ESCC/CCL Merger Facts

[ESCC fan]

How about these? ‍

1-Loyola Marist Br.Rice Mt.Carmel
2-Providence St.Rita Montini Marmion
3-De La Salle St.Laurence Fenwick St.Ignatius
4-Nazareth Benet Notre Dame Joliet Catholic
5-St.Patrick Carmel St.Viator Marian Central
6-Leo St.Joseph DePaul Marian Catholic
Hope Academy (Out)

Marmion looks out of place but they did come into the league with Montini a few years ago.

This doesn't seem like much of a 'merger'...4 and 5 are made up of entirely ESCC teams.

 

[sac'em]

Why would Brother Rice and Marist be placed with Loyola and MC? Brother Rice hasn't done much except for this season. Marist has been consistently above average but not State Finals consistent like the other two. How about Naz in that top group with either BR out or Marist out?

 

[DeanOfSelection]

Why would Brother Rice and Marist be placed with Loyola and MC? Brother Rice hasn't done much except for this season. Marist has been consistently above average but not State Finals consistent like the other two. How about Naz in that top group with either BR out or Marist out?

Divisions will be determined after the season. If Naz wins 7A and runs table maybe they will be top group.

 

[MC63]

It’s like Obamacare, you vote to approve it first then you get to find out what the plan is.... divisions, crossovers, etc.... ESCC are suckers for sure!

No political posts allowed -- especially stupid ones. thank you.

 

[Oddy]

I liked things the way they were.

 

[Irish LB]

I liked things the way they were.

Me too

 

[NazDad]

Only the schools that aren’t good and looking for any easy route they can find to find wins. Kansas is at the bottom of the Big 12 should they get to go be a better team in the MAC?

Is there really a reason to bring the Jayhawks into this????? They would be with St. Joe's, Leo and Marian of The Heights. - RCJH

 

[TonPlugZeroLock]

I put this as a post when it was the "Rumor" still...

1
Loyola
Benet
Marist
M.C.

2
Brother Rice
Nazareth
Montini
Notre Dame

3
JCA
Provi
Rita
St. Larry

4
Fenwick
St. Viator
Marmion
De La Salle


5
Marian Central
St. Pats
St. Iggy
Carmel

6
Depaul
Leo
Marian
St. Joes

 

[pjjp]

Divisions will be determined after the season. If Naz wins 7A and runs table maybe they will be top group.

What a tremendous opportunity it would be for Naz to be in a division with Loyola, Marist and BR or MC. I'm guessing Naz will more than prove their competitiveness this Friday against Marist, even though they are a much lower enrollment than the schools in that possible division.

 

[No Bias---Just Reality]

Why would Brother Rice and Marist be placed with Loyola and MC? Brother Rice hasn't done much except for this season. Marist has been consistently above average but not State Finals consistent like the other two. How about Naz in that top group with either BR out or Marist out?

How often does Nazareth beat Marist? They may this year and may have at some point in past but many years Nazareth has a great season but can’t beat Marist. Last year Nazareth could easily have been a state champion and they lost 42-0 to Marist... so how consistently do you think they can come out of a division with 8a powers like Loyola and Marist with wins? One dominant year in 7a with a once in a generation group of talent doesn’t make for the ability to beat Loyola and Marist on an ongoing basis.

 

[Wittymoniker1]

No political posts allowed -- especially stupid ones. thank you.

By you pointing out that it was a "stupid" one makes your post political. LOL! You're still the man, though.

 

[No Bias---Just Reality]

What a tremendous opportunity it would be for Naz to be in a division with Loyola, Marist and BR or MC. I'm guessing Naz will more than prove their competitiveness this Friday against Marist, even though they are a much lower enrollment than the schools in that possible division.

See my last post.... they could beat Marist this year 100-0 and it doesn’t mean squat for next year. You have to look at ability to compete year in and year out to put them in the same division... Nazareth was state runner up last year and were skunked by Marist who lost to Loyola.... if they can’t compete with those 2 in a year like last year then just because they can this year doesn’t mean they should be grouped together.

 

[TonPlugZeroLock]

How often does Nazareth best Marist? They may this year and may have at some point in past but many years Nazareth has a great season but can’t beat Marist. Last year Nazareth could easily have been a state champion and they lost 42-0 to Marist... so how consistently do you think they can come out of a division with 8a powers like Loyola and Marist with wins? One dominant year in 7a with a once in a generation group of talent doesn’t make for the ability to beat Loyola and Marist on an ongoing basis.

