Does LeBron make his teammates better?

[gamecockcat]

Read an interesting article the other day about this subject and it really made me think. The vast majority of players, especially the 'stars' LBJ has played with in his career, have performed worse (some MUCH worse) with him on the team than without. There are a handful of role players (Mosgov, Tristan Thompson to name two) who have played better with LBJ. But, the 'stars' such as Bosh, Wade, Love, Kyrie, et al have all underperformed their expected production in multiple categories. LBJ defenders often point to how little help he gets but, as this article indicated, maybe some of the lack of support is due to LBJ himself.

LBJ is obviously one of the greats and in the conversation for GOAT but it does seem like his game is so ball dominant that players who were previously stars end up limiting their game/effectiveness in order to play with him. Kevin Love is a great example. Averaged about 26 ppg and 13 rpg while at MN and is now a spot-up 3 player who averages 17 ppg and about 10 rpg. Chris Bosh was pretty much the same way.

I think you can see a similar effect with Russell Westbrook. For all of his athleticism and ridiculous stats, it's obviously difficult to assemble a complimentary team around someone who dominates the ball so much. While RW piles up stats, his teammates often times look like spectators who are unsure of exactly what their role is. I can see where the same argument can be said for LBJ's teammates through the years.

In response to another poster, here's the link:
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/...ilbag-does-lebron-james-make-teammates-better

 

[WildMoon]

You should link the article

And also show the data they have .

Or people will call you a hater.

 

[WildMoon]

Also, the interview between bill Russell and bill simmons is interesting insight as well .

 

[LineSkiCat14]

Maybe there's truth to it being "Lebron Show" and why Kyrie left..

Because there was one thing apparent to me.. Javale McGee.. Yes, THAT Javale McGee.. played harder, smarter, and with more confidence, as an 8th man, than anyone else on the Cavs not named Lebron.

Something isn't right about that.

 

[Wall2Boogie]

Without lebron that team is absolutely terrible. Most of those guys won’t be in the nba if he didn’t make them look better. They are a farm team at best. Hell gst and their backups are better than most of Cleveland’s starterd. If he order get help, I hope he leaves Just not to the 76ers or the Lakers . He doesn’t need the larvar ball headache. Especially if they let the next ****** ball make the team. Memo is good, but. He’s not the difference in them winning a title. I would love to see lebron end up in Nola

 

[Big John Stud]

Read an interesting article the other day about this subject and it really made me think. The vast majority of players, especially the 'stars' LBJ has played with in his career, have performed worse (some MUCH worse) with him on the team than without. There are a handful of role players (Mosgov, Tristan Thompson to name two) who have played better with LBJ. But, the 'stars' such as Bosh, Wade, Love, Kyrie, et al have all underperformed their expected production in multiple categories. LBJ defenders often point to how little help he gets but, as this article indicated, maybe some of the lack of support is due to LBJ himself.

LBJ is obviously one of the greats and in the conversation for GOAT but it does seem like his game is so ball dominant that players who were previously stars end up limiting their game/effectiveness in order to play with him. Kevin Love is a great example. Averaged about 26 ppg and 13 rpg while at MN and is now a spot-up 3 player who averages 17 ppg and about 10 rpg. Chris Bosh was pretty much the same way.

I think you can see a similar effect with Russell Westbrook. For all of his athleticism and ridiculous stats, it's obviously difficult to assemble a complimentary team around someone who dominates the ball so much. While RW piles up stats, his teammates often times look like spectators who are unsure of exactly what their role is. I can see where the same argument can be said for LBJ's teammates through the years.

It's easy to assemble complimentary players around Lebron if you have a competent GM.

A rim protector at center, stretch 4 with shooters at the 1 and 2 would be ideal. Instead Cleveland just has a bunch of dudes who play basketball instead of having pieces to a puzzle. That's why the Bulls were so good, every player had a specific role that they played in the triangle and weren't horrific defenders. What role does George Hill play, what does he bring you other than a bad contract? Same For JR Smith and Tristan Thompson? Theres dudes should be reserve players on a title contender, instead they're key cogs on their team.

 

[HoldMyBeer]

Maybe there's truth to it being "Lebron Show" and why Kyrie left..

