Glad this dude lost this battle

paindonthurt

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That does not mean those people feel like banks were pushed to make bad loans.
Directly copied and pasted

countrywide financial
Before its collapse, it was a primary partner in HUD’s "National Homeownership Strategy." It aggressively utilized low-down-payment programs to meet diversity lending goals.

I can post a ton of these

How about this?
Politicians created incentives to give bad loans? Does that make you feel better?
 

JackReacherDawg

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Apr 7, 2026
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Fannie Mae
Freddie Mac

oh you are gonna say those aren’t banks

here you go then moron

Countrywide financial
Before its collapse, it was a primary partner in HUD’s "National Homeownership Strategy." It aggressively utilized low-down-payment programs to meet diversity lending goals.
Nope, try again!

was countrywide financial pushed to give bad loans
Countrywide Financial was not forced to issue bad loans; rather, its own aggressive, profit-driven business model was the primary culprit. While some critics argue government regulations (such as the Community Reinvestment Act) indirectly pressured lenders to relax credit standards to stay competitive, internal documents and federal lawsuits reveal that Countrywide willingly originated and securitized toxic loans to maximize quick profits.Here are the key aspects of Countrywide’s lending practices:Executive Direction: Internal emails from CEO Angelo Mozilo referred to some of their own high-risk, "exotic" loans as "toxic" and "poison". Nevertheless, the company embraced subprime lending to sustain massive growth as the housing bubble expanded.The "Hustle" Program: Federal prosecutors found that Countrywide actively rushed substandard loans through a program internally dubbed "Hustle," pushing these defective mortgages onto government-sponsored enterprises like Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.Financial Repercussions: Bank of America, which acquired Countrywide in 2008, ultimately paid tens of billions of dollars in fines, penalties, and legal settlements to resolve predatory lending charges and fraud cases.SEC Charges: In 2010, CEO Angelo Mozilo settled fraud and insider trading charges with the SEC, agreeing to a record $67.5 million penalty.
 

mstateglfr

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Directly copied and pasted

countrywide financial
Before its collapse, it was a primary partner in HUD’s "National Homeownership Strategy." It aggressively utilized low-down-payment programs to meet diversity lending goals.

I can post a ton of these

How about this?
Politicians created incentives to give bad loans? Does that make you feel better?
I know you copy pasted- it's a screenshot.
Again, just because someone says a group of mortgage buyers played a small role in the financial crisis does not mean they think the group pushed lenders to make bad loans.

Those are different things. You can post more screenshots, but it doesn't change reality. Reality is that those are different things.



As for Countrywide, oh wow...
- the diversity lending goals were Countrywide's internal goals. You are trying to make it like the diversity goals were federally 'pushed'.
- Countrywide was found to have discriminatory practices and settled with the DOJ after an investigation.
 

paindonthurt

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I know you copy pasted- it's a screenshot.
Again, just because someone says a group of mortgage buyers played a small role in the financial crisis does not mean they think the group pushed lenders to make bad loans.

Those are different things. You can post more screenshots, but it doesn't change reality. Reality is that those are different things.



As for Countrywide, oh wow...
- the diversity lending goals were Countrywide's internal goals. You are trying to make it like the diversity goals were federally 'pushed'.
- Countrywide was found to have discriminatory practices and settled with the DOJ after an investigation.
“The Escalation: In the early 2000s, the Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) increased these goals. By 2008, 56% of their mortgage purchases were required to be "affordable housing" loans”

56% were low and moderate income combined with 3% down paymenrs

so huds goals weren’t “pushing” these loans?
 

mstateglfr

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“The Escalation: In the early 2000s, the Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) increased these goals. By 2008, 56% of their mortgage purchases were required to be "affordable housing" loans”

56% were low and moderate income combined with 3% down paymenrs

so huds goals weren’t “pushing” these loans?

From Google...
By 2008, the Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) mandated that 56% of all mortgage purchases made by government-sponsored enterprises (GSEs) like Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac be "affordable housing" loans.


