Does Collins Even Want to Stay?

[7th Cir. Cat]

Is it possible that Collins is as fed up with the situation as everyone else? Any chance he pulls a Shaka Smart and admit it's not working and just leaves without being fired? I know he has $$$ millions of reasons to stay, but he's never experience this kind of sustained losing at any level. And he's been paid well his entire career and grew up with a dad who was an NBA coach he may need the money, but he doesn't "need" the money. Or the aggravation. Or the continued hit to his reputation. I wonder if he's done pounding the rock. I remember thinking that for the first time this season he seemed truly exasparated and over the NU experience, surprisingly this was during a press conference after a win (Rutgers). He could def. get a job as an NBA assistant, be an HC at a lower level (or go the TV route). He wouldn't be unemployed for long if at all.

With the new AD, the NIL, and possibly losing Nance it really seems like he and NU are at a fork in the road. If NU and Collins decide to run it back next year, then I think he's going to be the NU coach for a looooong time. To me, that says that NU is doubling down on academics first and is OK with being competitive-ish, not having scandals, players graduating and pulling the occassional upset(s). Not would I would choose, but it's not an unreasoanble choice if you're NU.

 

[NUCat320]

Not unreasonable, though the ‘hit to the reputation’ comment is a bit comical considering that this his second-best season as a head coach.

As for Nance, again, it’s worth noting that the best win of the season (though losing its luster) came when Nance and Williams — one definitely, one likely gone — were out.

My view is that a team with Boo as the undisputed leader and with Young getting starter’s minutes can be better than this year’s club.

The post-Boo club is a total reset. (Because Boo’s here with his brother, who trod a similar path at PSU, I think Boo’s unlikely to transfer, though I imagine lots of programs are sliding into his DMs these days.)

If there were media that covered the program, we’d probably see more exasperation. But we haven’t.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

Collins is not leaving by choice.
If he is, in fact, "fed up" then he isn't holding himself to account.

His next job is going to be a step down, not up.

 

[7th Cir. Cat]

Not unreasonable, though the ‘hit to the reputation’ comment is a bit comical considering that this his second-best season as a head coach.

As for Nance, again, it’s worth noting that the best win of the season (though losing its luster) came when Nance and Williams — one definitely, one likely gone — were out.

My view is that a team with Boo as the undisputed leader and with Young getting starter’s minutes can be better than this year’s club.

The post-Boo club is a total reset. (Because Boo’s here with his brother, who trod a similar path at PSU, I think Boo’s unlikely to transfer, though I imagine lots of programs are sliding into his DMs these days.)

If there were media that covered the program, we’d probably see more exasperation. But we haven’t.

Agreed that losing Nance next year would be a total reset, which makes me wonder if he's up for it. Don't agree that this is his second best season. The year before the tourney the team won 20 games (and we ain't getting to that numbre this year).

 

[7th Cir. Cat]

Collins is not leaving by choice.
If he is, in fact, "fed up" then he isn't holding himself to account.

His next job is going to be a step down, not up.

Honest question: is it the consensus view that coach of the worst P5 program in basketball history is a "better" job than NBA assistant with the Bulls or ESPN commentator? If not, then it's a lateral move.

 

[NUCat320]

Agreed that losing Nance next year would be a total reset, which makes me wonder if he's up for it. Don't agree that this is his second best season. The year before the tourney the team won 20 games (and we ain't getting to that numbre this year).

I wrote poorly or you read poorly — next year’s team could be better. Nance is misplaced as a top dog, and Boo is not. Boo wants the ball while Nance fears it down the stretch.

Boo took his most challenging college offer, while Nance took the one with the least pressure.

Boo is a dude. I love Boo.

 

[7th Cir. Cat]

I wrote poorly or you read poorly — next year’s team could be better. Nance is misplaced as a top dog, and Boo is not. Boo wants the ball while Nance fears it down the stretch.

Boo took his most challenging college offer, while Nance took the one with the least pressure.

Boo is a dude. I love Boo.