I think thats a serious thing to look at. If Naz wins 7a this year people will naturally want them up. But this group is special. Many Many 3 year starters. By enrollment they are only a 4a school. (I essentially understand that NOBODY feels bad for them if they're up in group 1)

Look at Montini. 2015 was a special group and they won 6a, following 2 years they were out before the 2nd round. Now they're back in 5a. (Just talking Playoffs, I understand they just beat loyola which kind of kills my point. But that seemed like a perfect storm kind of thing.)

 

[pjjp]

See my last post.... they could beat Marist this year 100-0 and it doesn’t mean squat for next year. You have to look at ability to compete year in and year out to put them in the same division... Nazareth was state runner up last year and were skunked by Marist who lost to Loyola.... if they can’t compete with those 2 in a year like last year then just because they can this year doesn’t mean they should be grouped together.

You're discounting the continued development of Racki and his staff. They can overcome the lower enrollment disadvantage. In fact, NazDad28 doesn't think Naz will even be challenged this year. While it's true they have a great Sr. class, I think the Naz faithful, like NazDad28, would relish the opportunity to prove the Roadrunners' mettle against larger enrollment schools on a yearly basis.

 

[No Bias---Just Reality]

You're discounting the continued development of Racki and his staff. They can overcome the lower enrollment disadvantage. In fact, NazDad28 doesn't think Naz will even be challenged this year. While it's true they have a great Sr. class, I think the Naz faithful, like NazDad28, would relish the opportunity to prove the Roadrunners' mettle against larger enrollment schools on a yearly basis.

Not to be too blunt, but short of upperclassman transfers into Nazareth, there will be a palpable drop off next season (while they will still be very competitive and could win maybe a 5a title, can’t see it in 7a next year) and without said transfers the potential for a HUGE drop off in 2020. And those kids will be paying the price against Loyola for this years success. Sound familiar? Success factor sucks when implemented by the IHSA but it’s okay when done in conference? At least the IHSA doesn’t punish you until the playoffs, when done in conference could keep you out of playoffs.

 

[pjjp]

Not to be too blunt, but short of upperclassman transfers into Nazareth, there will be a palpable drop off next season (while they will still be very competitive and could win maybe a 5a title, can’t see it in 7a next year) and without said transfers the potential for a HUGE drop off in 2020. And those kids will be paying the price against Loyola for this years success. Sound familiar? Success factor sucks when implemented by the IHSA but it’s okay when done in conference? At least the IHSA doesn’t punish you until the playoffs, when done in conference could keep you out of playoffs.

Full disclosure: the previous posts were in jest.

Of course, one needs to discount the great class that comes along every so often. Not sure what to believe about this new merger, in terms of the details. Someone in this thread alleges that they are only going to look back 2 years for a school's success. I believe Edgy originally posted a 5-year look back. There are pros and cons to 5 versus 2 years. Not sure what will actually be used.

I've tried to find some type of official announcement online regarding the ESCC vote and/or the merger. Haven't been able to find anything. Maybe they are waiting until after the season to make the official announcement, when they can presumably detail the divisions as well.

 

[RetiredReferee]

Why six divisions of four, instead of four divisions of six?

 

[eireog]

Not to be too blunt, but short of upperclassman transfers into Nazareth, there will be a palpable drop off next season (while they will still be very competitive and could win maybe a 5a title, can’t see it in 7a next year) and without said transfers the potential for a HUGE drop off in 2020. And those kids will be paying the price against Loyola for this years success. Sound familiar? Success factor sucks when implemented by the IHSA but it’s okay when done in conference? At least the IHSA doesn’t punish you until the playoffs, when done in conference could keep you out of playoffs.

I honestly don’t have a problem with success factor. I have a problem with it when only certain types of schools are singled out for said success factor. I’m glad it’s going to be used to keep the balance in the conference. Everyone in the conference will be looked at, not just a certain few.

