EV/hybrids were 20% of new cars sold last year

dorndawg

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Sales of all-electric vehicles and hybrid models reached 20% of new car and truck sales in the U.S. for the first time last year — marking a landmark year for “green” vehicles but coming at a slower pace than many had previously anticipated.
Auto data firm Motor Intelligence reports more than 3.2 million “electrified” vehicles were sold last year. That includes 1.9 million hybrid vehicles, including plug-in models, and 1.3 million all-electric models.
Sales of traditional vehicles with gas or diesel internal combustion engines continued to dominate, but declined to 79.8%, falling under 80% for the first time in modern automotive history, according to the data.

 
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Maroon Eagle

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Not surprising.

I think we all knew the numbers of EV/Hybrids sold would increase.

Also no surprise: Those particular new sales are mostly hybrids which make up almost 12 percent of the total new sales.

If new EV (not counting hybrids) sales go up to 15 percent, I’d be more impressed.
 

patdog

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Not surprising.

I think we all knew the numbers of EV/Hybrids sold would increase.

Also no surprise: Those particular new sales are mostly hybrids which make up almost 12 percent of the total new sales.

If new EV (not counting hybrids) sales go up to 15 percent, I’d be more impressed.
I think the market and user needs can support 15-20% total electric vehicles, and maybe in time 30%-40%. But I don't see it ever going any higher than that.
 
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Maroon Eagle

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I think the market and user needs can support 15-20% total electric vehicles, and maybe in time 30%-40%. But I don't see it ever going any higher than that.
If it goes higher than 40 percent, it’ll be because of infrastructure and technology changes as well as fleet sales.

I wouldn’t be surprised if Tesla has increased fleet sales to federal agencies given Musk’s influence in the incoming administration.
 
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OG Goat Holder

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EVs are perfect for stop and go, wherever that might be. Even busses.

Hybrids are best for distance, and most all commuter cars should be hybrid.

Gas, jet fuel, diesel still needed for more specific things.

New ICE engines for passenger vehicles needs to go away. That's the big factor in this country. Too many folks driving. We have to use our oil to fuel big trucks, airplanes and other necessary things. I really don't think it should be that difficult.
 

johnson86-1

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EVs are perfect for stop and go, wherever that might be. Even busses.

Hybrids are best for distance, and most all commuter cars should be hybrid.

Gas, jet fuel, diesel still needed for more specific things.

New ICE engines for passenger vehicles needs to go away. That's the big factor in this country. Too many folks driving. We have to use our oil to fuel big trucks, airplanes and other necessary things. I really don't think it should be that difficult.
I would think the downtime for charging would be a no-go for buses right now. I know places have been electrifying their bus fleet, but I think that's because of massive subsidies and idiocy, not because they make practical or economic sense.
 
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johnson86-1

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I think the market and user needs can support 15-20% total electric vehicles, and maybe in time 30%-40%. But I don't see it ever going any higher than that.
I think much more than 40% of drivers could use an electric vehicle with today's ranges if they could make them economic (I think a big majority of two car families could use one, and a ton of single drivers could too provided they are not in multifamily housing and have a garage or carport to charge in at night.

But if you compare like with like, the economics are terrible. As far as I can tell, the bottom range for a 7 seat full EV that has comparable room to a Pilot/Explorer/Grand Highlander type ICE SUV is $90k. That's basically requiring 7 seats and some decent storage behind the third row when it's up. I can do a decked out version of a Pilot at just over $50k I think. So you're talking a hell of a lot of gas and oil changes and engine repairs, plus by the time you get there the battery may be shot.

Not sure how much of that differential is an economy of scales issue and how much is a technological challenge as far as batter efficiency and weight.

I think the economics get better as you compare a 5 seater to 5 seater, but I can't use that so haven't gotten into the details as far as how much space some of the EVs really have compared to normal 4 door sedans.
 

dorndawg

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I would think the downtime for charging would be a no-go for buses right now. I know places have been electrifying their bus fleet, but I think that's because of massive subsidies and idiocy, not because they make practical or economic sense.
I'm curious why you think that? Buses typically don't run anywhere near 24/7 in most cities. To me buses and delivery vehicles like USPS, UPS, etc are perfect candidates to be electric.
 

