Thank you, sir.This is all you need
Sorted by median finish, with average finish also displayed.
For all the complainers
- Thread starter Evashevsky58
- Start date
Spencer was trying to come back crazy early after double ACL reconstruction, with one being the second reconstruction. He really wasn’t able to train or work out hard between meets. He said because of that, it was the first time making weight was hard with a restricted diet. Kemmer also was trying to come back in the big ten season with an injured shoulder that he re injured right before NCAA’s.
True warriors gutting it out. DI wrestling is just so incredibly brutal on your body that it really has to be experienced to truly comprehend. No level of explaining can properly do it justice.
Some guys have bodies that hold up and heal better than others. Just like some guys can build up their gas tanks and, more importantly, maintain them, than others. The Brands seemed to have both, while many of their top guys weren't so lucky. Hopefully they can find some ways to better identify these type of recruits(I have no idea if that is even possible) or find better ways to get them to March without any serious injuries holding them back...
I agree, if you ran a tournament 10 times I think I would win 7, 8 or nine of them. They were obviously the favorite.
He's Dr. Pedantic. In PSU's case they tend to perform as expected or over performe at nationals. In Iowa worst case I've seen the opposite. It seems they've underperformed compared to the season. If you look back in 2021 they beat Penn State by 16 1/2 points. It's a significant amount but it's not 30, 40, 70 points, or a hundred.
One injury to a top starter early could throw that mass into chaos. All that said though I believe Iowa would've been the favorite to win but it wasn't a certainty.
This is an excellent chart. It shows that Iowa is consistently NEAR the top more than any other team except Penn State. If a consistent top-5 showing is our goal, we are succeeding.This is all you need
Sorted by median finish, with average finish also displayed.
However, what it doesn't show is that WITHOUT Penn State, Iowa would have won only ONE additional team title since 2010 (in 2023).
Tom is good enough to consistently be top 5, but rarely first or second. That seems unlikely to change, based on 18 years of data. A return to dominance is what he promised in 2007. I don't think he meant for just 3 years. But that was the reality.
Is top-5, with an occasional loss to Ohio State & Iowa State, good enough?
The risk of change is really not huge--our floor is probably not much lower than 5th, but there is considerable upside to do better than we are doing now.
If I were Beth, I'd probably ride it out until 2029--I don't think things get worse between now and then. But I think most people will be ready for a change at that point, especially if we don't finish second over the next 3 years and get beat by Iowa State again, for example. Let's see what Nolf and Retheford are up to by then.
If Beth pulls the plug sooner, I won't be particularly surprised or upset.
I am completely fine with that name. The minutiae matters in the types of debates I have on here. Many argue feelings over facts here and gloss right over the actual statistics, or ONLY use the individual national champ line, while conveniently ignoring Finalists and AA;s. When it comes to the whiney Brands detractors I am happy to bury them with mountains of it...when it comes to you and your PSU slappy brethren, it is even easier. I can say PSU is the best team I have ever seen while pointing out where they are somewhat vulnerable and you would think the sky has fallen right on Happy Valley by how quickly you guys converge on here...
Last edited:
This is exactly the crux of the discussion. You believe that the same stubborn people can keep doing the same exact thing the same outdated way and things will magically fix themselves, while others are saying a wholesale change of direction is needed to accomplish it since Cael redefined how to run an elite program that doesn't fit with the current leadership's philosophy. Iowa is obviously still one of the elite programs in the sport. But, they've fallen well behind PSU and are still losing ground, and are in grave danger of falling behind other programs that change, starting with OSU probably by next season at the latest.
But just keep doing it the same way, I guess. I'm sure it'll fix itself somehow.
A lot of what you said here is very reasonable. However, you ignore what the PSU effect has done. When you say WITHOUT Penn State, you aren't considering how much better Iowa would have been without having to fight them over recruits and the negative impact all of PSU's recruiting and even RTC success has caused. Say Sanderson stayed at ISU. I am 100% certain he would have had a lot of success, but NOWHERE near the level he has achieved at PSU, let alone has continued to build on now.
I said it right when it happened and it has 100% proven true. Sanderson was a Unicorn when he wrestled. PSU was an unparalleled sleeping giant when he went there. Once paired together, along with a very willing to help in anyway Billionaire the limits they could achieve was barely discernable...they have had a reverse trickle down effect that has limited every single program and, make no mistake, DT isn't getting there any time soon with OkState. Something considerable will need to change at PSU before ANYONE truly competes with what they have become...