I already explained that mortgages purchased by GSEs are not the same as lenders creating mortgages for customers.
Your statistic refers to a mandate for GSEs.
That is not the same as a mandate for mortgage originators/lenders.


You should stop.
 

paindonthurt

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From Google...
By 2008, the Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) mandated that 56% of all mortgage purchases made by government-sponsored enterprises (GSEs) like Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac be "affordable housing" loans.


I already explained that mortgages purchased by GSEs are not the same as lenders creating mortgages for customers.
Your statistic refers to a mandate for GSEs.
That is not the same as a mandate for mortgage originators/lenders.


You should stop.
They backed mortgages created by lenders for customers.

and 56% of them had to be for under privileged people.

No that’s not pushing the lender it’s just pushing the person who is supplying the lender with money.
 

mstateglfr

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They backed mortgages created by lenders for customers.

and 56% of them had to be for under privileged people.

No that’s not pushing the lender it’s just pushing the person who is supplying the lender with money.
It took a long time, but through teamwork we were able to resolve this non-mystery.
IMG_3423.jpeg
 

JackReacherDawg

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“The Escalation: In the early 2000s, the Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) increased these goals. By 2008, 56% of their mortgage purchases were required to be "affordable housing" loans”

56% were low and moderate income combined with 3% down paymenrs

so huds goals weren’t “pushing” these loans?
If HUD was pushing, they were pushing air because private banks had already gone far past the goals in their pursuit of profits. That's what everyone else understands yet you've consistently failed to grasp.
 

JackReacherDawg

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So you are admitting that politicians pushed Freddie and Fannie?
Sigh, no. Fannie and Freddie lost market share. Why did they lose market share?

I asked this earlier but you skipped by it without answering (because you dont have one). If banks were offloading these loans in 30 days at profit, to investors, then isn't it the investors fault for buying the bad loans? And who was pushing the investors? If no one was pushing the investors, then how does your argument hold any weight whatsoever?
 

JackReacherDawg

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OMG. Haven't y'all solved this yet?
We have, but Pain is one of those people that thinks of he just keeps repeating his error, it wont be wrong. I've really only kept at this to test to see if AI helps people learn or just reinforces erroneous beliefs. I think we see the answer.
 

paindonthurt

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We have, but Pain is one of those people that thinks of he just keeps repeating his error, it wont be wrong. I've really only kept at this to test to see if AI helps people learn or just reinforces erroneous beliefs. I think we see the answer.
Yes we solved it.
Fact that politicians were pushing for loans to under privileged lower income people.

you just don’t like admitting that happened.

56% or Freddie and Fannie’s loans were mandated to be to lower income people.

that’s 25% of all mortgages at the time.
 

JackReacherDawg

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Yes we solved it.
Fact that politicians were pushing for loans to under privileged lower income people.

you just don’t like admitting that happened.

56% or Freddie and Fannie’s loans were mandated to be to lower income people.

that’s 25% of all mortgages at the time.
Yes, politicians pushed for that goal. And it didn't matter, it was irrelevant. They didn't take any actions that would have changed outcomes. They didn't push investors, who were the cause. They didn't have a POLICY that did anything.

You dont appear to understand that the increased mandate to F&F was because they were losing all their market share to private lenders, who were offering better terms. This doesnt help your point, it hurts it.

I'm sorry if that is too much for you to understand. But do know that it's not for the rest of us. Good day.
 

paindonthurt

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Yes, politicians pushed for that goal. And it didn't matter, it was irrelevant. They didn't take any actions that would have changed outcomes. They didn't push investors, who were the cause. They didn't have a POLICY that did anything.

You dont appear to understand that the increased mandate to F&F was because they were losing all their market share to private lenders, who were offering better terms. This doesnt help your point, it hurts it.

I'm sorry if that is too much for you to understand. But do know that it's not for the rest of us. Good day.
Finally you can admit it. Maybe work on @mstateglfr now!

Fannie and freddi had a 12% defualt rate. It did matter. It wasn't the biggest issue but pushing loans on lower income people in the name of "fariness" certainly was a big catalyst that caused 2008. NO IT WASN'T THE ONLY CATALYST, but it was a catalyst and a significant one.