Because there was one thing apparent to me.. Javale McGee.. Yes, THAT Javale McGee.. played harder, smarter, and with more confidence, as an 8th man, than anyone else on the Cavs not named Lebron.

Something isn't right about that.

Don't forget Swaggy P falling in line too. Lol.

 

[LineSkiCat14]

That IS a pretty putrid team. Without Lebron.. 15 win team? If that? If you put the next best star on that team, KD... 30 win team? Maybe high 30's?

 

[BlueBlood66_rivals34314]

Was Kyrie really worse with Lebron?
Also just using stats as an indicator of “worse” isn’t very informative. Of course Loves stats went down in Cleveland. He went from being the only all star on his team to sharing the floor with Kyrie and Lebron.

 

[CatEye2010]

Wait, what? Lebron has teammates??

 

[Wildcats1st]

Jordan made his teammates better. Lebrons watch him. That’s the big difference between the two.

 

[Big John Stud]

Jordan made his teammates better. Lebrons watch him. That’s the big difference between the two.

Not really, Jordan had a Hall of Fame coach who is one of the greatest coaches in history and had a system that allowed players to play a specific role. Lebron had Lue, Blatt, Spo, Mike Brown, Brendan Malone, and Silas. Coaching matters.

 

[wildcatsboston1984_rivals]

Kyrie's Offensive Rating was significantly better in 2 of his 3 years with LeBron in Cleveland than before. Had a career high O rating in Boston this year. His D rating was around the same. His worst offensive rating season playing with LeBron matched his best prior to playing with LeBron.

His last year in Cleveland, he scored over two more points per 100 possessions than any year prior to LeBron's arrival. His win shares per 48 minutes with LeBron were higher than his 3 years prior to LeBron's arrival. His true shooting % was also significantly higher in two out of 3 years with LeBron than it was before LeBron.

Love's average offensive rating in Cleveland is only two points worse than it was in Minnesota, and this is as the #3 man in Cleveland up until this year. This year it was 120, higher than his average in Minnesota and tied for the 2nd best mark of his career. His defensive rating is one point better in Cleveland than Minnesota.

Love averaged over 30 points per 100 possessions last year and this year, he only did that twice in Minnesota. His per 100 possession career average in Minnesota is less than 2 points better than in Cleveland. That's going from being the clear cut #1 option to the #3 option up until this season.

 

[king of cali]

Jordan made his teammates better. Lebrons watch him. That’s the big difference between the two.

In what ways did MJ make his teammates better and LeBron doesn’t?

 

[Rhavic]

Jordan made his teammates better. Lebrons watch him. That’s the big difference between the two.

No only is that false, but it's almost a complete reversal of the truth. LeBron's basketball IQ and passing ability is much, much better than Jordan's was. LeBron has to do a lot of dragging to make JR Smith and Kevin Love look like half the players that Scottie Pippen and Dennis Rodman were, wouldn't you agree? I have to imagine (as any rational person should) that Michael Jordan definitely couldn't make Smith and Love look like Pippen and Rodman.

OP should be incredibly disappointed in himself comparing Westbrook to LeBron in any way. Westbrook led a team with Paul George and Carmelo Anthony to a very weak season, and earned his team a first round elimination against the Jazz. They were honestly not good at all.

Put injury prone Kyrie on LeBron's team, with the 3rd best player being a complete dud, and also injury prone Kevin Love, and they beat the Warriors last season.

 

[mjj_2K]

I would agree that there arguments on both sides of this, as is shown in this thread.

I think a lot of it comes down to having a defined role. It does seem a little difficult sometimes for LeBron's teammates because LeBron has no defined role (other than to be great), and does a LOT of different things.

I think you've also seen some of this in the playoffs with Durant during the times he's gone off-script and started trying to be an iso, 1 on 1 stud. It's seemed to cause a glitch in the GS machine at times.

However, Durant has the luxury of truly being able to trust his teammates. He knows he can take only 10-15 shots if that's what the flow of the game brings, and have absolute confidence that his teammates will be able to perform. LeBron does not have that, at all, and rarely ever has.

 

[JamesLee]

I saw the article you are referring to and thought it brought up an interesting point. I didn't agree with the metrics they used to measure whether or not his teammates improved being on his team, as I thought the differences were somewhat minimal. But just bringing up the discussion was valuable. Because it has been assumed that LeBron raises each teammate everywhere he goes. That's never been questioned by the commentators or analysts.