But, has anyone actually identified what they are doing that is directly, or even indirectly, causing the injuries? Or, is it just bad luck? Because, by MANY insider accounts they have done a TON to try to limit exposure to injuries. Wasn't Lee put on a special training program his last couple seasons just for that reason?
I have an exceptionally hard time blaming coaches for injuries. Hell, even PSU has had their share recently. They are just so damn deep it hasn't really mattered, or the guys they have are so damn good they can still win it all with significant injuries.
Still, it absolutely has been a major issue and they need to make it a focal point moving forward...
Again, you only argue statistics that support your claim while conveniently leaving out the only statistics that matter to this program - individual and team titles. Those are the actual standards Tom himself aim for and has said as such. When confronted with the truth you then lose your mind and call everyone haters.
I can point out stats that help my argument too -Does anyone want to make a chart on offensive points scored for the ISU dual? How about the last time a Hawk beat a top ranked guy? It’s not just the losing it’s how we look doing it. Endless tie-ups, zero offense,
Iowa has not lived up to their own standards and when that happens- everything can and should be scrutinized.
I could see it come to an end at the end of next season. I think she will have enough evidence to call the program "flat or stuck"
We could argue with guys like MSU all day but at the end of the day you can take all the statistic, whatever finishes, participation trophies and throw them in the garbage.
The judge is the eye ball test. And it hasn't been there for awhile. its a bad flat product. The dual meets aren't what they use to be. Way too much struggling up and down the lineups to get takedowns.
MSU will always argue because in his mind a top 5 team finish is acceptable and to complain about it is ungrateful.
You got to trust your eyes and ears and the pulse. All data can be manipulated. examples.
On paper MSU will tell you Carter S and Pat Smith were better wrestlers than a David Taylor, Spencer, Metcalf or say Messinbrink. But what did your eyes witness. I don't need a piece of paper to know what a rockstar style looks like. We don't have those guys and Spencer isn't coming back.
The Chiefs team last season. Not this one. Win loss record was awesome on paper but anyone who watched the games saw a team barely squeaking them out and fairly or unfairly they did seem to get calls from refs to help that. You could see and feel it wasnt quite right. It caught up to them in the Superbowl. And it worsened by a ton this season.
Just trust your eyes. Something isn't right. Its not there anymore. But as I said prior--- how many more years and what does that need to look like for some of you to come over to my side? What will it have to look like to know? What's the line you draw?
Last edited:
The vast majority of us don’t know what is occurring in that room and with Tom being Tom he obviously won’t divulge that - unless you are some “insider” or whatever that means. All I know is the staff is comprised of people that have only ever trained and competed the way Tom Brands wants them to. I keep that in mind when observing the results, the unusually high anmount of injuries, etc.
I am fine with PSU wrestling using the individual champ stat. That is the KEY reason they are so far ahead of everyone, including Iowa. However, when blasting Brands the ENTIRE context matters. When you just use the individual title issue, it is very disingenuous, because, without more context, it ignores that they have had at least one guy, many times several, wrestling on Saturday night.
As far as team titles go, since Sanderson took over at PSU exactly ONE other school has won a title and that was tOSU. It really is NOT that Iowa isn't living up to its standard. It truly is that PSU has raised the standard to basically unreachable heights for any other program. PSU is simply that good and it really has nothing to do with the Brands.
The ISU dual, much like the tOSU dual was VERY obviously much more important to those teams than Iowa. From what I can see and what has been hinted at by actual insiders, the Brands seem to have adapted and not put as much focus on winning early season duals like they have in the past. They aren't trying to get their guys peeked and maintained as early as they have in the past, like both schools they lost to most obviously did.
Again, I am not saying they are close to perfect. I have been very vocal about the injury issues and have been all over the "tie ups" and major reliance on short offense. I absolutely agree that they need to improve when wrestling in space and scrambling. I simply believe the bleed black and gold and are trying harder to win than anyone can imagine. If there was a better, more proven solution, I wouldn't argue with those that want to try it. I just simply don't see one and can't sit here and watch people type like the Brands are hot garbage. They are absolutely way better than many like you try to portray...
No one here that I am aware of has said they are hot garbage. They are simply not living up to their own standards of individual and team titles. I have no idea what Beth’s feelings are on the program and Brands so I don’t know if he has enough goodwill to stay until the contract ends.
He should have to answer for allowing Cael and Co to get to the level they have without making any meaningful changes to recruiting, training methods and staff for years. The program is where it is for things he has been doing or not doing for years. This didn’t start yesterday.
