Graham Harrell, et al.

[AzzurriDawg4]

The draft (and drafts past) got me thinking about the spread and how doomed a spread quarterback inevitably becomes on draft day. I mean what Graham Harrell did in college was downright stupid and he goes UNDRAFTED? These guys are so poorly equipped to go under center and take the proper drops that they are essentially black balled. Guys like Pat White and Tebow will find a job in the NFL I guess, at WR or TE, even if it just to run the wildcat scheme.

So that leads me to my question, with a brief disclaimer: I like the spread and, of course, I would take 1,000 Graham Harrells, Tebows, Pat Whites, etc. and could give a rats *** what they do after they leave State, professionally that is, BUT do yall think this will eventually catch up to the spread HC's and their ability to recruit great QBs? You have pretty much stuck a knife in your pro-prospects if you sign with a spread school as a QB - will this realization hurt spread teams in the future?

I find it hard to believe that Harrell wouldn't have prospered as a drop back QB at, say, Bama. Now, it probably doesn't even matter, because the beautiful thing about the spread is that it can take a non-pro-caliber QB and generate a dynamic offense - Lord knows there are plenty of non-pro QBs out there. Just typing out my thoughts and wanted to see if others were thinking the same thing...

 

[AzzurriDawg4]

The draft (and drafts past) got me thinking about the spread and how doomed a spread quarterback inevitably becomes on draft day. I mean what Graham Harrell did in college was downright stupid and he goes UNDRAFTED? These guys are so poorly equipped to go under center and take the proper drops that they are essentially black balled. Guys like Pat White and Tebow will find a job in the NFL I guess, at WR or TE, even if it just to run the wildcat scheme.

So that leads me to my question, with a brief disclaimer: I like the spread and, of course, I would take 1,000 Graham Harrells, Tebows, Pat Whites, etc. and could give a rats *** what they do after they leave State, professionally that is, BUT do yall think this will eventually catch up to the spread HC's and their ability to recruit great QBs? You have pretty much stuck a knife in your pro-prospects if you sign with a spread school as a QB - will this realization hurt spread teams in the future?

I find it hard to believe that Harrell wouldn't have prospered as a drop back QB at, say, Bama. Now, it probably doesn't even matter, because the beautiful thing about the spread is that it can take a non-pro-caliber QB and generate a dynamic offense - Lord knows there are plenty of non-pro QBs out there. Just typing out my thoughts and wanted to see if others were thinking the same thing...

 

[dawgatUSM]

I'd say yes and no. Sam Bradford is a system guy, but he would have probably been the #1 pick had he come out this year. The thing that I think held Harrell back was the fact that the TTU offense was so simplistic. There was nothing to it. There's a lot of factors that will play into it, but the fact remains that football is an evolving sport. Who knows what the next fad offense will be...

 

[Bulldog from Birth]

There have been spread quarterbacks that have been drafted high (e.g. Alex Smith #1 overall). Pros are looking for specific attributes that a quarterback needs to play well in the NFL like arm strength to throw the deep out. Chase Daniels and Graham Harrell just don't have that. And it wouldn't matter had they played in the spread or had they played in a West Coast offense for 4 years, they just weren't going to get drafted because they didn't have the tools.

BFB

 

[saddawg]

signed,

Drew Brees

cc:
Warren Moon
Jim Kelly
Dan Marino
Dan Fouts
Steve Young
Jim McMahon

It ain't the offense, it's the ability.

 

[RebelBruiser]

Agree, it's not the spread so much as it is the inability to throw certain passes. It's easy to teach a guy how to drop back. That's not the issue. The issue is that you have to be able to throw the deep out with good timing and enough strength to not get it picked at the pro level. If you can't make that throw, you aren't going to make it in the NFL, period.

TTU's relies on a lot of short, quick routes, and they don't require a lot of the same routes you throw on the NFL level. It's a great offense for college, but it doesn't require you to have an NFL caliber QB to have success. And that's the gripe on Tebow as well. People aren't that impressed with his arm strength, and a lot of the throws on the pro level require a certain amount of arm strength to be able to make them work. That one deficiency of his is not a problem in Meyer's offense, but it will be a problem for him at the pro level.

Honestly, I feel like Pat White has the arm strength to potentially play as a QB in the pros. It remains to be seen how well he adapts to a pro system, but I think he's got a shot, more so than Harrell for sure, plus he's a safer pick because you know you can play him somewhere if it doesn't work out at QB. If you take Harrell and he can't make the throws required for your offense, you have nowhere else to put him.