What I've seen a few times in a breakdown by the ABC/ESPN/TNT crews during these playoffs are the lack of effort some of his teammates have in some situations. And the thought is that his teammates have become so accustomed to rely on LeBron to do so much, that the instinct to give 100% on each and every play gets lost and complacency sets in.. The problem here is that the NBA players are so great, that not even the best player in the world can defeat a great team like the Warriors by himself. And as much as I place blame on his teammates for accepting this "sit back and let LeBron do the work" role, I blame LeBron just as much.

One of the many reasons Michael Jordan is considered the greatest of all-time is because of his leadership. I've heard from several NBA players in interviews say that there has never been a greater leader on the court than MJ. Jordan made sure that everyone, from himself and Pippen to the last guy on the bench understood their significance on the team and that when their number was called, they better be ready. The best examples are of Steve Kerr and John Paxon hitting clutch shots, and they did so because they knew that Jordan believed in them. With LeBron's supporting cast, they are not used to being relied upon. So when they have a moment like J.R. did in game 1, they are either unprepared or uninformed.

Ultimately I believe LeBron makes his teammates better because of the attention he draws. LeBron is one of the best passers the game has ever seen. He is constantly on attack which changes the way a defense will approach the entire team. But it's almost like the Peyton Manning Colts teams in the mid 2000s. The Colts defense was so reliant on Peyton and the offense scoring on every drive that when they weren't putting up points, the bend-but-don't-break defense was constantly losing games for them.

LeBron will go down as one of the best but ultimately polarizing players in NBA history. People will create theories to find out where he "went wrong" and why he wasn't as successful as guys like Jordan, Kobe, Magic, Russell, etc. who all had dynasties with more rings to justify their place in history.

 

[rick64]

With the exception of Kevin Love, none of the Cavs other starters would start for GS, Houston, Boston, OKC, etc.

 

[BlueBomb]

If anyone here doesn't think that Lebron makes his teammates much better, then it proves to me you're a hater without the ability to fairly process what you see. And honestly, your opinion is worthless to me.

I mean seriously, as far as I'm concerned Lebron is the best in history at getting his teammates to perform at a championship level.

And by the way, Jordan remains the GOAT.

 

[NCFB92]

Lebron is an all time great no doubt, but he is also a little overrated.

 

[wildcatsboston1984_rivals]

Lebron is an all time great no doubt, but he is also a little overrated.

My nomination for stupidest post of the year.

 

[Iced Mayo]

If anyone here doesn't think that Lebron makes his teammates much better, then it proves to me you're a hater without the ability to fairly process what you see. And honestly, your opinion is worthless to me.

I mean seriously, as far as I'm concerned Lebron is the best in history at getting his teammates to perform at a championship level.

And by the way, Jordan remains the GOAT.

This is the problem with having a LeBron conversation. People defend him no matter what, call you a hater and/or dumb. The article comes with stats. He's ball dominant and it forces other good players to sink into a much smaller role. His offense with Kyrie and Wade were: you attack this time and I'll attack next time. There's no denying that he's a top 2-3 player ever but he has flaws and to act like he doesn't just makes your argument weak.

 

[gamecockcat]

I think it's an interesting debate. The common perception is that LBJ has 'raised' and 'carried' his teammates to at least a few of the Finals he's been in and, to a certain extent, that's absolutely true. But, take LBJ off the Cavs this year (especially since they probably wouldn't have traded Kyrie if LBJ weren't on the team - Kyrie didn't want to share the spotlight and Isaiah Thomas was a ball-dominant misfit from the start with LBJ) and the Cavs team quite possibly makes the playoffs this year, albeit a 7- or 8-seed. Instead of parking Love on the 3-point line, he's in the paint where he's proven to be very effective in years past. And, don't forget the only reason Tristan Thompson is making big bucks being barely a 'contributor' is because his agent is LBJ's agent and he lobbied very hard to pay TT outrageous money to stay on the Cavs to make LBJ happy. So you can't downgrade LBJ's supporting cast if he was lobbying hard to get/keep said cast.

