All the talk of 757, Richmond area, Northern Va domination seems to have died off the last couple of years. Obviously Salem's victory in state championship the last two years plus Magna Vista, Blacksburg, Staunton River and Lord Botetourt in division 3 and teams like Appomattox and Richland's in division 2 has contributed to this. Obviously those areas are loaded with talent but teams from the West have shown that they can be on the same field on a given year. By saying this, I am not putting west teams on pedestal just proving that they can at times play with the big boys.
East West North South talk dead?
- Thread starter freeatlast2013
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I have already stressed my views on this in another post ; however, I understand why this topic derived and to be honest, the "east is the beast" theory held true for the first two years with decisive blow outs. A win is a win, Salem has two and is the King of the mountain. Free as a Salem fan you have the right to crow about the Spartans. I previously wrote:
"Football season is coming soon enough and whether the West/East is better doesn't make a bit of difference come State Championship day. For arguments sake 4 schools (Salem 3x's, Sherando 1x, Lake Taylor 2x's and Dinwiddie 2x's) have ended up in the final since-realignment, all four have one loss and Salem has two titles. Two titles for the West and two for East".
There is no definitive way to determine which region is better and other than a conversation piece its frankly not important. I admittedly once thought the West would struggle because the West is 1,2,3,and 4 top heavy and the East is 4, 5, and 6 top heavy. Yes, Salem and Salem only from the west has shown it can compete and win on the big stage, but does that mean the "West" has or has not held its own against the "East" or vice versa?
I will use some statistical data to attempt to shed some light on this matter. It will not prove a darn thing, but its one possible way to evaluate Free's proposition.
First, let's look at this from a ratings standpoint: Taking the top eight teams from both regions I will compare (average) the VHSL 2016 final power point ratings.
East= 30.0375
West=28.9875
Second, lets compare (average) 2016 strength of schedule from VHSL Reference for the top 8 teams from each region.
East= 61.9625
West=59.300
As previously stated this is just a bunch of numbers. It does seem to indicate the "east" scheduling is a bit better from top to bottom. Since the East/West no longer exist we can now argue which sub region is better (a,b,c,and d). When you look at it from that perspective Region D has three trips to the 4a final and two state championships. Region A has two trips to the final and one state championship. Region B Has two trips to the final and one state championship. Region C has one trip to the state championship. Hopefully, we can leave this West and East business rest. I for one pray, the regions cross bracket and bring some "old time excitement"! We all should be proud of our teams, areas and regions, but truly, the only "best" is not the region, but the team that is holding the title. Have a great day guys. I look to seeing the Spartan faithful in week three.
"Football season is coming soon enough and whether the West/East is better doesn't make a bit of difference come State Championship day. For arguments sake 4 schools (Salem 3x's, Sherando 1x, Lake Taylor 2x's and Dinwiddie 2x's) have ended up in the final since-realignment, all four have one loss and Salem has two titles. Two titles for the West and two for East".
There is no definitive way to determine which region is better and other than a conversation piece its frankly not important. I admittedly once thought the West would struggle because the West is 1,2,3,and 4 top heavy and the East is 4, 5, and 6 top heavy. Yes, Salem and Salem only from the west has shown it can compete and win on the big stage, but does that mean the "West" has or has not held its own against the "East" or vice versa?
I will use some statistical data to attempt to shed some light on this matter. It will not prove a darn thing, but its one possible way to evaluate Free's proposition.
First, let's look at this from a ratings standpoint: Taking the top eight teams from both regions I will compare (average) the VHSL 2016 final power point ratings.
East= 30.0375
West=28.9875
Second, lets compare (average) 2016 strength of schedule from VHSL Reference for the top 8 teams from each region.
East= 61.9625
West=59.300
As previously stated this is just a bunch of numbers. It does seem to indicate the "east" scheduling is a bit better from top to bottom. Since the East/West no longer exist we can now argue which sub region is better (a,b,c,and d). When you look at it from that perspective Region D has three trips to the 4a final and two state championships. Region A has two trips to the final and one state championship. Region B Has two trips to the final and one state championship. Region C has one trip to the state championship. Hopefully, we can leave this West and East business rest. I for one pray, the regions cross bracket and bring some "old time excitement"! We all should be proud of our teams, areas and regions, but truly, the only "best" is not the region, but the team that is holding the title. Have a great day guys. I look to seeing the Spartan faithful in week three.