 

[FlabLoser]

So that leads me to my question, with a brief disclaimer: I like the spread and, of course, I would take 1,000 Graham Harrells, Tebows, Pat Whites, etc. and could give a rats *** what they do after they leave State, professionally that is, BUT do yall think this will eventually catch up to the spread HC's and their ability to recruit great QBs? You have pretty much stuck a knife in your pro-prospects if you sign with a spread school as a QB - will this realization hurt spread teams in the future?

The only thing that's going to catch up to the spread is fast defenses. People will go all-speed on defense. The whole defense will get smaller and faster. Then somebody will start dominating with smashmouth football and the tide will shift back to old school offense.

 

[Todd4State]

Is it really that hard for a QB to go under center and learn how to take a snap? Especially in the NFL where you an infinate amount of time and several camps to learn the skill?

Maybe it's really the footwork on the drops that is the "difficult" part, but to me, it would seem to be harder to take a snap out of the shotgun than under center.

I don't know, maybe it is that difficult.

I will say this though, it does make sense to me that if you played in a pro-style offense in college, not necessarily even a WCO, but just a pro-style, it would be easier to transition to the NFL. Just like if you are an option QB in high school, it would be easier for you to go somewhere like a Georgia Tech that runs the option.

 

[RebelBruiser]

Again, I think it's got more to do with the ability to make the throws. Sam Bradford and Colt McCoy will both be fairly high picks next year if they come out, and both play in a spread. The difference between them and Harrell is arm strength and the proven ability to throw certain routes.

Texas Tech's offense allows for QBs with a lesser skill set to succeed with the short passing game. NFL teams won't take a chance on you unless you possess their skill set, and so far no Texas Tech QB under Leach has possessed those skills.

 

[Bulldog Backer]

...much more valuable when the spread spreads to the NFL, and it will.

 

[dogfan96]

Is it really that hard for a QB to go under center and learn how to take a snap? Especially in the NFL where you an infinate amount of time and several camps to learn the skill?

Maybe it's really the footwork on the drops that is the "difficult" part, but to me, it would seem to be harder to take a snap out of the shotgun than under center.

I don't know, maybe it is that difficult.

I will say this though, it does make sense to me that if you played in a pro-style offense in college, not necessarily even a WCO, but just a pro-style, it would be easier to transition to the NFL. Just like if you are an option QB in high school, it would be easier for you to go somewhere like a Georgia Tech that runs the option.

It's about taking the drop, getting your feet set properly and your body balanced, and then making the throw. I watched Harrell in the Senior Bowl and he had trouble with his footwork, which caused him to be off balance, and he didn't have the arm strength to make the deep sideline throws. You can get away with some of that stuff if you have Matthew Stafford's arm, but Harrell surely doesn't.

 

[AzzurriDawg4]

thing - variations of it have been around for decades, including in the NFL.

And I thought about that when posing my question - but when the analysts were talking about Harrell the whole conversation was about footwork, not arm strength. I think the concern comes at the extreme ends of the "spread spectrum" if you will. Purdue, Texas, et al - still had a smash mouth/balanced element to their offenses.

Hawaii, TTU - and on the other end of the spectrum, Rich Rod/Urban/Mullen often use either the pass or the run/option primarily only using the other for off-balance/quick strike type plays. I agree with most of the comments though, it is not the system that dooms the QB on draft day, but the system just happens to make great college players out of average QBs.

 

[Bulldog Backer]

...what people may be surprised about this coming fall will be just how smashed mouth our offense will be. Our offensive strength is still bruising running backs. The 1999-2002 Rams, under offensive coordinator Mike Martz with QB Kurt Warner spreading out the field using all those speed receivers is a good example of your point.

 

[saddawg]

Here is what the Mad Pirate has to say about it.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/football/nfl/draft/stories/031809dnspoleachbrite.3de7ff5.html

 

[RebelBruiser]

Take a look at his past QBs at Texas Tech:

Kliff Kingsbury - spent 4 seasons bouncing around NFL rosters never earning a starting spot, often on the practice squad, spent a brief period in NFL Europe, followed by a year in the CFL, was last seen on a roster in the All-American Football League (didn't even know such a league existed)
BJ Symons - spent one year on an NFL bench, 2 years in NFL Europe, and was last seen in the Arena Football League
Sonny Cumbie - signed and released by 2 NFL teams, now playing in the Arena Football League

Obviously there is something about Leach's system that allows mediocre QBs to put up huge numbers. Harrell may have more success than his predecessors, but you can't blame NFL teams for not drafting him considering that history. I'd be willing to bet that Harrell will take more snaps in Arena Football than at the NFL level. If Leach's QBs truly had the ability to be NFL QBs, some team would take them and develop them. As it stands, none of them have been able to make it at the NFL level, so it's really hard for him to make an argument backing his QB.

