OBVIOUSLY.
, PSU needs to raise out-of-state tuition. PSU needs cash money, and the well-heeled will pay it.FC/OT: Forbes List of New Public/Private Ivies…
- Thread starter Midnighter
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OBVIOUSLY.
, PSU needs to raise out-of-state tuition. PSU needs cash money, and the well-heeled will pay it.This doesn’t have anything to do with what we were discussing.
Regardless, even ignoring that this is a non sequitur, Miami of Ohio isn’t a better university academically, and it would make sense that it would be cheaper for you as an in-state Ohioan, and PSU would be more expensive, since it’s out-of-state.
What’s your point?
The point is I live in NC as a Penn State grad. It would cost 57k for one of my children to go to PSU. There is no merit offered, other than a pittance of 8k to the lucky few. My child, a 4.0 student instead goes to Miami (which is superior in all data - grad school acceptance, teacher student ratio, dorm quality, availability of classes, future earnings, lifetime value) cost me 27k per year. People ask me why Miami? I say because it’s a savvier university, better run and more economical than my alma mater. There are other state schools doing the same - UNC, William and Mary, Saint Mary’s College of Maryland to name a few. They are outcompeting PSU who keeps increasing university park enrollment and price due to the greed of those who make $$$ off of university leadership. Remember, PSU was not always a 60,000 students. We had a chance to be a Miami and we pissed it away. Btw, someone with a NY accent told the BoT just that at one point. PSU has become an average state university. That’s my f’in point.
But Miami doesn’t have Zeno’s or The Phyrst…. A bargain at any price!!
Ah, yeah ... that's right ... I remember you now.
Yeah, no ... PSU is obviously superior to Miami of Ohio, but that's neither here nor there. You can try to rationalize all you want, but there's a clear distinction there.
Being in NC, why aren't you choosing the superior and cheaper ACTUAL in-state options, rather than going off to a second-tier state university (OSU being the superior option, if you wanted to dive into the depressive state that is Ohio), out of state? And where are the elite privates, who typically throw gobs of money at worthy and/or needy candidates? Miami of Ohio HAS to throw money at out-of-staters. People in civilization don't know it exists, or they confuse it with the fun university in the tropics, and then get disappointed when you clarify that it's the one in depressing Ohio.
And, again, this has nothing to do with the issue that our out-of-state tuition is competitive with peers (of which Miami of Ohio isn't one), and our in-state is slightly higher, but easily could be lower (and we could provide more financial aid), if only the state kept pace with its prior level of funding, and stayed even close to that of other actual state universities. We're fighting with one hand tied behind our back, and doing a hell of a job, actually.
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Most of this just sounds like bitterness (for some reason) than actual rational critique. For starters, PSU is consistently ranked higher than Miami (OH) and has a generally better "rep" among the general public. Can you get an outstanding education at Miami (OH)? I'm sure you absolutely can, just like you can at virtually any 4 year institution - most of college is more about what an individual makes of the opportunities in front of them than the particular school.
That being said, it sounds like Miami (OH) was "more affordable" because of merit aid for your child. And that's great that it was more affordable. But that has nothing to do with the out of state sticker price for there or PSU or any school. Miami (OH)'s sticker price out of state is actually $57,572 which is more than it costs for PSU out of state. The difference here is that less popular "buyer" schools like Miami (OH) tend to have to give more in merit aid to entice students to attend while popular schools with tons of applicants - which definitely describes PSU - are considered "sellers" and only give out meager amounts of merit aid. That is unfortunate for students interested in PSU who cannot afford it, but the reality is that like most flagship public schools in the northern half of the country they have zero problems filling their classes with students who are able/willing to pay the full price tag. Pretty much all Big Ten schools are very stingy when it comes to merit aid (and same goes for other popular and well regarded public schools like those in Virginia, North Carolina, Florida and Texas).
I'm not sure what "chance" PSU had to "be a Miami" unless you mean a school that is less well known and popular and has more trouble getting students to attend. That's... not a goal. Miami (OH) wishes they were PSU (or Ohio State or Michigan or whatever) so that they could be more selective with acceptances and have to give out less aid. I mean Miami (OH) admits 85% of applying students - they aren't a particularly competitive school (PSU by comparison admits 54% to University Park, not exactly the most selective but a good bit more competitive)
I don't get what you mean by "savvier" for those other school, but the publics there - UNC and William & Mary - aren't remotely affordable for out of state students either so they are lousy examples to counteract a point that Penn State costs too much for out of state students. Both of them actually cost a good bit more out of state than PSU does.
Ironically, if you are in North Carolina, I don't get why you'd be complaining at all. That's one of the states that does a massive amount of funding of state schools and is why UNC Chapel Hill and NC St are actually quite cheap for in state (and there are some decent secondary public schools there). Out of state is still ridiculous but great to be an in state student.
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I think their methodology is absolute trash when it comes to excluding the "+" portion of the Ivies+ (MIT, Stanford, UChicago, Duke), and, yet, including schools like Vandy, Carnegie Mellon, Johns Hopkins, etc. ... all of whom are already known to be as prestigious, or more prestigious than, schools like Duke. It's dumb, and it's unnecessarily potentially harmful to the excluded schools ... but then I remember that it's Forbes.