Now name that country!!
 

The Peeper

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No its not implied. Its very clear they were pushed. They were. I've provided evidence of that which you just ignore you dishonest POS.

It makes legal prostitution the result of government. Absolutely.

prompt: if politicians hadn't pushed for lending to lower income people and minorities would they have still likely made the sub prime lending mistakes that lead to 2008?

The question of whether political pressure to expand lending to lower-income and minority borrowers was the primary driver of the 2008 subprime mortgage crisis is a subject of significant debate among economists, financial analysts, and policymakers.
Evidence suggests that while government policies aimed at expanding homeownership played a role in the broader housing landscape, the subprime lending crisis would have likely still occurred due to a combination of private sector incentives, financial innovation, and regulatory gaps.
Here is a breakdown of why the crisis likely would have happened regardless of political pushes for lower-income lending.

1. The Dominance of Private Sector Wall Street Issuance​

A critical piece of evidence against the idea that government mandates caused the crisis is the origin of the worst-performing loans. The vast majority of subprime loans—especially the most predatory, non-traditional, and poorly underwritten ones—were issued by private mortgage companies that were not subject to federal community lending mandates.
  • Private-Label Securitization (PLS): Between 2004 and 2006, the height of the real estate bubble, the market shifted heavily toward private-label securitization. Private investment banks packaged loans into Mortgage-Backed Securities (MBS) and Collateralized Debt Obligations (CDOs) completely independent of government-sponsored enterprises (GSEs) like Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.
  • Lack of CRA Regulation: Non-bank mortgage lenders (such as Countrywide, New Century Financial, and Ameriquest) made the overwhelming majority of subprime loans. These institutions were not regulated under the Community Reinvestment Act (CRA), which was the primary legislative tool used by politicians to encourage lending to low- and moderate-income neighborhoods. According to a comprehensive study by the Federal Reserve, only about 6% of higher-priced (subprime) loans were made by CRA-covered institutions to CRA-eligible borrowers or neighborhoods.

2. Profit Incentives and the "Originate-to-Distribute" Model​

The primary driver for the explosion of subprime lending was not political pressure, but immense profit potential created by a structural flaw in the financial system: the originate-to-distribute model.
Under this model, mortgage brokers and lenders no longer held onto the loans they made, meaning they didn't bear the risk of default.
  • Lenders generated loans, collected upfront fees, and immediately sold them to Wall Street banks.
  • Wall Street banks packaged them into complex securities and sold them to global investors who were starved for yield in a low-interest-rate environment.
  • Because everyone along the chain made money on volume rather than loan quality, underwriting standards naturally collapsed. This dynamic would have existed as long as there was investor demand for high-yield securities, regardless of the borrower's demographic.

3. Financial Innovation and Misrated Securities​

The crisis was magnified heavily by Wall Street's creation of complex financial engineering tools that obscured risk.
  • Credit Rating Agency Failures: Rating agencies (like Moody’s, S&P, and Fitch) gave AAA ratings—the highest safety rating reserved for government bonds—to tranches of subprime debt. They used flawed mathematical models that assumed home prices would never drop nationwide simultaneously.
  • Synthetic CDOs and Credit Default Swaps (CDS): Financial instruments allowed investors to bet on the housing market without even owning actual mortgages. This multiplied the losses of the subprime market exponentially. Even if fewer subprime loans had been made, the leverage and speculative bets placed on them by Wall Street would have still posed a systemic threat to the global financial system.

4. Speculators and Prime Borrowers​

While subprime loans to low-income borrowers did fail at high rates, a significant portion of the defaults that sunk the banking system came from middle-class and affluent borrowers, as well as real estate speculators.
Data analyzed after the crash (notably in studies by the National Bureau of Economic Research) showed that the growth in mortgage debt during the boom was actually driven heavily by middle- and high-income borrowers buying investment properties or second homes. When the housing bubble burst, many of these "prime" or "near-prime" borrowers walked away from their properties, contributing massively to the systemic collapse.