No I get what you meant, and I agree that the team has potential. But it's still the great unkown. Don't forget we could also be losing Greer. We have no idea how Simmons/Barnhizer/Nicholson will respond to big minutes. FWIW, I think Roper will be fine with an increased role.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

Honest question: is it the consensus view that coach of the worst P5 program in basketball history is a "better" job than NBA assistant with the Bulls or ESPN commentator? If not, then it's a lateral move.

Honest answer - the consensus view is not my forte. I was referring to "the coaching ladder" (next step down) so I would count ESPN commentator as a huge step off the ladder entirely.

I don't see anybody hiring Collins as an assistant in the NBA. He hasn't proven himself to be an X's and O's guy at all. Although I must admit, I don't care about the NBA and have no idea what the assistant coaches even do, other than try to help the young guys adjust.

 

[7th Cir. Cat]

Honest answer - the consensus view is not my forte. I was referring to "the coaching ladder" (next step down) so I would count ESPN commentator as a huge step off the ladder entirely.

I don't see anybody hiring Collins as an assistant in the NBA. He hasn't proven himself to be an X's and O's guy at all. Although I must admit, I don't care about the NBA and have no idea what the assistant coaches even do, other than try to help the young guys adjust.

Fair point. By consnesus I just meant if you gathered 100 college level assistants in a room and offered them the the option of: (a) head coach of NU or (b) assistant with the Bulls; whether the majority would take the NU job.

Say what you will about Collins as an tactitian, but he's been a good recruiter for NU so I suspect that he would be able to connect with young guys like Ayo on the Bulls and help him improve. Also, having just come out of the college ranks may even be seen as an asset for an NBA team with a lot of young players.

 

[Sec_112]

... My view is that a team with Boo as the undisputed leader and with Young getting starter’s minutes can be better than this year’s club ...

I don't totally disagree with this. You see glimpses of it now. The Boo-Young+ lineup moves the ball much better than the Boo-Nance+ lineup. Young isn't wandering around the 3-pt trying to decide his next move.

People have talked about the playing the kids in anticipation of next year. I think you're already seeing a bit of a move to next year with Nance having less time in the final ten minutes of the last several games.

A lot of this is hope on my part. You still need another step up from Buie, Audige and Beran next to get anywhere.

 

[Sec_112]

Back to the original question, I never understood why there was a gang bang on Collins from the word go this year. I've always thought his time is limited.

a) If he would have won, I think he would've been outta here.
b) So the season is a borderline disaster for original expectations that he needed to get it done with the Nance class. It's not like this came out of nowhere. You could somewhat see this coming and the administration should be prepared for it. There's been a sign by the AD that he's not all in on Collins and I'm betting he's gone. If he's not dumped, then we're looking at a different perspective from the NU adminstration.
c) Another reason he may want out ... a new AD and President. Who knows what signals he's getting?

The only real reason I can see him staying is his kids. Maybe he wants them to have the NU education?

 

[JournCat]

When Collins' name got floated for the Wake Forest opening a few years ago, it was booed by pretty much everyone. Part of that was probably him being a Duke guy. I could see him going back to be an assistant for Scheyer and putting a few years of distance behind his tenure. He is a good coach -- not a perfect one, but just a guy whose time here needs to end.

 

[GatoLouco]

There's been a sign by the AD that he's not all in on Collins

Explain?

 

[NJCat]

Explain?

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

Explain?

They did a background check on the new AD and he is not insane.

 

[combes]

When Collins' name got floated for the Wake Forest opening a few years ago, it was booed by pretty much everyone. Part of that was probably him being a Duke guy. I could see him going back to be an assistant for Scheyer and putting a few years of distance behind his tenure. He is a good coach -- not a perfect one, but just a guy whose time here needs to end.

Collins makes $1,430,000 at NU.

Scheyer, as an assistant at Duke, makes $400,000.

If Collins isn’t fired, why would he take a million dollar pay cut to be an assistant?

 

[JournCat]

Collins makes $1,430,000 at NU.

Scheyer, as an assistant at Duke, makes $400,000.

If Collins isn’t fired, why would he take a million dollar pay cut to be an assistant?

Oh, I meant after he gets fired.

 

[NJCat]

Collins makes $1,430,000 at NU.

Uh, no. He makes over $3 million per the University IRS Tax filings.....

https://www.thesportsbank.net/college-bball/chris-collins-potential-hot-seat/

 

[Catreporter]

Collins isn't going anywhere this year.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

Collins isn't going anywhere this year.