Once again, I hark back to what the great guru Matt Gilliam wrote after Salem's victory over Lake Taylor in 2015. Here's an excerpt, with emphasis added in bold by me:
"I consider this win by Salem as the final blow in the Southeast superiority myth. They're just another area of the state with football that's no better than anywhere else. Yes, they tend to have a few powerhouses that dominate, but that seems to be more a function of the fact that there is no parity down there than that the average football team, coach, or player is any better than in Mountains, or the Piedmont or DC.
I am not saying here that Lake Taylor isn't a great team, or Oscar Smith, or Ocean Lakes. I'm just saying that it's time for everyone to admit that there is no region of the state that's guaranteed a title in any class. We play good football EVERYWHERE in Virginia."
I think this sums it up quite well, especially the last sentence. So once more, credit to Matt.
In regards specifically to 4A, I don't remember reading much on VaPreps about potential domination by the Richmond or NOVA areas. I do recall a lot of chatter from 2013 about how certain 757 teams, particularly Phoebus, were going to dominate everyone else well into the foreseeable future. It should be noted that most of those remarks came from a wide variety of posters (many of whom seldom post much), and not necessarily Phoebus fans. Absolutely nothing against the Phantom team or their dedicated fans, but I do have to admit that the fact that Phoebus hasn't even appeared in so much as one state football final - even in 3A - since the 2013 reorganization does give me a certain amount of pleasure. Another little factoid that makes me smile: since 2013, Salem and Roanoke County schools have accounted for four state football crowns, while all of Tidewater/the 757 have come up with two. Doesn't really mean much, but the raw numbers are kind of amusing.
Ultimately, I agree with Navy - there is no surefire way to prove which region is better, and such arguments are really kind of pointless. Especially when we have little more than one game in December from which to draw any conclusions. For instance, does Salem barely slipping by LT in two overtimes in 2015 prove that the West was the better region that season? Not really. It just showed that the best from the West was capable of beating the East's top team on a given day. It's all very fluid, and changes year-to-year, anyway, if not month-to-month. As said above, any part of the state is capable of producing excellent teams. I've always thought all the claims of regional superiority (both ways) were rather stupid, even when Dinwiddie and LT had their dominant squads in '13 and '14. As I and others have stated many times, those two teams were head-and-shoulders above everyone else in 4A, East and West, in those years. One of the fringe benefits of Salem winning the past two years is that perhaps it has persuaded some people to finally recognize that, yes, maybe they can play a little ball out West. Even while some of us knew that all along.
"I consider this win by Salem as the final blow in the Southeast superiority myth. They're just another area of the state with football that's no better than anywhere else. Yes, they tend to have a few powerhouses that dominate, but that seems to be more a function of the fact that there is no parity down there than that the average football team, coach, or player is any better than in Mountains, or the Piedmont or DC.
I am not saying here that Lake Taylor isn't a great team, or Oscar Smith, or Ocean Lakes. I'm just saying that it's time for everyone to admit that there is no region of the state that's guaranteed a title in any class. We play good football EVERYWHERE in Virginia."
I think this sums it up quite well, especially the last sentence. So once more, credit to Matt.
In regards specifically to 4A, I don't remember reading much on VaPreps about potential domination by the Richmond or NOVA areas. I do recall a lot of chatter from 2013 about how certain 757 teams, particularly Phoebus, were going to dominate everyone else well into the foreseeable future. It should be noted that most of those remarks came from a wide variety of posters (many of whom seldom post much), and not necessarily Phoebus fans. Absolutely nothing against the Phantom team or their dedicated fans, but I do have to admit that the fact that Phoebus hasn't even appeared in so much as one state football final - even in 3A - since the 2013 reorganization does give me a certain amount of pleasure. Another little factoid that makes me smile: since 2013, Salem and Roanoke County schools have accounted for four state football crowns, while all of Tidewater/the 757 have come up with two. Doesn't really mean much, but the raw numbers are kind of amusing.