How long ago did your daughter go to Miami(OH)? Your assessment of superiority of Miami to Penn State seems like all opinion. Please, provide data comparing the two schools to support your stance. I provided rankings above from one source and PSU was higher in all major categories. I don’t study this data though, maybe there’s other data contrary to what I provided. I’d be happy to look at it when you post it. Thanks.
So, this is the OOS cost to attend Miami (OH) from 2022-2023. Did your daughter attend a long time ago, or are you telling me they are knocking off nearly $34/year for OOS tuition. If so, that seems like a desperate move to attract OOS students. Bottom line is that not all situations are the same for everyone. Kids and families have to make decisions that are best for them. Congrats on your daughter finding somewhere she liked and worked for you as a family. Best of luck to her!
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This is the current estimates from the school’s website. I realize the sticker price isn’t always the actual price, but these are the starting numbers.
My daughter starts her fourth year of med school today at the University of Cincinnati. She went to Miami, graduated in 3 years Biology pre-med. She had five scholarships at Miami. I paid 27k x 3 all in (tuition, food, lodging). I was so happy with Miami and her hard work, I bought her a car. She graduated with a 3.98.
Did I want her to go to PSU? Of course. Do you know what they offered a kid who had 7 honors program admissions? 8k off a year - the highest amount they could offer.
27k x 3 and a much better med school entrance rate vs. 46-50k x 3 for the daughter of an alum and granddaughter of a generous booster for 50 years.
Something is wrong at PSU.
BTW, Comparing PSU to other B10 schools and saying 'see we are just like them, overpriced and underdelivering' isn't an argument, its nonsense. Mass schooling of NY/NJ and Philly suburban kids wasn't the charter for PSU. Nor was it supposed to be pricing in-state and out of state high achievers out of admissions.
Miami is one of 8 little Ivies. We could have gone that route. The alum reps like myself told the university don't rely on research dollars and high tuition, be savvy back in the early 90s. Instead, the pigs at the trough won.
Miami, UNC, William and Mary, Binghamton, all public ivies are superior to PSU and if you would travel to those campuses and meet with admissions people around the country as I have both for work and for college tours, it's quite obvious.
I'm complaining because my family devoted their lives to PSU over 50 years and the grandkids are not going. Price, Sandusky, a bunch of pigs on the BOT and the inability to be savvy (let me spell it for you, when you tour Miami, a professor meets with your kids and says this is the four-year plan, this is what is required, here's how we are going to make this work both in value and costs, when you tour PSU, you get a bunch of cheerleaders turned tour guides who gush about the social scene).
All four of my kids as townies in Chapel Hill have a simple choice - beat the in-state price and you can go OOS. So far, 3 have done it. They all could go to UNC or not. But PSU isn't even in the equation, ridiculously priced for what you are getting. Sad.
Entrance to med school Miami - 74 percent.
PSU won't divulge the number when asked point blank in person. Why?
US News is a joke, everyone in admissions knows that. I've spoken to many admissions directors who roll their eyes. I'll be on four tours next week and it will be laughed at during those tours again I'm sure.
You aren't getting the point -- savvy, attracting great students, creating an environment of value. Instead, we as alums watch our school raise prices and enrollments while enriching a board that skirts scrutiny, hides behind state affiliation and enriches themselves. My father donated more than $1M to the school thru personal donations and corporate matches and he's fed up and has been even before Sandusky.
Mission of the university. Why have PSU?
It's a bad joke. We are getting outhustled.
When I used to live in Cincinnati in the mid 80's Miami had a strong reputation and rigorous academics. It also had a beautiful campus and was referred by many to be a "Little Ivy."
The folks who laugh at US News are the ones who can't get into US News's better ranked schools, or those advocating on behalf of one of the lesser-ranked schools.
Even the goofy outlier Forbes ranking, which has PSU dreadfully low at 196, still has Miami of Ohio two ticks below PSU.
And the 8 "Little Ivies" are NESCAC schools out here in New England ... Williams, Amherst, Bowdoin, Wesleyan, Hamilton, Middlebury, Colby and Bates. Like the actual Ivies, they are prestigious (and expensive) northeastern private schools, and have been known as the Little Ivies for a long, long time.
One source refers to Miami of Ohio as a "public Ivy," but that source lists a poop-ton of public schools in that list ... including PSU (and UConn, and UDelaware, and so on).
You claim your kids had a choice - beat the in-state UNC tuition and you can go there ... but the cost of attendance at Miami of Ohio that you quoted (after scholarships) clearly is more expensive than UNC in-state. So how did they end up at Miami of Ohio if they got into UNC, but didn't meet your requirement? And UNM is a very, very pedestrian school ... at best.