NIT is technically still possible.

 

[ctsfn]

Is it possible that Collins is as fed up with the situation as everyone else? Any chance he pulls a Shaka Smart and admit it's not working and just leaves without being fired? I know he has $$$ millions of reasons to stay, but he's never experience this kind of sustained losing at any level. And he's been paid well his entire career and grew up with a dad who was an NBA coach he may need the money, but he doesn't "need" the money. Or the aggravation. Or the continued hit to his reputation. I wonder if he's done pounding the rock. I remember thinking that for the first time this season he seemed truly exasparated and over the NU experience, surprisingly this was during a press conference after a win (Rutgers). He could def. get a job as an NBA assistant, be an HC at a lower level (or go the TV route). He wouldn't be unemployed for long if at all.

With the new AD, the NIL, and possibly losing Nance it really seems like he and NU are at a fork in the road. If NU and Collins decide to run it back next year, then I think he's going to be the NU coach for a looooong time. To me, that says that NU is doubling down on academics first and is OK with being competitive-ish, not having scandals, players graduating and pulling the occassional upset(s). Not would I would choose, but it's not an unreasoanble choice if you're NU.

His son goes to NU now so that might indicate he would not be walking away.

 

[7th Cir. Cat]

His son goes to NU now so that might indicate he would not be walking away.

Ah! That's really good info, I didn't know that. Thx for posting. That definitely changes the equation. Unless it's the Bulls he's not going anywhere (of his own volition).

 

[phatcat_rivals223240]

Ah! That's really good info, I didn't know that. Thx for posting. That definitely changes the equation. Unless it's the Bulls he's not going anywhere (of his own volition).

He could coach at Milwaukee after PBS gets fired. Now that's some dark humor there, folks

Parents don't worry so much about chasing / remaining for their kids after high school. If his kid had gone away to school, he likely wouldn't have looked for a coaching job near that school.

Anyway, he's got something like 9 million reasons not to leave. It's his best year since the Allstate year, at least, he can talk himself into "progress" for at least another year. And there's always that phantom prospect that might turn around the program. Heck, stay, get fired, take the buyout. Why leave? I want him to leave, but he won't unless Gragg says so.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

He won’t succeed ( nor will anyone else) until there is a complete paradigm shift in how NU treats Men’s basketball. The powers to be don’t care about fielding a competitive team OR they have no idea what steps to take to start down a path of doing so.

The will give the appearance they do when they fire CCC after the 22-23 season. We will continue to be a 5-8 win team every year and change Coaches to appease the few people that actually care about the program. 4 years from now the same folks bitching that all of this is on CCC will be calling for the head of the new guy after he drops from 8 to 5 conference wins.

 

[PurpleWhiteBoy]

He won’t succeed ( nor will anyone else) until there is a complete paradigm shift in how NU treats Men’s basketball. The powers to be don’t care about fielding a competitive team OR they have no idea what steps to take to start down a path of doing so.

The will give the appearance they do when they fire CCC after the 22-23 season. We will continue to be a 5-8 win team every year and change Coaches to appease the few people that actually care about the program. 4 years from now the same folks bitching that all of this is on CCC will be calling for the head of the new guy after he drops from 8 to 5 conference wins.

Thats a very defeatist attitude and assumes (laughably) that there are no better all-around coaches than Chris Collins.

I don't know how you painted yourself into that corner.

How can you look at the progress/success Fitz has had with the football team, which is a FAR more difficult task, and make excuses for Collins? Its 2-3 players a year.

 

[phatcat_rivals223240]

Thats a very defeatist attitude and assumes (laughably) that there are no better all-around coaches than Chris Collins.

I don't know how you painted yourself into that corner.

How can you look at the progress/success Fitz has had with the football team, which is a FAR more difficult task, and make excuses for Collins? Its 2-3 players a year.

BUT BUT... ADMISSIONS!!!

Also, PWB, let me know when this 8 win season occurs.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

Thats a very defeatist attitude and assumes (laughably) that there are no better all-around coaches than Chris Collins.

I don't know how you painted yourself into that corner.