 

[DigitalCy]

Rumor has it that the conference name is going to be CCL/ESCC or some variation of it because a certain few schools in the city cannot let go of the CCL name

 

[No Bias---Just Reality]

Rumor has it that the conference name is going to be CCL/ESCC or some variation of it because a certain few schools in the city cannot let go of the CCL name

Ridiculous and further evidence that this isn’t a merger by ESCC rather a joining of the CCL and foreshadowing of how they will screw ESCC teams in divisions and protect CCL teams

 

[No Bias---Just Reality]

I honestly don’t have a problem with success factor. I have a problem with it when only certain types of schools are singled out for said success factor. I’m glad it’s going to be used to keep the balance in the conference. Everyone in the conference will be looked at, not just a certain few.

Oh so they will bump 8a schools like Marist, Loyola, and Brother rice to which higher division? The Big 10? Riiight! So let’s find the best school with a 5a (multiplied) enrollment and bump them up to an 8a division. The 8 schools should be together (Loyola, Marist, brother rice, and Notre Dame) and after that I don’t care how the rest breaks down.

 

[ThunderPapa]

You're discounting the continued development of Racki and his staff. They can overcome the lower enrollment disadvantage. In fact, NazDad28 doesn't think Naz will even be challenged this year. While it's true they have a great Sr. class, I think the Naz faithful, like NazDad28, would relish the opportunity to prove the Roadrunners' mettle against larger enrollment schools on a yearly basis.

Really appreciate you supplying me with a good laugh. Much needed on a slow day.

 

[ThunderPapa]

Not to be too blunt, but short of upperclassman transfers into Nazareth, there will be a palpable drop off next season (while they will still be very competitive and could win maybe a 5a title, can’t see it in 7a next year) and without said transfers the potential for a HUGE drop off in 2020. And those kids will be paying the price against Loyola for this years success. Sound familiar? Success factor sucks when implemented by the IHSA but it’s okay when done in conference? At least the IHSA doesn’t punish you until the playoffs, when done in conference could keep you out of playoffs.

You bring up an extremely good point, why should the 2020 class have to be put into a tougher conference based off last years team? The roadrunners are extremely senior heavy this year and will lose all 5 starting offensive lineman up front and most of their offensive threats. It will be interesting to see if they can compete next year.

 

[godfthr53]

Ok now someone out there with time go get last 2 years regular season records, boys and football enrollment so we can figure this ish out.

 

[eireog]

Oh so they will bump 8a schools like Marist, Loyola, and Brother rice to which higher division? The Big 10? Riiight! So let’s find the best school with a 5a (multiplied) enrollment and bump them up to an 8a division. The 8 schools should be together (Loyola, Marist, brother rice, and Notre Dame) and after that I don’t care how the rest breaks down.

Teams will move up and down based on success or lack of success. From what I’ve read on this thread, things will be reevaluated every two years. I haven’t heard about the big 10 but the lower division teams will be bumped back to the parish leagues I’ve heard.

 

[No Bias---Just Reality]

Teams will move up and down based on success or lack of success. From what I’ve read on this thread, things will be reevaluated every two years. I haven’t heard about the big 10 but the lower division teams will be bumped back to the parish leagues I’ve heard.

Point being you can’t bump schools like Marist and Loyola any higher so they can’t be adjusted up for being an 8a power.... the last thing you should do is send them a 5a sacrifice as a reward.

 

[eireog]

I don’t see it as a reward or punishment but rather some way to keep a competitive balance.

 

[No Bias---Just Reality]

You bring up an extremely good point, why should the 2020 class have to be put into a tougher conference based off last years team? The roadrunners are extremely senior heavy this year and will lose all 5 starting offensive lineman up front and most of their offensive threats. It will be interesting to see if they can compete next year.

They will definitely compete next year. They have a big and strong group of juniors who start now and others who are role players who will become full time next year and a small (4 kids) core of strong talent that are sophomores this year on varsity as role players (plus the full time qb) and one freshman stud. It’s 2020 that they need to be worried about if nothing changes (imho).

 

[No Bias---Just Reality]

I don’t see it as a reward or punishment but rather some way to keep a competitive balance.

Fine, semantics, I don’t care about intention I care about outcome.

 

[pjjp]

Teams will move up and down based on success or lack of success. From what I’ve read on this thread, things will be reevaluated every two years. I haven’t heard about the big 10 but the lower division teams will be bumped back to the parish leagues I’ve heard.