At one point, PSU rocketed up the charts, so to speak ... and now the Sandusky scandal has caused fallout. It's stepped back a bit, but is still a good school, and looks to be rebounding, even as the JoeBots, who have lost their way, withhold their support and look to blame-place in the wrong place. Is it worthwhile for most out-of-state who don't have money to burn? Most likely, no ... but it's still a quality option, overall. And the school has gotten royally screwed by the state government, which has long ago largely abandoned it, compared to both its peers, and its historical level of support (before the aughts). If you simply retroactively insert that support at the same percentage it had been at one point in time, PSU would be FAR, FAR more affordable, especially for in-state students ... and there would likely be far more non-loan financial aid for the student population.
Not really. The folks who laugh at US News understand that the ranking is not based on mostly academics. It's also tuition, campus, retention rate (which ends up being tied to tuition), safety, etc. PSU's tuition as an in state school is still relatively high compared to other State universities, and that is what is keeping the ranking down because they don't consider it a good bang for your buck. In addition, because of its location, they seem to have the illusion that graduates don't earn higher incomes compared to other institutions, which is ridiculous considering the majority of graduates don't live or work in central PA. The academics has little to do with this.
I don't disagree with this. My daughter did go to PSU because that's where she wanted to be, BUT she received scholarship money all of the institutions she applied to as a non-resident. NOTHING from PSU.
This is stupid and doesn't even belong in this thread. Get over yourself--or better yet get over the deceased coach for crying out loud. He was a coach, not God.
You're not a Penn Stater ... go away. If we want some meth, we'll hit you up. Otherwise ... bye ...
So you are complaining that large flagship public schools behave like large flagship public schools. Ok. You can feel free to continue your rant but you need to understand that all peer schools for PSU are doing the same thing. your complaining has nothing to do with PSU specifically and everything to do with how large popular schools function in this day and age. None of them offer substantial discounts for the sticker price because none of them have to in order to get students to enroll.
We can all debate broad concerns with the price of higher education but it has nothing to do with PSU being any sort of outlier. People who characterize PSU as somehow being uniquely expensive or "stingy" are simple wrong when you look at the landscape of higher education in the USA.
Let me start by saying that I think your plan in your last paragraph is great and is exactly what I'd recommend to any high school senior. If you get into your flagship in state public school (and would include NC State in this case along with UNC) then go there as the value is going to likely be the best option. If you have another school - whether out of state public or private - that is comparable academically and is a similar or cheaper price than by all means consider it. Especially if the other schools feels like a better "fit" for the student.
So with that in mind, the reality is that essentially no out of state large flagship public school in the northern half of the country** will end up matching the price of in state for UNC (or no matter what state a person is in for in state). It just doesn't happen because those types of schools simply don't offer much aid. So, yes, PSU isn't going to beat that price whether you are an alumni or not. But neither will Ohio State. Or UVA. Or Michigan. Or Indiana. etc etc Schools in that part of the country have a crapload of worth applicants and fill their spots easily without offering substantial merit money to kids.
No, Miami (OH) is not comparable even though I'm sure you can get a fine education there. That's more comparable to a school like Temple - a second tier, non flagship public. Temple gives out merit aid too.
So again, you are acting like Penn State specifically has developed in a way making out of state cost unaffordable. My point yet again is that Penn State is very far from unique in that regard and is the same at all schools in the peer group.
**West Virginia is the one exception
There is nothing low about our oos Tuition. I clench my teeth every time I write the checks
Wow what a rant. It was the players that Paterno brought in and coached that kept the program going. Mauti etc that said we will give them hell!! Make no mistake. O’Brien kept it going and franklin kept it going and built it up better after that.
Absolutely true. That's the reality of college today.
I say this particularly because if anyone who went to schools in the 80s and 90s who hasn't been following them closely suddenly looked at college costs today they would be shocked at how dramatically costs have skyrocketed. I know when I started more closely following it a few years ago (as children entered high school), I was prepared for it to be very expensive but didn't realize that costs are far worse than I thought. But that's my point here - it's not a PSU thing, it's a college in the USA thing.
You want to go to an out of state public flagship? It'll be in the $50-70K range. Heck, go to Michigan and it's over $80K a year!!! Private schools now have Cost of Attendance over $90K a year - e.g. Duke recently announced that it will cost $92,042 all in next school year.
The irony in all this is that Pennsylvania does have some great affordable public schools - it's the PASSHE schools and they are reasonable priced for in state and not even that crazy for out of state. And also a ton of private schools in PA offer substantial merit aid making them a lot cheaper than their sticker prices. So, I don't even think you can accuse the state of Pennsylvania for not have available reasonable options for college schools.
No, Miami (OH) is not comparable even though I'm sure you can get a fine education there. That's more comparable to a school like Temple - a second tier, non flagship public. Temple gives out merit aid too.
Completely disagree. After working in college athletics and traveling to 26 university clients (many large 'flagship' schools) and then doing more than 24 tours with my four kids over the last 6 years, we (Penn State) are not delivering. Indiana, btw, came in to my daughter's school and put their offer on the table. As did Miami and UNC.
Congrats, we are part of the 'bloated' someone will pay group of universities. BTW, Rutgers just sent my 3rd daughter a gift package -- where do you think she's visiting? Savvy.