How can you look at the progress/success Fitz has had with the football team, which is a FAR more difficult task, and make excuses for Collins? Its 2-3 players a year.

Oh well, it’s just my opinion man. I think anyone that believes changing the HC will result in consisting winning WITHOUT other structural changes is wrong. I have stated my position many times. Also, I disagree on football being FAR more difficult task.

 

[xxxbobxxx]

He won’t succeed ( nor will anyone else) until there is a complete paradigm shift in how NU treats Men’s basketball. The powers to be don’t care about fielding a competitive team OR they have no idea what steps to take to start down a path of doing so.

The will give the appearance they do when they fire CCC after the 22-23 season. We will continue to be a 5-8 win team every year and change Coaches to appease the few people that actually care about the program. 4 years from now the same folks bitching that all of this is on CCC will be calling for the head of the new guy after he drops from 8 to 5 conference wins.

Or skip firing the coach and just keep winning 3-5 games a season, demonstrating that the admin really doesn’t care one bit.

 

[xxxbobxxx]

Oh well, it’s just my opinion man. I think anyone that believes changing the HC will result in consisting winning WITHOUT other structural changes is wrong. I have stated my position many times. Also, I disagree on football being FAR more difficult task.

Well, seems like the team is attracting less and less interest. I have said drop MBB or drop the B1G and folks say it will never happen. What is happening is the only fans attending are for the other team. The only recruits interested are below average (per the CCC defenders). The only press showing up for pressers are for the other coach. NU MBB is becoming the Washington Generals.

And if CCC remains among the highest paid NU faculty under those conditions, I would expect the faculty to get noisier. Something will have to give.

Despite that Final Four hope rebirth of a win last night, NU is in the old Sox drawer for me. I won’t spend a dime related to either team until the admin and coaches demonstrate a commitment to trying to win and be competitive.

And before gcg offers to show me the door - I’m not alone based on lack of fan interest and I’ll quit posting when I feel like it. I have already significantly reduced my time around here, noticed others have too and suspect the traffic numbers for this website are also a dumpster fire.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

Or skip firing the coach and just keep winning 3-5 games a season, demonstrating that the admin really doesn’t care one bit.

Caring is about a lot more than replacing the Coach, Bob.

 

[xxxbobxxx]

Caring is about a lot more than replacing the Coach, Bob.

But doing nothing, not even addressing the coaching deficiency, screams lack of interest.

 

[phatcat_rivals223240]

But doing nothing, not even addressing the coaching deficiency, screams lack of interest.

I think it's deeper than that. We have one deep-pocketed, well-known athletic benefactor, whose emphasis is on facilities There may be more, but surely less than at the athletic factories. At a place like LSU, they have people lined up to help buyout a guy so they can give 10M a year to Brian effing Kelly. Here, we have a school awash with donations (We Will!), but an operating budget tight enough that they were laying off people a year or two ago. Athletics certainly has a large operating budget, but not so large that they can set aside 9M to buy out CCC. He's staying.

I don't blame Phillips for the extension, although the length of it seems unnecessary. But, with Collins bloodlines from Duke/NBA, and the trajectory of his first several years, who among us wouldn't have extended him, for fear of him being poached? Who expected an immediate and ongoing collapse? Not me. This is one time where we truly DID have bad "luck stats"

 

[7th Cir. Cat]

I think it's deeper than that. We have one deep-pocketed, well-known athletic benefactor, whose emphasis is on facilities There may be more, but surely less than at the athletic factories. At a place like LSU, they have people lined up to help buyout a guy so they can give 10M a year to Brian effing Kelly. Here, we have a school awash with donations (We Will!), but an operating budget tight enough that they were laying off people a year or two ago. Athletics certainly has a large operating budget, but not so large that they can set aside 9M to buy out CCC. He's staying.

I don't blame Phillips for the extension, although the length of it seems unnecessary. But, with Collins bloodlines from Duke/NBA, and the trajectory of his first several years, who among us wouldn't have extended him, for fear of him being poached? Who expected an immediate and ongoing collapse? Not me. This is one time where we truly DID have bad "luck stats"

I agree with all of this, the collapse has been stunning. But hindsight is 20/20 and I had no problem with the extension at the time. NU is not going to eat his buyout, which is why I thought the more likely scenario was that Collins would leave on his own to get a fresh start and try to rebuild his reputation. But that was before I found out his son was a student at NU. He ain't going anywhere.