The fact that teams will be reevaluated every two years leads me to believe they will only look back 2 years for the initial division setup as well.

 

[Oddy]

Ridiculous and further evidence that this isn’t a merger by ESCC rather a joining of the CCL and foreshadowing of how they will screw ESCC teams in divisions and protect CCL teams

This

 

[Gene K.]

How about City Suburban Catholic League = CSCL
Consolidated Catholic League = CCL

 

[eireog]

The fact that teams will be reevaluated every two years leads me to believe they will only look back 2 years for the initial division setup as well.

From what I’ve read and heard that’s how the divisions will be determined. It’ll be based on 2017-2018 records.

 

[ThunderPapa]

How about City Suburban Catholic League = CSCL
Consolidated Catholic League = CCL

Love the CSCL name idea.

 

[JCHillmen]

What is the lower level plan? Soph teams? Jv?

 

[DigitalCy]

What is the lower level plan? Soph teams? Jv?

part of the structuring will be based on football numbers.

 

[ejande]

My suggestions for the ESCL/CCL:

Basing the initial divisions off of this 70/15/15 formula is fine, but after that they should rotate every 2 years based on actual divisional records - worst team goes down, best team goes up. Sure, this year's Naz team may bump them up to a tougher division, but it would only impact 3 games a year for 2 years.

The schedule should be 3 division games, 3 crossovers mutually agreed upon to protect rivalries, limit travel, and balance schedule, and 3 true non-conference games.

I think that would be a nice balance of challenging division games, local/traditional games, and flexibility for programs to schedule as they need to (for example, St. Joe's has different scheduling priorities than Loyola). You don't stress AD's to schedule too many non-con games, you don't have any awkwardness like the DVC scheduling home and homes.

This - big conferences with several small divisions and promotion/relegation - could be a model for other leagues. It strikes a nice balance between having the majority of your schedule predetermined and having scheduling flexibility to allow for individual schools to schedule as they need to.

 

[caravan8]

The schedule should be 3 division games, 3 crossovers mutually agreed upon to protect rivalries, limit travel, and balance schedule, and 3 true non-conference games

Would it make it easier to do 3 division games, 4 crossover games (each division is paired up and they play each school in the other division for 2 seasons) and then 2 non conference games? Rivalry games that don’t fall inside the division or crossover can be scheduled on open weeks if desired. I like the large conference with smaller divisions, brings in the possibility of playing some different teams

 

[Irish LB]

How often does Nazareth beat Marist? They may this year and may have at some point in past but many years Nazareth has a great season but can’t beat Marist. Last year Nazareth could easily have been a state champion and they lost 42-0 to Marist... so how consistently do you think they can come out of a division with 8a powers like Loyola and Marist with wins? One dominant year in 7a with a once in a generation group of talent doesn’t make for the ability to beat Loyola and Marist on an ongoing basis.

I understand your point about 5a schools playing 8a etc but Naz-Marist historically are pretty even tough games. The last two years are the outlier.

2008 Naz 35, Marist 21
2009 Marist 35, Naz 14
2010 Marist 21, Naz 14
2011 Naz 33, Marist 20
2012 Marist 24, Naz 21
2013 Marist 42, Naz 37
2014 Naz 37, Marist 21
2015 Naz 62, Marist 45
2016 Marist 44, Naz 14
2017 Marist 42, Naz 0

 

[3OrangeWhips]

Ok now someone out there with time go get last 2 years regular season records, boys and football enrollment so we can figure this ish out.

I started looking at the enrollment piece...

Estimated male enrollment based on IHSA site. I certainly could be off by a few here and there (easier to figure out the all boy schools) but I think this is an accurate ranking as of today.

1. Loyola - 1,000
2. Marist - 800
3. Notre Dame - 750
4. St. Ignatius - 725
5. Brother Rice - 695
6. Benet - 650
7. St. Patrick - 625
8. Mount Carmel - 620
9. Carmel Catholic - 600
10. Fenwick - 590
11. St. Rita - 575
12. Marmion - 525
13. Marian Catholic - 500
14. St. Laurence - 480
15. Providence - 465
16. De La Salle - 450
17. St. Viator - 420
18. Nazareth - 375
19. Marian Central - 325
20. Montini - 315
21. Joliet Catholic - 310
22. DePaul - 210
23. St. Joseph 170
24. Leo - 130