jerusalem.

So, the account a Matthew 27:51-53 refers to corpses being exposed by an earthquake, being seen by many people who brought the news into Jerusalem.

 

[KentuckyStout]

Also - there are several accounts of earthquakes throwing corpses out of their tombs, here are two examples:

Sonson, Colombia (1962).

El Tiempo (July 31, 1962) reported: “Two hundred corpses in the cemetery of this town were thrown out of their tombs by the violent earth tremor.” Persons passing by or through that cemetery saw the corpses, and, as a result, many of the people in Sonson had to go out and rebury their dead relatives.

Popayan, Columbia (1983)

“Today we have the smell of the dead who have been asleep in the tombs,” said a Red Cross worker, describing one striking effect of a powerful earthquake that hit Popayán, Colombia, just before the Easter weekend. “The cemetery tombs opened up and corpses came out. . . . I’ve never seen anything like it.”
As reported in the St. Petersburg Times, the Red Cross worker was stunned “by the sight of corpses bursting from their tombs in the cemeteries of this mountain town. The quake that Thursday shook this city of 200,000 struck with such force that the walls of mausoleums crumbled, spilling caskets. . . . The city was shaken as if God had taken a jackhammer to it.”

So there is clarification of what Matthew describes in other parts of the world as well.

 

[IdaCat]

Nothing of the sort happens at Matthew 27: 51-53. You simply don't understand what the scripture here is saying.

27:51 - refers to an earthquake in which "the rocks were split"

27:52 - describes the opening of tombs by the earthquake and the exposing of buried corpses. "the tombs were opened up and many bodies...were raised up" (strictly speaking, the account does not say that the “bodies” came to life. It merely says that they were raised up or thrown out of the tombs by the earthquake.)
At that time, dead bodies were customarily placed in vaults or chambers cut from Palestine’s soft limestone rock, often in hillsides. The earthquake broke open tombs near Jerusalem and thus exposed corpses to passersby.

27:53 - "(and people coming out from among the tombs after his being raised up entered into the holy city) and they became visible to many people"

Those that “entered into the holy city” did so a considerable time later, namely after Jesus had been resurrected. Matthew here refers to persons who visited the tombs and brought news of the event into Jerusalem.

So, the account a Matthew 27:51-53 refers to corpses being exposed by an earthquake, being seen by many people who brought the news into Jerusalem.

BS. I can read. And it doesn't say what you want it to say.

51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

 

[P.PattersonISwalkingthruthatdoor]

Nothing of the sort happens at Matthew 27: 51-53. You simply don't understand what the scripture here is saying.

27:51 - refers to an earthquake in which "the rocks were split"

27:52 - describes the opening of tombs by the earthquake and the exposing of buried corpses. "the tombs were opened up and many bodies...were raised up" (strictly speaking, the account does not say that the “bodies” came to life. It merely says that they were raised up or thrown out of the tombs by the earthquake.)
At that time, dead bodies were customarily placed in vaults or chambers cut from Palestine’s soft limestone rock, often in hillsides. The earthquake broke open tombs near Jerusalem and thus exposed corpses to passersby.

27:53 - "(and people coming out from among the tombs after his being raised up entered into the holy city) and they became visible to many people"

Those that “entered into the holy city” did so a considerable time later, namely after Jesus had been resurrected. Matthew here refers to persons who visited the tombs and brought news of the event into Jerusalem.

So, the account a Matthew 27:51-53 refers to corpses being exposed by an earthquake, being seen by many people who brought the news into Jerusalem.

What translation are you using?

NIV:
"The earth shook, the rocks split and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs after Jesus' resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people."

KJV:
"...and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared until many."

NASB:
"...and the earth shook and the rocks were split. The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many."

 

[IdaCat]

New International Version
and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.
New Living Translation
and tombs opened. The bodies of many godly men and women who had died were raised from the dead.
English Standard Version
The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised,
New American Standard Bible
The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
King James Bible
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Holman Christian Standard Bible
The tombs were also opened and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised.
International Standard Version
tombs were opened, and many saints who had died were brought back to life.
NET Bible
And tombs were opened, and the bodies of many saints who had died were raised.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Tombs were opened, and many bodies of the Saints who were sleeping arose.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
The tombs were opened, and the bodies of many holy people who had died came back to life.
Jubilee Bible 2000
and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who slept arose
King James 2000 Bible
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints that slept arose,
American King James Version
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
American Standard Version
and the tombs were opened; and many bodies of the saints that had fallen asleep were raised;
Douay-Rheims Bible
And the graves were opened: and many bodies of the saints that had slept arose,
Darby Bible Translation
and the tombs were opened; and many bodies of the saints fallen asleep arose,
English Revised Version
and the tombs were opened; and many bodies of the saints that had fallen asleep were raised;
Webster's Bible Translation
And the graves were opened, and many bodies of saints who slept, arose,
Weymouth New Testament
the tombs opened; and many of God's people who were asleep in death awoke.
World English Bible
The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
Young's Literal Translation
and the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who have fallen asleep, arose,

 

[P.PattersonISwalkingthruthatdoor]

See, this is the problem with saying a book is the ultimate authority on all matters of truth: Two people can read the same string of words and interpret them differently.

This is why Thomas Paine said the only source of revelation is personal revelation. No scriptures. No priests. No dogma. Only direct, personal communion with a deity.