 

[SDakaGordie]

I agree with all of this, the collapse has been stunning.

Unsurprisingly to many, this is at the core of my diversion of opinion. Why did we think the flip was switched, and after one NCAA year, we were now on the path to similarly consistent performance? I respect the heck out of Mike Greenberg (who is admittedly wrong about his predictions way more often than not), but he was so wrong to think we could become like Duke once we got to the NCAAs for the first time ever. The existential issues, to PPD’s posts (admissions (shout out to willycat), lack of winning history, lack of fan base), are still there. Therefore, the collapse has not been stunning!! (And just look at 2019 and 2021 football for some similarities, even though we know Fitz is in his own league as a miracle worker of sorts).

 

[7th Cir. Cat]

Unsurprisingly to many, this is at the core of my diversion of opinion. Why did we think the flip was switched, and after one NCAA year, we were now on the path to similarly consistent performance? I respect the heck out of Mike Greenberg (who is admittedly wrong about his predictions way more often than not), but he was so wrong to think we could become like Duke once we got to the NCAAs for the first time ever. The existential issues, to PPD’s posts (admissions (shout out to willycat), lack of winning history, lack of fan base), are still there. Therefore, the collapse has not been stunning!! (And just look at 2019 and 2021 football for some similarities, even though we know Fitz is in his own league as a miracle worker of sorts).

I didn't think we would become Duke. But given that we were returning the core of the tournament team and the rankings of the recruits who were coming in (esp. Kopp and Nance) I thought that we were set-up to be competitive for years. We were getting 4 star guys and everyone (literally) everyone was saying that these were the highest rated recruits ever at NU. Go back and read the press around Beran and what his commitment meant to NU, he had offers from Louisville, Wisconsin, Maryland, and bunch of other places). For whatever reasons our big time recruiting wins didn't translate to wins on the court. But we were still winning recruiting battles even with all the admissions constraints, small fan base etc. so yeah, I thought we had turned the corrner.

 

[phatcat_rivals223240]

Unsurprisingly to many, this is at the core of my diversion of opinion. Why did we think the flip was switched, and after one NCAA year, we were now on the path to similarly consistent performance? I respect the heck out of Mike Greenberg (who is admittedly wrong about his predictions way more often than not), but he was so wrong to think we could become like Duke once we got to the NCAAs for the first time ever. The existential issues, to PPD’s posts (admissions (shout out to willycat), lack of winning history, lack of fan base), are still there. Therefore, the collapse has not been stunning!! (And just look at 2019 and 2021 football for some similarities, even though we know Fitz is in his own league as a miracle worker of sorts).

but it wasn't simply one year. You can say "oh it was BC's recruits" or "oh they had a weak schedule", but the trajectory was there. we went from 4 (BC) B1G wins to 6, 6, 8, 10, plus 2 BTT wins, which are rare as hen's teeth, an NCAA win and a hard-fought 2nd round loss. We had the core of the team coming back. We can look back and say the extension was too long, but, I assure you, he'd have been poached if Phillips had not done some medium- to long-term extension. Phillips choices were extend or Collins leaves. With the new facility and Collins purported "better recruiting", the extension simply made sense. It was just too long.

 

[GatoLouco]

I agree with all of this, the collapse has been stunning. But hindsight is 20/20 and I had no problem with the extension at the time. NU is not going to eat his buyout, which is why I thought the more likely scenario was that Collins would leave on his own to get a fresh start and try to rebuild his reputation. But that was before I found out his son was a student at NU. He ain't going anywhere.

Contrast NU with Louisville and you also have more reasons to believe CC is not going anywhere.