OG Goat Holder

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I would think the downtime for charging would be a no-go for buses right now. I know places have been electrifying their bus fleet, but I think that's because of massive subsidies and idiocy, not because they make practical or economic sense.
You'd be wrong. They are everywhere. And yes, there are grants available for them, and the chargers.
 

maroonmadman

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I would think the downtime for charging would be a no-go for buses right now. I know places have been electrifying their bus fleet, but I think that's because of massive subsidies and idiocy, not because they make practical or economic sense.
You are forgetting busses that run from electricity supplied from an overhead cable and not a battery. Seattle and other cities have been doing this since the early 1900's. This is a common way of powering busses, trolleys and such in many cities and does not rely upon batteries.
 

horshack.sixpack

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Sales of all-electric vehicles and hybrid models reached 20% of new car and truck sales in the U.S. for the first time last year — marking a landmark year for “green” vehicles but coming at a slower pace than many had previously anticipated.
Auto data firm Motor Intelligence reports more than 3.2 million “electrified” vehicles were sold last year. That includes 1.9 million hybrid vehicles, including plug-in models, and 1.3 million all-electric models.
Sales of traditional vehicles with gas or diesel internal combustion engines continued to dominate, but declined to 79.8%, falling under 80% for the first time in modern automotive history, according to the data.

I will take a serious look at hybrid for my next car, not EV though. 5 years ago my perception was that all of that tech was too new to be long term reliable. If EVs have done nothing else, they've pushed battery tech forward to a point that I would consider hybrid.
 

johnson86-1

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You'd be wrong. They are everywhere. And yes, there are grants available for them, and the chargers.
To be clear, there are grants for the buses and the chargers, and the manufactureres also get credits. So basically they are federally provided buses.

That's why I said I know places are electrifying their bus fleet. I just meant I don't think it makes sense to do so.
You are forgetting busses that run from electricity supplied from an overhead cable and not a battery. Seattle and other cities have been doing this since the early 1900's. This is a common way of powering busses, trolleys and such in many cities and does not rely upon batteries.
I knew plenty of trolleys/light rail were powered by that. Wasn't aware that people were running busses tied to overhead cable. I would have thought before trying to have buses run while maintaining contact with an overhead line they would just put tracks down and do a trolley. How do they keep them in contact with the power source?
 

thatsbaseball

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To be clear, there are grants for the buses and the chargers, and the manufactureres also get credits. So basically they are federally provided buses.

That's why I said I know places are electrifying their bus fleet. I just meant it I don't think it makes sense to do so.

I knew plenty of trolleys/light rail were powered by that. Wasn't aware that people were running busses tied to overhead cable. I would have thought before trying to have buses run while maintaining contact with an overhead line they would just put tracks down and do a trolley. How do they keep them in contact with the power source?
Would there be a problem in Jackson because of the shoes draped over the lines ? ***
 

OG Goat Holder

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To be clear, there are grants for the buses and the chargers, and the manufactureres also get credits. So basically they are federally provided buses.

That's why I said I know places are electrifying their bus fleet. I just meant I don't think it makes sense to do so.
I don't understand your stance against them. Grants have funded busses and other transit vehicles forever. It's literally what funding is for. These are just electric and not gas. Many of the busses out there now are still ICE.

Do you want everybody to just drive everywhere and have no transit? Even if you do, that's a separate discussion altogether.

I know the wave these days is anti-government, but you literally HAVE to have government regulation for society to work. Many investments pay off in other ways besides just sheer cost. This cut/cut/cut mindset is absolutely asinine, ESPECIALLY in regards to transportation.

Do you think we should shut down the Washington Metro simply because the fares don't pay for the initial construction and maintenance, and it's subsidized in other ways (including grants)?
 
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johnson86-1

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I'm curious why you think that? Buses typically don't run anywhere near 24/7 in most cities. To me buses and delivery vehicles like USPS, UPS, etc are perfect candidates to be electric.
I was assuming most buses run on a loop of their route for about 10-12 hours in a day and that they would need to be recharged during the day. But I guess in reality that's probably only 150ish miles of driving depending on how fast they go and how many stops they have, so maybe they can do that and recharge over night.
 
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johnson86-1

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I don't understand your stance against them. Grants have funded busses and other transit vehicles forever. It's literally what funding is for. These are just electric and not gas. Many of the busses out there now are still ICE.

Do you want everybody to just drive everywhere and have no transit? Even if you do, that's a separate discussion altogether.

I know the wave these days is anti-government, but you literally HAVE to have government regulation for society to work. Many investments pay off in other ways besides just sheer cost. This cut/cut/cut mindset is absolutely asinine.

