Elite Program Status (Germans?)
- Thread starter NWADog
- Start date
Fair points….I can get on board with most all of that.
To clarify, that list of 10 (actually 12) schools was not intended to be an official ranking, but rather a list of schools that are all ahead of us in at least one of the CWS / national title department while at least equal in the other. Also, 3 of the 12 have won titles in the past decade, and 5 of 12 have won one within the past 15 years. 10 of the 12 made the 2021 NCAA tournament, and I believe all those same 10 have been to Omaha within the past decade (including 3 this year).
So, while you have maybe 1 or 2 programs who are in a bit of a downturn to their historical norms…it’s still largely a list of extremely relevent, very high end college baseball programs.
Gonzaga is a really good comparison other than the fact that most all of their success has been in the last 20 years. I think Illinois basketball is another good comparable that has a longer term history of success across several decades. We are probably a mixture of those two programs.
And do we think about Gonzaga in the same tier as Duke, Indiana, UNC, Kentucky, UCLA, Arizona, Kansas, UConn, Villanova, Louisville? Of course we don't.
Do we think of Oregon in the same vein as Alabama, LSU, Florida, Ohio State, Clemson, Florida State, Miami, Oklahoma, Texas, USC? Of course we don't.
But are we in the next tier. Yes, we are.
This was meant necessarily for BFB or GBudaw, but the rest who are saying we are elite.
Do we think of Oregon in the same vein as Alabama, LSU, Florida, Ohio State, Clemson, Florida State, Miami, Oklahoma, Texas, USC? Of course we don't.
But are we in the next tier. Yes, we are.
This was meant necessarily for BFB or GBudaw, but the rest who are saying we are elite.
Alright…last 10 complete seasons (2010-2019).
Same as before - first number is total CWS appearances, second number is national titles.
Florida (7 / 1)
South Carolina (3 / 2)
Vanderbilt (4 / 2)
Virginia (3 / 1)
TCU (5 / 0)
Arkansas (4 / 0)
FSU (4 / 0)
Louisville (4 / 0)
Texas Tech (4 / 0)
UCLA (3 / 1)
Oregon State (3 / 1)
Arizona (2 / 1)
Texas (3 / 0)
UNC (3 / 0)
LSU (3 / 0)
Mississippi State (3 / 0)
Its basically the same as the all time result overall, just with different teams. 11 teams with objectively better numbers, 4 others with similar numbers to ours. Take your pick on how you’d rank us against Texas, UNC, Arizona, and LSU over that period.
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Purdue is a solid basketball program, but they aren't even close to the most respected Big 10 program in their own state.
Indiana has 5 national titles and 39 NCAA appearances.
Do you not see any issue with the fact that State's position on this list would change completely if you included 2021, which is only pending a NC??
By this logic, Yale with 18 National Championships has a more elite football program than Alabama, who has 16 titles.
Yes, the CWS counts of MSU, TX, Arizona, and Virginia would all be +1 for appearances. I simply didn’t include 2021 because it isn’t done yet. We win the natty, we shoot way up the list. We don’t, we only surpass LSU and UNC definitively, and tie a bunch of other teams with 4 appearances and zero titles (who would all be behind 7-8 teams with 5+ appearances and/or multiple appearances with at least one title).
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How much does our program actually change if we get to put a 1 in the NC column? Do we actually all of the sudden become elite?
It's a perception. We are clearly an elite program to many already, even without the championship. So is Arkansas, btw.
Again, I’m not the one saying we aren’t elite. I’ve made a deliberate point in not even talking in those terms because its so open to subjectivity in my opinion. You want to call us elite, or not, I won’t argue with you either way.
Now to your question, a NC changes things immensely, for any program that wins one….and especially if its the first one. EVERYTHING gets ratcheted up into a whole new stratusphere….recruiting, ticket sales, ticket waiting lists, donations, you name it. Taking the field while being announced as the defending national champions over the PA or on ESPN for a whole season is something you can’t put a price tag on when it comes to program notoriety.
Consider this….we are currently, in your words, the “most elite we’ve ever been”. We’re on the best 10 year run in the history of MSU baseball, which is no small feat. Even over that time, there are still 7-8 schools at a minimum that have bested us, including 3 schools in our own conference. All of them have recruited better players, won more games, and won titles. In the case of the three teams within our conference, they all won their first national title and leveraged it to major recruiting success. 2 of the 3 were able to win a second title in the same time frame. That’s the biggest thing….success on the level of winning a national title begets more success on that same level. This isn’t about achieving (or already having) some make believe “elite” status, it’s about taking the next step for the program and for all of our athletics programs in general.
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Look man, anything before 2000 is a moot point. There are no players signing up for any of these programs that give a crap about that stuff. I'm not saying it doesn't help build your program but at some point you can't keep pointing to stuff that happened before the turn of the century and claim it's relevant.
Southern Cal, Arizona State, and Oklahoma State are not elite programs. And even though Arizona, Virginia, and Miami all have a title in the last 20 years I'd still say our program is better at this point in time.
Texas is absolutely a more elite program than us, taking the last 20 NCAA tournaments into account. Doesn't mean a whole lot when we play them this weekend though, because our players don't give two ***** that Texas won a title when they were in kindergarten.
Purdue has the most Big 10 titles, (which is what I specifically referenced--conference success) at 24. Indiana is a close second with 22. As you pointed out Indiana has 39 appearances and Purdue has 32. We have fewer national titles than Georgia but who in their right mind would say they are a more respected program in the SEC?
It's just an illustration that the best team over the course of the season can succumb to bad luck in one game, which is what postseason is generally about.