JR Smith has had some good years but playing with LBJ he looks completely lost. I mean he gets a rebound 3 feet from the hoop and dribbles out the clock. Was it because he truly didn't know the score? Probably. But maybe (and he actually said this in one interview) he was looking to pass to LBJ presumably because he and the rest of the Cavs have relied on him for so long to take every big shot they just didn't know what to do in a situation like that.

LeBron is incredible. Perhaps his game is too good and too all-encompassing to fit really well with a lot of different players. Seems like too many possessions his teammates are waiting passively to receive a kickout pass or watching him score.

I do agree that the stats in the original question are a bit misleading. Of course, Love won't touch the ball nearly as much when LBJ is on the floor thus his scoring will suffer. However, his % should be better with LBJ creating better shots for his teammates, right?

Like I said - it's an interesting debate. No debating that GS is clearly the better team, though. Wonder how Klay, Steph and Draymond would play if LBJ and KD were switched? Could LBJ adapt and thrive in the motion offense that GS employs vs. the isolation Cleveland (and every LBJ team) employs?

The thought currently is LBJ to Philadelphia but will the young talent want to be bit players while LBJ dominates the ball (Embiid at the 3-point line will make him better?) or will LBJ change his game to accommodate a better group of players around him? Again, interesting.

 

[Chuckinden]

I don't follow the NBA except in the playoffs. It appears to me Lebron makes his teammates nervous, not better. If they screw up, he's all over them.

Lebron is certainly a great player though.

 

[Iced Mayo]

I think it's an interesting debate. The common perception is that LBJ has 'raised' and 'carried' his teammates to at least a few of the Finals he's been in and, to a certain extent, that's absolutely true. But, take LBJ off the Cavs this year (especially since they probably wouldn't have traded Kyrie if LBJ weren't on the team - Kyrie didn't want to share the spotlight and Isaiah Thomas was a ball-dominant misfit from the start with LBJ) and the Cavs team quite possibly makes the playoffs this year, albeit a 7- or 8-seed. Instead of parking Love on the 3-point line, he's in the paint where he's proven to be very effective in years past. And, don't forget the only reason Tristan Thompson is making big bucks being barely a 'contributor' is because his agent is LBJ's agent and he lobbied very hard to pay TT outrageous money to stay on the Cavs to make LBJ happy. So you can't downgrade LBJ's supporting cast if he was lobbying hard to get/keep said cast.

JR Smith has had some good years but playing with LBJ he looks completely lost. I mean he gets a rebound 3 feet from the hoop and dribbles out the clock. Was it because he truly didn't know the score? Probably. But maybe (and he actually said this in one interview) he was looking to pass to LBJ presumably because he and the rest of the Cavs have relied on him for so long to take every big shot they just didn't know what to do in a situation like that.

LeBron is incredible. Perhaps his game is too good and too all-encompassing to fit really well with a lot of different players. Seems like too many possessions his teammates are waiting passively to receive a kickout pass or watching him score.

I do agree that the stats in the original question are a bit misleading. Of course, Love won't touch the ball nearly as much when LBJ is on the floor thus his scoring will suffer. However, his % should be better with LBJ creating better shots for his teammates, right?

Like I said - it's an interesting debate. No debating that GS is clearly the better team, though. Wonder how Klay, Steph and Draymond would play if LBJ and KD were switched? Could LBJ adapt and thrive in the motion offense that GS employs vs. the isolation Cleveland (and every LBJ team) employs?

The thought currently is LBJ to Philadelphia but will the young talent want to be bit players while LBJ dominates the ball (Embiid at the 3-point line will make him better?) or will LBJ change his game to accommodate a better group of players around him? Again, interesting.

What a great post. Taking everything that you just said into consideration, the player who fits best next to LeBron is a guy that can dominate without touching the ball or needing to create his own shot. That player is Anthony Davis. What a pairing that would be!

 

[Cindog28]

Yes. I think he makes his teammates bitter.

 

[DakkoN_rivals378614]

Specific kind of players thrive with LeBron. Hustle/energy bigs, spot up shooters, 3 and D wings. He takes on so much of the load on offense that he has the tendency to take plays off on defense, so being a long defender that can also shoot 3's are the ideal players. The players that have "got worse" with LeBron were high volume players who needed the ball in their hands to produce. Those guys see a drop off in production because when you're playing with LeBron, he's always going to have the ball in his hands.