The Role Government Policy Did Play​

To look at the issue fully, it is true that government policy contributed to the environment that made the crisis possible, though not primarily through low-income lending mandates:
  • Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac: To maintain market share against aggressive Wall Street firms, these government-backed entities lowered their standards later in the boom (around 2005–2007) and bought billions of dollars in subprime securities to meet HUD-mandated affordable housing goals. However, they were following a trend started by the private market, rather than leading it.
  • Deregulation: The repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act protections in 1999 and the enactment of the Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000 (which left derivatives like Credit Default Swaps unregulated) allowed commercial banks to engage in highly risky investment activities.

Summary​

The consensus among most economic historians and the official findings of the Financial Crisis Inquiry Commission (FCIC) is that the 2008 crash was caused by systemic failures in risk management, predatory private lending practices, regulatory inaction, and Wall Street greed. Political pressure to lend to lower-income demographics certainly added fuel to an existing fire, but the core machinery of the subprime crisis—the securitization of bad debt for massive private profit—would have functioned with or without that political push.


second prompt: Did political pressure make the 2008 crash worse?

Yes, a compelling case can be made that political pressure—and the broader intersection of government policy and the housing market—did make the 2008 crash worse, even if it wasn't the sole or primary spark that ignited it.
While the core machinery of the crisis was driven by private Wall Street incentives and complex financial engineering, government actions created an environment that amplified the scale, velocity, and ultimate damage of the collapse.
Political pressure exacerbated the 2008 crash in several key ways:

The Nuance: Fuel vs. Spark​

Economists often look at the 2008 crisis using a "fire" analogy:

  • The Spark: Wall Street’s creation of the originate-to-distribute model, predatory private lending, and flawed credit ratings.
  • The Fuel: Low interest rates, global investor demand for high yields, and political pressure to expand homeownership and deregulate markets.
Had politicians not pushed for expanded lending and deregulation, Wall Street likely still would have engineered a subprime boom to satisfy global investor demand. However, without the immense liquidity injected by Fannie and Freddie, the suppression of state-level consumer protections, and the complete lack of oversight on derivatives, the bubble almost certainly would have popped sooner, and the resulting economic devastation would have been significantly more contained.


Waste Management Trash GIF by Mike Hitt
 

mstateglfr

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Finally you can admit it. Maybe work on @mstateglfr now!

Fannie and freddi had a 12% defualt rate. It did matter. It wasn't the biggest issue but pushing loans on lower income people in the name of "fariness" certainly was a big catalyst that caused 2008. NO IT WASN'T THE ONLY CATALYST, but it was a catalyst and a significant one.

Now name that country!!
I agree there was a push from the government side to generate loans for lower credit/higher risk borrowers.
Back on page 2 post 75 I said...I would say there was absolutely an initiative by government to find ways to get loans to lesser qualified buyers.


I disagree that lenders felt pushed
(obligated/pressured/required/expected). Lenders CHOSE whether they lent to borrowers. Lenders CHOSE to prioritize short term profits over long term stability.
 
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JackReacherDawg

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Finally you can admit it. Maybe work on @mstateglfr now!

Fannie and freddi had a 12% defualt rate. It did matter. It wasn't the biggest issue but pushing loans on lower income people in the name of "fariness" certainly was a big catalyst that caused 2008. NO IT WASN'T THE ONLY CATALYST, but it was a catalyst and a significant one.

Now name that country!!
Sigh. No one ever denied that "politicians" pushed ANYTHING. Just about any dumb thing anyone ever has thought of has been pushed by some politician somewhere. The question is why anyone would think that matters.

What we have been trying to get through to you, is that there was no POLICY, no actual action by a government entity, that had any real effect on the market. A "pretty please dont be racist and redline the black neighborhoods anymore" CLEARLY pisses you the hell off for reasons we can probably figure, but as it was the INVESTORS who were buying the loans, and you cant even find a hint of pressure on the investors, then you HAVE NO POINT. Good day.