Do you think we should shut down the Washington Metro simply because the fares don't pay for the initial construction and maintenance, and it's subsidized in other ways (including grants)?
I just meant that ideally municipalities or whatever transit authority would pick whatever mode of transportation was most practical and economical. If you want to subsidize public transit, that's a policy decision. But subsidizing the manufacturer and the buyer of a particular tech seems 17ed up. If that's really needed, the tech is no where near ready. If it's not needed, you are just handing out free money for no reason.
 

dorndawg

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But subsidizing the manufacturer and the buyer of a particular tech seems 17ed up. If that's really needed, the tech is no where near ready. If it's not needed, you are just handing out free money for no reason.
I'm just thankful we will get this straightened out very soon.***************************************************
 
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Walkthedawg

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EV and hybrid are two completely different things. I think hybrids should probably account for close to 70% of the market, with the remaining 30% split between EVs and combustion engines.
Two different things indeed. And a hybrid is one expensive car to fix when major systems go wrong. EV is more simplistic… but the race is on in them to add useless gadgets (color changing lights, complex door opening, four wheel steering, key card panels for systems start, etc etc.) that will be expensive to fix. I mean…. Why do we need 4 wheel steering?

This race in technology is going to leave lower income people in the dust. Retired ASC mechanics who work out of the backyard cannot fix Tesla sensors. A hybrid starter can cost 1,000 to 1,500 bucks to just buy on common hybrids. Then you have that easily in labor to change it because you have to separate the engine and transmission. A starter for a 2000 Chevrolet truck? 150 bucks at autozone and any backyard DIYer can install it.

The pushback you mostly see for these vehicles is not spite…or anti-government… or “frick the greenies”… people are genuinely afraid they cannot afford to fix them. And they may be right. If you buy a 150,000 mile Tesla right now and screen goes out.. who do you call? Now can a blue collar worker do that easily? That is the pushback and that is the situation no one has an answer for.
 
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golferdog

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True. Hybrids are practical.
I don't see how EV sales can make a significant climb until more infrastructure is in place. It's going to take a while imo. Hybrids are the way to go for now, I will just never be on board with battery powered cars. There has to be a better fuel source out there. How are we going to effectively recycle/dispose of 330MM batteries with hazardous substances in them?
 

aTotal360

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I don't see how EV sales can make a significant climb until more infrastructure is in place.
I saw an Elon interview a long time ago and he said something to the effect of "I'm a charging company that makes cars". I thought that was odd, but it turns out to be the secret sauce.
 
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dawgman42

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I guess my household added to the statistics. The wife got her new Highlander Hybrid and loves it. Automakers are really screwing up not pushing true hybrids more with their engineering/development team and sales. A planned transition driven by consumer interest would sure be a better track than tip-toeing on the political eggshells that has unfolded the last several years.
 
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OG Goat Holder

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I just meant that ideally municipalities or whatever transit authority would pick whatever mode of transportation was most practical and economical. If you want to subsidize public transit, that's a policy decision. But subsidizing the manufacturer and the buyer of a particular tech seems 17ed up. If that's really needed, the tech is no where near ready. If it's not needed, you are just handing out free money for no reason.
It IS needed. Folks aren't replacing busses that are in working order. Grants come with strings attached, you must use the equipment for a certain amount of time. When you get a new one, you get electric, and you get the charger too, that's really the only true new part of it. Then you don't need to buy gas........which......has a LOT of upside, without getting into the political crap. We really all should agree that we should be attempting to use less oil, regardless of where it comes from.

Again, electric power is perfect for stop and go traffic that can charge daily.
 
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NWADawg

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I will take a serious look at hybrid for my next car, not EV though. 5 years ago my perception was that all of that tech was too new to be long term reliable. If EVs have done nothing else, they've pushed battery tech forward to a point that I would consider hybrid.
I drive a hybrid f150. Had it for 3 years and love it. Crap tons of power and better mpg. A
Some articles say they are less reliable. So far 57k miles with no issues at all.
 

The Peeper

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As well as people with mortgages, or travel by air, or use GPS, or eat sugar, or use computer chips*********
Did yall miss the part that said "if its not needed"? Way too much money handed out in pork barrels and tacked on to both state and federal bills just to get something pushed through.
 
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57stratdawg

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A family of 1 EV and 1 Gas / Hybrid makes sense to me.

You can use the EV to get the kids to school and soccer practice, then use the hybrid if you need to go see Grandma in Carthage.
 

dorndawg

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Did yall miss the part that said "if its not needed"? Way too much money handed out in pork barrels and tacked on to both state and federal bills just to get something pushed through.
One person's "need" is another person's "problem" - that's government in a nutshell right there.
 

horshack.sixpack

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As well as people with mortgages, or travel by air, or use GPS, or eat sugar, or use computer chips*********
Or drive on paved roads...take away federal funding and MS, and most other states, lack funding to build/maintain hwy infrastructure.
 

ronpolk

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Did yall miss the part that said "if it’s not needed"? Way too much money handed out in pork barrels and tacked on to both state and federal bills just to get something pushed through.
I understood what you were replying to… however, your reply said “government subsidies in a nutshell”… as in all subsidies aren’t needed or shouldn’t exist. I think most people should be ok with the government propping up a new technology for a bit, especially if it has potential to be transformative. But at some point a product has to be able to stand alone. I’m sure there is a long list of tech advances that benefit us greatly today that started with government subsidies.
 