 

[Catzman]

I'll answer your question with another question, would the Cavs be in the finals without LeBron? Would they even be .500? Rhetorical.

 

[UKWildcats#8]

Lebron pissed away Irving...had it good with him and they could have fought the Warriors some but people don't like playing with Lebron...same with Jordan and Kobe. They are all all time greats with Jordan and Lebron probably 1 and 2 respectively, but it is what it is. That said, someone will "team up" with Lebron next year and he may win another title or two forming another super team.

 

[BBNinSCar]

I saw the article you are referring to and thought it brought up an interesting point. I didn't agree with the metrics they used to measure whether or not his teammates improved being on his team, as I thought the differences were somewhat minimal. But just bringing up the discussion was valuable. Because it has been assumed that LeBron raises each teammate everywhere he goes. That's never been questioned by the commentators or analysts.

What I've seen a few times in a breakdown by the ABC/ESPN/TNT crews during these playoffs are the lack of effort some of his teammates have in some situations. And the thought is that his teammates have become so accustomed to rely on LeBron to do so much, that the instinct to give 100% on each and every play gets lost and complacency sets in.. The problem here is that the NBA players are so great, that not even the best player in the world can defeat a great team like the Warriors by himself. And as much as I place blame on his teammates for accepting this "sit back and let LeBron do the work" role, I blame LeBron just as much.

One of the many reasons Michael Jordan is considered the greatest of all-time is because of his leadership. I've heard from several NBA players in interviews say that there has never been a greater leader on the court than MJ. Jordan made sure that everyone, from himself and Pippen to the last guy on the bench understood their significance on the team and that when their number was called, they better be ready. The best examples are of Steve Kerr and John Paxon hitting clutch shots, and they did so because they knew that Jordan believed in them. With LeBron's supporting cast, they are not used to being relied upon. So when they have a moment like J.R. did in game 1, they are either unprepared or uninformed.

Ultimately I believe LeBron makes his teammates better because of the attention he draws. LeBron is one of the best passers the game has ever seen. He is constantly on attack which changes the way a defense will approach the entire team. But it's almost like the Peyton Manning Colts teams in the mid 2000s. The Colts defense was so reliant on Peyton and the offense scoring on every drive that when they weren't putting up points, the bend-but-don't-break defense was constantly losing games for them.

LeBron will go down as one of the best but ultimately polarizing players in NBA history. People will create theories to find out where he "went wrong" and why he wasn't as successful as guys like Jordan, Kobe, Magic, Russell, etc. who all had dynasties with more rings to justify their place in history.

Jordan never gave a damn about his teammates. It was Phil Jackson that had confidence in the Bulls’ bench.

 

[BBNinSCar]

I do have a confession. I grew up in the Bluegrass state and “adopted” the Knicks because of Walt Frazier, Willis Reed, and Earl Monroe. Kentucky will always be #1 but New York is still second in my heart

I HATE Michael Jordan!!

 

[mjj_2K]

Specific kind of players thrive with LeBron. Hustle/energy bigs, spot up shooters, 3 and D wings. He takes on so much of the load on offense that he has the tendency to take plays off on defense, so being a long defender that can also shoot 3's are the ideal players. The players that have "got worse" with LeBron were high volume players who needed the ball in their hands to produce. Those guys see a drop off in production because when you're playing with LeBron, he's always going to have the ball in his hands.

I tend to agree with this. What's sad is that LeBron and his teams have never seemed to recognize this and attempted to build that way.

It's always a big name thing. It's bring in old, fat Shaq, or Antwan Jamison, or old Dwyane Wade, or totally washed up Derek Rose, or Isaiah Thomas, and it's choosing to play with Wade (when he was still near his prime), and Bosh, and Irving, and Love, (with lots of talk through the years about wanting to play with Carmelo), when it seems like LeBron would have it easier with different types of teammates.

I also don't think it helps that LeBron has NEVER seemed to have any respect for young players. He always wants proven quantities, and "proven" too often means "on the downside of his career".

LeBron and his teams have been a lot like the GM's in baseball who sign 30+ year old superstar free agents to long contracts (a shrinking lot as it has become more obvious how big of a risk that poses), then watch as 2 years later that 20mil+ a year superstar is far outperformed by some 23 year old not even making 1/20th as much.