It's just an illustration that the best team over the course of the season can succumb to bad luck in one game, which is what postseason is generally about.
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Anything before 2000 is irrelevant? You sure it’s not actually anything before 2005? 1995? 1963? 2009? Why 2000? That’s just as arbitrary as anything else. But regardless, if that’s your position, I’d refer you to the below list of teams in my reply to She Mate Me that have been the best over the past 10 years, where we have been the 8th or 9th best program at best if you include 2021 thus far, 11th-14th best or something like that if you don’t. You tack on the 10 years before 2010, and that **** gets considerably worse for us, as you should probably already know.
Southen Cal and AZ State are absolutely programs that could be whatever you want to call elite, but have fallen on hard times. AZ State was in Omaha in 2010, and since have hit a decade like we hit in the 2000’s. Southern Cal’s entire athletic department has been a shitshow since about 2005, but they still have the facilities, talent base, history, and brand recognition to quickly get back to a Top 5 level if they ever find competent leadership.
If you are saying Arizona and Virginia are below us at this point in time, I’d have to ask what the criteria is for saying that, because I don’t see it. Both those programs have a natty AND a runner-up finish within the past 10 years, and both of them are in the exact same spot we are this year. Both have about the same number of CWS appearances as we have over the past decade (which is our best ever) as well.
If you want to call your shot and think we are currently as well positioned over the next 10-20 or however many years as anyone else in the country, then say that. Makes total sense. But you can’t just crown us right now over all these other teams that have already been where we want to go, before we get there.
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"Purdue is probably the most respected and consistent Big 10 basketball program over the history of the conference "
This is what I responded to. No interest in an argument, but this is pretty indefensible, and you're trying.
Indiana has it over Purdue in basketball in nearly everything that matters including the best winning percentage in Big 10 history. Purdue's most dominant Basketball years were from 1910 to 1940.
The Georgia example is apples and oranges. Nobody thinks Georgia's baseball history compares to Indiana's basketball history.
Like I said, solid program and history, but your statement above is simply not true. I'm out on this one.
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20 years is absolutely arbitrary but it's a closer snapshot of where your program is TODAY as opposed to things that happened 40 years ago in the 80's. Like I said in another reply, if all you care about is titles with no other criteria then Yale has a more elite football program than Alabama. You think that's the case? That any of the titles they won in the 20's or 30's matter one damn bit today?
That's the point. I personally happen to give weight to consistency over time. You put a lot more weight on titles.
When you talk about Virginia I give us a slight edge.
Reasoning: Over the last 20 years we both have the same number of CWS appearances with them winning 1 title. (This year still in play for both programs).
On the surface you'd give them the edge, but we have been more consistent in the post-season than they have and that counts for something too. That's why I give us a slight edge.
Looking at SR appearances + CWS appearances + CWS titles, we have had more consistent post-season runs than they have.
MSU: 6 Regionals + 6 SR + 5 CWS + 0 Titles
Virginia: 8 Regionals + 2 SR + 5 CWS + 1 title.
The thing about Virginia is that they have flamed out in Regional play more than we have, including ones they host, and we have 4 extra Super Regional appearances over the last 20 years.
So, they may be ahead of us but it ain't by much. And if they are Elite then I'm not sure why we wouldn't be.
Sorry man, a natty trumps 4 super regionals every day and twice on Sunday….can’t believe you would argue otherwise. Are you seriously saying you wouldn’t trade our accomplishments over the past 20 years for UVA’s?
Also, you are doing the same thing you accused me of doing….using old data to prop one team up while putting another one down. Your criteria heavily penalizes UVA for basically not winning any of their regionals in 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, and 2008. A time period when, to borrow your terminology, our current players were in kindergarten. From 2010-2021, UVA has 6 super regionals and we have 7.
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The only thing they have on us is that one title. Would you trade our program's accomplishment's for Coastal Carolina's? I sure as Hell wouldn't, because we have a FAR SUPERIOR PROGRAM than Coastal Carolina's.
I went back twenty years only to show you how dumb it was to include programs like Arizona State, USC and Oklahoma State as 'Elite' programs when they haven't been relevant since before our players were even born. It gets worse for them if you go from 2010-2021. Knock yourself out.
And no, I don't know that I'd trade our program's accomplishments for Virginia's. We'll get a title. And when we do your argument will be dead.
Believe me, I hope that argument becomes dead just like you do. But until it does....
Overall point:
All-time our accomplishments are not Top 10
Past 20 years, our accomplishments are not Top 10
Past 10 years (our best decade ever), our accomplishments are tail end of the Top 10, at best, and virtually tied with a bunch of other teams in that spot.
Past 5 years, our accomplishments are Top 10, maybe Top 5.
We’re trending in the right direction, but so are a ton of other programs. There’s only one thing left to do to move long-term into the upper echelon.
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This is pretty much exactly the way I feel. I want a title as much as any fan, but having the program we have today is even more important to me. I want a competitive, exciting well coached team to be a fan of every year. That's the mark of a great program.
With that kind of program, a title or multiple ones should come. Haven't yet, but it honestly isn't more than a minor disappointment to me. It's much more important to consistently be playing in big games year to year.
We'll get it eventually. Hell, most casual fans I've talked to assume we have 2 or 3 championships anyway because we're a fixture on the national scene.
Regardless of the past, going forward, the PAC 12 and probably the Big 10 non revenue sports are in serious peril of being eliminated given the current mindset of the woke university administrators. I can't see college baseball being able to survive in those leagues ten years.
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