MSU answer this ..
What will it have to look like for you to support replacing the coaches? Is it something on paper like finish 4th this year and 6th next? Is it an appearance of a flat product? No finalist? only 4 AA's?
You like to tell us everything so enlighten us on what it takes to know its time?
What will it have to look like for you to support replacing the coaches? Is it something on paper like finish 4th this year and 6th next? Is it an appearance of a flat product? No finalist? only 4 AA's?
You like to tell us everything so enlighten us on what it takes to know its time?
LMFAO...for someone that blasts me for being overly verbose, that was an absolute ton of incoherent, gobbledy gook. Thank you for giving me another laugh!
Let's see what happens with his 2027 class. So far, that is a substantial haul with a ton of potential. Mix that in with guys like DeLuca, Ludington, Mocco and Ferrari and you have a ton of potential for success. If they lose some of those recruits, similar to Bassett, I would have questions. If they can't bring in top guys from the transfer portal that truly supplement with podium finishes in March, I will start to back down.
Finally, if OkState truly passes them by, I will also be concerned. But, with that said, I am concerned the issue goes beyond the Brands directly to the Athletic Department as well as the Compliance Department. Many rumors have circulated, and not just on here, that they have NOT allowed Brands to do some of the things that PSU and now OkState have been doing to bolster the RTC and fully land recruits. If that is true, it won't matter who you replace Brands with...
I love having PSU fans sniping my posts with laughing emojis. You make it all worth while!!!
So you are already going to give Brands a free pass on this season and next and then let him go deep into that class. So basically 2030 you will be able to feel good about your assessment? Good grief. I hope Beth wont wait until its painfully obvious.
So we should just ignore the 2027 class he recruited because it doesn’t fit your narrative? Also, I didn’t say he gets a free pass this season. If they woefully underperform, which I don’t believe they will, then he should have to answer for it to some degree. It would definitely put him on the hot seat, but that still doesn’t mean I fire him without a very high end replacement being readily apparent(which I don’t see anyone that remotely fits that right now).
I also said that if the 2027 class fell apart i would back of my stance quite a bit. However, did I not just list a consider amount of very high end recruits from 25-27 coming together in that room when they get there? Add in a couple legit transfers and that could make for a damn good team.
if Brands can’t produce with that, I wouldn’t be surprised if he retired before you could get him fired…
You should make the switch then. You’re a better fit for that fanbase.
If you wanted me and every other Iowa fan that is unhappy with the state of the program to stop being fans -Brands would be replaced tomorrow. As for me, I’ll continue voicing my well reasoned opinions while you continue gate keeping and eating boogers while we make zero ground on becoming the top program again.
Thanks for your service lolI love having PSU fans sniping my posts with laughing emojis. You make it all worth while!!!
The fact your posts keep getting likes from PSU fans doesn’t really help your cause…
I’m not sure what my cause is supposed to be other than trying to have a logical conversation with supposed fellow Hawkeye fans but it’s been futile to say the least. As for whoever likes or agrees with me, I don’t give a ****. It’s irked me at times reading these boards after the NCAAs and duals with them and their crap but that goes with not being the top program. I never understood posting on a rivals board. Maybe our common ground is we both can agree iowa can do better and we want them to?
You apparently believe Brands can fix it, I don’t believe he can. I believe you also said that David Taylor would somehow not be a good fit at Iowa while I think we are about to learn a painful lesson on what he could have done for us if we had any foresight and balls like when we hired gable.
Kemerer is a better wrestler and coach
Why are we still trying to defend the brands lol?
You are so predictable, you bore me.
Still only getting likes from PSU fans
It’s all well and good to say “championships are the standard, and the Brands aren’t getting it done.” I don’t think any Iowa fans are happy with Iowa’s performance compared to PSU in recent years. But it’s far from certain that making a coaching change, with the candidates available now, would close that gap. It’s incredible to me how many people seem to think Schwab is the answer. I 100% see the logic of the argument that Iowa should have swung for the fences when Taylor was ready to make a change. But the timing didn’t line up, and without someone of his caliber, I don’t think you make a switch
As if your incessant, nearly incoherent whining isn’t? As a result, I most certainly am not trying to entertain you…oh, and yet again, a PSU fan likes your post. Go figure…
I don’t think this is true, Kemerer will be available soon enough. Minnesota will keep Sanders over Kem for a big guy coach.