 

[Mike-D]

He makes everybody worse. They all go on to win titles without him.

 

[Kooky Kats_anon]

How’s the old saying go?

“You can’t make LeMonade out of a steaming pile of dog ****.”

 

[BlueBomb]

This is the problem with having a LeBron conversation. People defend him no matter what, call you a hater and/or dumb. The article comes with stats. He's ball dominant and it forces other good players to sink into a much smaller role. His offense with Kyrie and Wade were: you attack this time and I'll attack next time. There's no denying that he's a top 2-3 player ever but he has flaws and to act like he doesn't just makes your argument weak.

I didn’t make an argument, just an observation.

 

[trav55_rivals214556]

Read an interesting article the other day about this subject and it really made me think. The vast majority of players, especially the 'stars' LBJ has played with in his career, have performed worse (some MUCH worse) with him on the team than without. There are a handful of role players (Mosgov, Tristan Thompson to name two) who have played better with LBJ. But, the 'stars' such as Bosh, Wade, Love, Kyrie, et al have all underperformed their expected production in multiple categories. LBJ defenders often point to how little help he gets but, as this article indicated, maybe some of the lack of support is due to LBJ himself.

LBJ is obviously one of the greats and in the conversation for GOAT but it does seem like his game is so ball dominant that players who were previously stars end up limiting their game/effectiveness in order to play with him. Kevin Love is a great example. Averaged about 26 ppg and 13 rpg while at MN and is now a spot-up 3 player who averages 17 ppg and about 10 rpg. Chris Bosh was pretty much the same way.

I think you can see a similar effect with Russell Westbrook. For all of his athleticism and ridiculous stats, it's obviously difficult to assemble a complimentary team around someone who dominates the ball so much. While RW piles up stats, his teammates often times look like spectators who are unsure of exactly what their role is. I can see where the same argument can be said for LBJ's teammates through the years.

In response to another poster, here's the link:
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/...ilbag-does-lebron-james-make-teammates-better

Without reading one stat, so I could be wrong, but if he made his teammates any worse they wouldn’t have made it past the first round.

 

[dvillecatfan]

What has kyrie won without LBJ? What has Love won without LBJ? Bosh? Wade had 1.

 

[uky8unc5]

How many titles did Love or Kyrie win without Lebron? Enough said.

 

[EliteBlue]

It's easy to assemble complimentary players around Lebron if you have a competent GM.

A rim protector at center, stretch 4 with shooters at the 1 and 2 would be ideal. Instead Cleveland just has a bunch of dudes who play basketball instead of having pieces to a puzzle. That's why the Bulls were so good, every player had a specific role that they played in the triangle and weren't horrific defenders. What role does George Hill play, what does he bring you other than a bad contract? Same For JR Smith and Tristan Thompson? Theres dudes should be reserve players on a title contender, instead they're key cogs on their team.

This

It's why the bulls were so good and why GS is so tough to beat now.

Lebron is best suited to be the point forward that he is. But to maximize that he would need a shooter like Booker/Murray on each wing, a stretch 4 (K Love works) and a gritty rim protector/rebounder. Put 3 legit shooters on the floor with him and let him attack and kick. Instead, he's always played with other ball dominant players with a similar skill set to his own.

 

[mjj_2K]

Making his team better and making his teammates better can be 2 different things, which some people seem to fail to realize.

LeBron obviously makes any team he plays on vastly better, and that is the key thing. But it's proven to be very difficult, for whatever reason, to build a great team around LeBron. Even the Heat were never as dominant as people expected.

That could just be bad luck, and bad management of the teams LeBron has played on, but it's not totally out of the realm to wonder if LeBron's dominance is a part of that.

People forget how slow a process it was for Jordan and the Bulls. His first 3 years in the league, it was pretty much the Jordan show (on mediocre teams), with him going 1 on 5. Then there was a slight pullback on Jordan's individual brilliance (like playing PG for a big chunk of 88-89) as the Bulls acquired a more talented surrounding cast. It took a few more years of trying, but once they got it right, they got it completely right.

LeBron has never been in a situation like that, partially through his own designs when he jumped to Miami then back to Cleveland. It's been 8 years of trying to cobble together the right formula with established stars.