Chris Mack was wildly successful at Xavier, a bit over an hour up the road from the Ville, where his wife is from. He probably did not understand what he was getting into. Very likely he did later, but he is likely not built, as a human being, to thrive in that environment. While the city is no economic or size behemoth, actually much smaller than Cincinnati, it's a completely different world. The Cards are the de facto NBA team for the locals. And they even care more about basketball than football. The team plays in an arena that is bigger than any NBA arena, and have no problems getting butts on the chairs. The local media scrutinizes everything. Fans and media are, therefore, extremely demanding. Not just of results, but of involvement of the program with the city, its fans and its media. One of the tipping points for Mack was Malik Williams being asked if the team still listened to the coach, to which he said he had no comment for. It's challenging for everyone, the pressure on the coach and players is different.

Most agree that Mack is not warm and fuzzy. He is abrasive. He was fine at Xavier as he was insulated to do what he wanted, the way he wanted, without much questioning. In Louisville he made no friends with that attitude of being above being questioned, or showing disdain for those challenging him. It's different, you need much better PR skills to survive in that environment. It's one of the best jobs in the country, but it comes with expectations different from most place. And not just of winning.

In conclusion, I doubt Mack forgot the X's and O's, he's probably still a fine coach, but not one that is flexible enough to fit/adapt to every environment.

Now, NU is a lot more like Xavier from a pressure stand point. Big city, big media market, but no significant local interest in the Cats. Let's face it, our coach has one of the least (maybe even the least) pressure job in the P6. There's no expectations of being amongst the best. Just of not being embarrassing. And you can even be mediocre and survive for 10 years.

Watch our pressers, there is not even remotely a resemblance of accountability questions. None. It's all, tell me the story about this or that in the game. There is no big media outlets interested in it. Even in such a fluffy environment we saw how CC got so agitated at the end of last season. Imagine if there was actually a more challenging environment in those rooms. Woof! Maybe, or likely, we would be going down the road, big buyout or not, of some sort of agreement.

We don't have the money for a big buy out, but we had the money to pay $3M a year to our coach. Something is out of whack. It's NU, it's cushy AF. If it wasn't, CC himself would be looking for ways to leave. When life at work gets miserable, you want out yourself. That's how life is. CC is not going anywhere, there is a buy out and life at work is not terrible.

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

There are plenty of people that believe it is more than the HC that needs to be addressed. Most of them don’t want to engage in the topic and be shouted down.

 

[GatoLouco]

There are plenty of people that believe it is more than the HC that needs to be addressed. Most of them don’t want to engage in the topic and be shouted down.

Agreed, there is more. But hasn't the biggest issue, admissions, been widely debated here?

 

[SDakaGordie]

didn't think we would become Duke. But given that we were returning the core of the tournament team and the rankings of the recruits who were coming in (esp. Kopp and Nance) I thought that we were set-up to be competitive for years. We were getting 4 star guys and everyone (literally) everyone was saying that these were the highest rated recruits ever at NU. Go back and read the press around Beran and what his commitment meant to NU, he had offers from Louisville, Wisconsin, Maryland, and bunch of other places). For whatever reasons our big time recruiting wins didn't translate to wins on the court. But we were still winning recruiting battles even with all the admissions constraints, small fan base etc. so yeah, I thought we had turned the corrner

but it wasn't simply one year. You can say "oh it was BC's recruits" or "oh they had a weak schedule", but the trajectory was there. we went from 4 (BC) B1G wins to 6, 6, 8, 10, plus 2 BTT wins, which are rare as hen's teeth, an NCAA win and a hard-fought 2nd round loss. We had the core of the team coming back. We can look back and say the extension was too long, but, I assure you, he'd have been poached if Phillips had not done some medium- to long-term extension. Phillips choices were extend or Collins leaves. With the new facility and Collins purported "better recruiting", the extension simply made sense. It was just too long.

Fair points by you and 7th circuit. I might surmise that other coaches had a bit of a tough time adjusting to Collins’s team’s style and were even surprised by NU over the first few years. Who knows how much luck was involved in 2016-17. How we didn’t fare as well in 2017-18 is, as we know, the great mystery. But we eventually come to the point of asking - was the subsequent purported increase in talent just not as high as all thought, or does Collins underutilize it? Kopp certainly proves the former. We can keep debating on others. I don’t buy Gato’s argument that Collins is just waltzing through a “cushy AF” job; he’s much too competitive for that, and he loves those kids way too much (and they appear to love him as well in return) for him to treat them that way.