 

[NavinJohnson]

The draft (and drafts past) got me thinking about the spread and how doomed a spread quarterback inevitably becomes on draft day. I mean what Graham Harrell did in college was downright stupid and he goes UNDRAFTED? These guys are so poorly equipped to go under center and take the proper drops that they are essentially black balled. Guys like Pat White and Tebow will find a job in the NFL I guess, at WR or TE, even if it just to run the wildcat scheme.

So that leads me to my question, with a brief disclaimer: I like the spread and, of course, I would take 1,000 Graham Harrells, Tebows, Pat Whites, etc. and could give a rats *** what they do after they leave State, professionally that is, BUT do yall think this will eventually catch up to the spread HC's and their ability to recruit great QBs? You have pretty much stuck a knife in your pro-prospects if you sign with a spread school as a QB - will this realization hurt spread teams in the future?

I find it hard to believe that Harrell wouldn't have prospered as a drop back QB at, say, Bama. Now, it probably doesn't even matter, because the beautiful thing about the spread is that it can take a non-pro-caliber QB and generate a dynamic offense - Lord knows there are plenty of non-pro QBs out there. Just typing out my thoughts and wanted to see if others were thinking the same thing...

That's how I feel. I don't care that much if our players become NFL stars as long as they help us win. I'd take one of those Heisman-capable-but-not-NFL draftable QB's in a second.

I started looking at this much closer after we hired Mullen and noticed that the best HS players go to the winners regardless of whether that teams coaches' produce NFL stars. It hasn't caught up yet and I don't think it will. Meyer will get 5 star QB's forever as long as he wins championships, regardless if Tebow/Leak/Brantley/current HS Junior Phenom become NFL MVP's. The players know they'll at least get a shot and it will be up to them to make it in the NFL, not up to their college coach. Plus, if you get enough blue chippers, some of them are bound to become NFL stars anyway despite the college scheme, so the coaches will always have some pros to point out to the recruits.

 

[BR549.sixpack]

asdf

 

[RebelBruiser]

Mark it down. He may get to square off with Colt Brennan though when he gets there.

 

[Gene Swindoll]

signed,

Drew Brees

cc:
Warren Moon
Jim Kelly
Dan Marino
Dan Fouts
Steve Young
Jim McMahon

It ain't the offense, it's the ability.

its not just the spread...its the mumme/leach spread....no one other than tim couch has made it pro, and we can all agree couch was a bust

 

[BoJangles921]

his arm is weak as chit. He is terrible on the deep out and that is the throw that the pro coaches look at more than any other.
He is just a weak arm qb and he would have really suffered if he had been in a pro style offense. However, I do agree that the
spread really hurts these kids coming out of college and as long as you have guys from Fla and Ok recruiting QB's they will always
find that 5 star guy to run their offenses.

 

[BR549.sixpack]

asdf

 

[RebelBruiser]

He'll get dropped by Cleveland, and he'll probably pick up as a free agent somewhere, then get cut, and he'll end up in the CFL or Arena Ball. Trust me, by the 2011 season at the latest, he'll be out of the NFL, and he'll likely never take a snap outside of pre-season.

 

[RebelBruiser]

Harrell is the perfect example of how the spread can let you have a successful offense without having to have a QB that possesses all the pro tools. I really don't think the spread hinders QBs and their pro chances. I actually think it's just the individual QBs just aren't that good or at least they are deficient, and the spread makes them look better.

 

[lawdawg02]

do yall think this will eventually catch up to the spread HC's and their ability to recruit great QBs? You have pretty much stuck a knife in your pro-prospects if you sign with a spread school as a QB - will this realization hurt spread teams in the future?

the truth of the matter is that the spread HC's are not recruiting great QBs. they are signing good QBs, who for whatever reason (size, arm strength, etc), are not recruited by the big boys. by great QBs, i mean those pro-style quarterbacks who are at the top of the class, and will be future top draft picks. i guess my answer is that it is hurting the teams now, not just in the future. however, the success of wes welker and now maclin/crabtree could trigger the opposite for WRs.