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I think much more than 40% of drivers could use an electric vehicle with today's ranges if they could make them economic (I think a big majority of two car families could use one, and a ton of single drivers could too provided they are not in multifamily housing and have a garage or carport to charge in at night.

But if you compare like with like, the economics are terrible. As far as I can tell, the bottom range for a 7 seat full EV that has comparable room to a Pilot/Explorer/Grand Highlander type ICE SUV is $90k. That's basically requiring 7 seats and some decent storage behind the third row when it's up. I can do a decked out version of a Pilot at just over $50k I think. So you're talking a hell of a lot of gas and oil changes and engine repairs, plus by the time you get there the battery may be shot.

Not sure how much of that differential is an economy of scales issue and how much is a technological challenge as far as batter efficiency and weight.

I think the economics get better as you compare a 5 seater to 5 seater, but I can't use that so haven't gotten into the details as far as how much space some of the EVs really have compared to normal 4 door sedans.
Yeah, the 7-seat thing is definitely an issue. I'm guessing the $90k model you're thinking of is the three-row Rivian? There's the upcoming VW Bus reboot, which looks cool and is pretty spacious, but suffers from low range (230-ish miles) and unimpressive charging speeds. It costs $60k - $65k.

And then there's the Kia EV9, which is probably the most competitive three-row EV right now -- same or more passenger room than Pilots and Explorers, same or better in cargo room, too, 300 miles of range, very fast charging, and solidly equipped in the upper $50s or mid $60s. I think it qualifies for the full $7,500 tax credit currently. I'm sure the next administration will tighten the regs related to the credit, though who knows whether Congress will repeal the whole law.

But that's about it for EV options like that. There are great hybrid choices in that range, though. Hybrid Highlander and Grand Highlander, the Sienna, the hybrid Aviator, the Volvo XC90, hybrid Kia Sorento, etc. My wife's got a three-row plug-in hybrid Pacifica minivan that's been really useful. 30 miles of EV range plugging in to a normal wall socket overnight, then 30 mpg on gas. Same massive passenger and cargo space as a normal ICE minivan, too. Great for normal commuting, which is almost entirely electric, but also great for road trips, especially if you rent a house or cabin so that you can recharge every night. (Granted, it's a Chrysler, so we got an extended warranty on the thing.)

As for hybrids in general, we've driven them since 2010 in our house and I agree with others on here that they should become the norm. I had a Ford Fusion hybrid for over a decade and loved it. Plenty of room, great ride, and between 35 - 40 mpg the entire time. I had to pay for a single repair in 13 years of ownership, a $300 throttle body assembly. Same story for a Prius we had for a while. The plugin RAV4 Prime I'm driving now will hopefully continue the trend. 40 - 50 miles of EV range from overnight charging in a wall socket, nearly 40 mpg on gas, and faster than it should be (302 horsepower with tons of torque).
 

dorndawg

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On a related note:

Tesla is throttling down Cybertruck production as it shifts workers to Model Y production because inventory of the electric pickup truck is piling up.

The automaker had planned a production capacity of 250,000 Cybertrucks per year at Gigafactory Texas, and CEO Elon Musk said he could see this being ramped up to 500,000 per year.

However, things are not going in that direction.

 

maroonmadman

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To be clear, there are grants for the buses and the chargers, and the manufactureres also get credits. So basically they are federally provided buses.

That's why I said I know places are electrifying their bus fleet. I just meant I don't think it makes sense to do so.

I knew plenty of trolleys/light rail were powered by that. Wasn't aware that people were running busses tied to overhead cable. I would have thought before trying to have buses run while maintaining contact with an overhead line they would just put tracks down and do a trolley. How do they keep them in contact with the power source?
Just like a trolley. They have an overhead boom that is spring loaded to maintain contact with the overhead cables. Some sort of V shaped roller that was actually making contact with the cable which would articulate so the bus could make turns and change lanes. Back then (late 70's early 80's) Seattle had large articulating busses that ran like this. Sometimes one of the booms would lose contact and the driver would go out and use a special non-conducting pole to put it back on track.
 

mcdawg22

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I notice my mailman’s truck automatically shuts off when he stops which I assume helps a lot considering how much stop and go they do. My wife’s car has it too but we always disable it because the mechanic in me doesn’t want to know what a new starter will cost in 2 years.