Ultimately, I agree with Navy - there is no surefire way to prove which region is better, and such arguments are really kind of pointless. Especially when we have little more than one game in December from which to draw any conclusions. For instance, does Salem barely slipping by LT in two overtimes in 2015 prove that the West was the better region that season? Not really. It just showed that the best from the West was capable of beating the East's top team on a given day. It's all very fluid, and changes year-to-year, anyway, if not month-to-month. As said above, any part of the state is capable of producing excellent teams. I've always thought all the claims of regional superiority (both ways) were rather stupid, even when Dinwiddie and LT had their dominant squads in '13 and '14. As I and others have stated many times, those two teams were head-and-shoulders above everyone else in 4A, East and West, in those years. One of the fringe benefits of Salem winning the past two years is that perhaps it has persuaded some people to finally recognize that, yes, maybe they can play a little ball out West. Even while some of us knew that all along.
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Well written @SpartanOfYore. Look forward to discussing the Dinwiddie vs. Salem game with the Spartan faithfully in a few short months.
Nobody saw Phoebus slipping like this, though. Phoebus was one year (they still went 12-1 that year but were probably 4th or 5th in 5A behind LT, SB, and NS) removed from a 4 peat in 5A, you'd be a fool not to expect them to drop down and dominate. Their 4A years are whatever, they see teams like Dinwiddie and LT back when they were doing 5A but them being this bad (relative term) in 3A is baffling. I know Bill Dee (RIP) has been gone since 2008 but did he really lay so much foundation down that now they're lost without him? Are they lacking talent right now, as schools are wont to do in that ever-changing 757 area? Did they just not take the West seriously twice? It's very weird over there.
The East/West stuff is whatever. I don't mind Salem carrying the banner a little (although somehow the loss in 2014 got people more mad than they were when Dinwiddie shredded Sherando) for the West but those titles were, to me, about Salem. The biggest question since the merge has been about the West's ability to hang with the East and the subset of that has always been can Salem, the standard bearer of the West, do it. They answered yes in 2015 and removed all doubt in 2016. Now the question will be is Salem the exception to the rule or is the rule itself folly.
The East/West stuff is whatever. I don't mind Salem carrying the banner a little (although somehow the loss in 2014 got people more mad than they were when Dinwiddie shredded Sherando) for the West but those titles were, to me, about Salem. The biggest question since the merge has been about the West's ability to hang with the East and the subset of that has always been can Salem, the standard bearer of the West, do it. They answered yes in 2015 and removed all doubt in 2016. Now the question will be is Salem the exception to the rule or is the rule itself folly.
The wheels started coming off on Ireland Street for a variety of reasons. Some of which is the fault of the Hampton School system administration. The coaching is not what it once was. I think the overall athletism available is in a multi-year slump. And it's harder and harder to get and keep the attention of teens theses days. Meaning, getting them to buy into year-round dedication to weight rooms, camps, eating right, thinking mostly about football and getting better at it.
The thing about '14 that sticks with me is the number of GW fans sitting on the Salem side cheering for LT. That was certainly their right, but they were saying things like Salem can't win without homecooking, referring to the referees. (As if GW had been robbed the week before while being drubbed by 4 TD's late in the game) LT was clearly a better team just as Dinwiddie was the year previous. GW couldn't come close to stopping Ramsey and his 6 TD's, anymore than Salem trying to stop Johnson running and throwing the ball the following week.
Defenses have stepped up the last 2 years after lopsided wins the first 2 years. It also seems like there has been more parity in the championship game the last 2.
Gradually I think East/West will stop being the main topic and the conversation will turn to the teams that consistently find a way to the finals. In 4 years only 4 teams have been represented.
in regards to Pheobus... ever notice that when phebous was great hampton was down and now hampton is up and pheobus is down..
To All my "rocket surgeons" out there, Why do you think that always seems to be the relationship?
Neighboring schools... all the sudden drop on and off the map symbiotically. Hmmm, why would that be?!?!? I'll let you fill in the blanks there and make your own determinations.
Also, fort monroe closed and yes coaching but none of those 2 factors could make that much of a difference.
To All my "rocket surgeons" out there, Why do you think that always seems to be the relationship?
Neighboring schools... all the sudden drop on and off the map symbiotically. Hmmm, why would that be?!?!? I'll let you fill in the blanks there and make your own determinations.
Also, fort monroe closed and yes coaching but none of those 2 factors could make that much of a difference.
Phoebus and Lake Taylor were the obvious preseason favorites in 2013, and I had no problem with that, for that particular year. It was all the comments to the effect of, "Phoebus or LT will win state for the next ten years" that struck me even at the time as a load of crap. And indeed, it was.