Hamilton/Bruce baseball controversy

[Todd4State]

Has anyone else heard this?

Bruce won the 2A North State Championship to go to Trustmark Park. OK, so Hamilton, the team they were playing, later decides to protest the win to the MHSAA because Bruce had a pitcher throw more innings than he was allowed to per MHSAA rules. The rule is a pitcher shall not pitch anymore than 17 innings in a week. The pitcher in question pitched 17 and 2/3 allegedly.

Other background info- Bruce had won the first game, and swept the series.

There is a rumor that Bruce is going to have to forfeit the game, which I suppose would mean playing a third game and the series would be tied at one. I'm awaiting the official ruling on the matter.

Thought it was interesting because we talk about pitch counts from time to time. So, what say ye about the rule?

 

[Todd4State]

Has anyone else heard this?

Bruce won the 2A North State Championship to go to Trustmark Park. OK, so Hamilton, the team they were playing, later decides to protest the win to the MHSAA because Bruce had a pitcher throw more innings than he was allowed to per MHSAA rules. The rule is a pitcher shall not pitch anymore than 17 innings in a week. The pitcher in question pitched 17 and 2/3 allegedly.

Other background info- Bruce had won the first game, and swept the series.

There is a rumor that Bruce is going to have to forfeit the game, which I suppose would mean playing a third game and the series would be tied at one. I'm awaiting the official ruling on the matter.

Thought it was interesting because we talk about pitch counts from time to time. So, what say ye about the rule?

 

[Todd4State]

Has anyone else heard this?

Bruce won the 2A North State Championship to go to Trustmark Park. OK, so Hamilton, the team they were playing, later decides to protest the win to the MHSAA because Bruce had a pitcher throw more innings than he was allowed to per MHSAA rules. The rule is a pitcher shall not pitch anymore than 17 innings in a week. The pitcher in question pitched 17 and 2/3 allegedly.

Other background info- Bruce had won the first game, and swept the series.

There is a rumor that Bruce is going to have to forfeit the game, which I suppose would mean playing a third game and the series would be tied at one. I'm awaiting the official ruling on the matter.

Thought it was interesting because we talk about pitch counts from time to time. So, what say ye about the rule?

 

[vhdawg]

....that a pitcher use rule based on number of innings instead of number of pitches is stupid.

 

[OMlawdog]

Steve Dewitt. His daddy coached him and threw him sometimes three games in a row.

When he was a sophmore in high school he led the coast in strikeouts and in a tournament out dueled Doug Thompson future LSU Tigah, and was the best player on the fieldwith players like Chris Reinke, Avery Taylor, Doug Thompson, Timmy Duprey, and a few guys that played college ball.

Apparently one night his right arm swelled to the point where they had to go to the hospital, and I believe he had surgery, but Im not sure. He tried to pitch again, but he wasn't the same.

It was a complete waste of talent because no one cared to say that it might not be a good idea to let this kid pitch three times in a weekend.

I think its a solid rule, and there should be a rule about pitching in back to back games.

 

[Shmuley]

nm

 

[benatmsu]

The kid already shut them down twice... Being more than a week later, I wonder who they'll trot out to the mound for game 3?

 

[beachbumdawg]

Steve Dewitt. His daddy coached him and threw him sometimes three games in a row.

When he was a sophmore in high school he led the coast in strikeouts and in a tournament out dueled Doug Thompson future LSU Tigah, and was the best player on the fieldwith players like Chris Reinke, Avery Taylor, Doug Thompson, Timmy Duprey, and a few guys that played college ball.

Apparently one night his right arm swelled to the point where they had to go to the hospital, and I believe he had surgery, but Im not sure. He tried to pitch again, but he wasn't the same.

It was a complete waste of talent because no one cared to say that it might not be a good idea to let this kid pitch three times in a weekend.

I think its a solid rule, and there should be a rule about pitching in back to back games.

i played against all those ******** you mentioned in High School

 

[patdog]

In fact, I suspect most smaller high schools don't even attempt to track pitch counts.

As for the controversy, if that's the rule and if Bruce did violate it, they should forfeit the game and have toplay game 3. Of course, by the time this is settled, the pitcher will be able to pitch again, so Hamilton will have to face him in all 3 games.

I remember back in the 80s my high school played for the state title against a team that had the best pitcher in the state. He pitched a complete game against us on Tuesday, then 3 innings of relief on Thursday, then a complete game on Saturday for the state title.

Also, 17 innings per week is way too many. The rule should be something like 7 innings in 5 days for a high school pitcher.

 

[Coach34]

but at the same time, its also stupid to throw a pitcher that much in a 7 day period.

But since that is the rule, I'm glad they got called on it

 

[OMlawdog]

That team had Avery Youngblood at 1B who eventually went to South Alabama. I saw him at a ball off a tee over 365 foot fence. It also had Timmy Duprey, a guy that I never understood why he didn't get more attention, and Doug Thompson, the first guy I ever saw take signals from his dad behind home plate.

Funny part about Biloxi's team is that their coach tipped their pitches. If he tapped his left leg it was a fast ball, right leg, curveball.

Long Beach's 1994 team was loaded as well. Chris Reinke and Brandon Parker were the top two hurlers. Both played pro ball. Most talented player on the team was Paul something who played first base. He hit 93 on the gun in front of scouts, unfortunately that was a little bit higher than his IQ, because he was so dumb. That team also had Avery Taylor who got drafted. For the coast that was a talented team.

 

[beachbumdawg]

That team had Avery Youngblood at 1B who eventually went to South Alabama. I saw him at a ball off a tee over 365 foot fence. It also had Timmy Duprey, a guy that I never understood why he didn't get more attention, and Doug Thompson, the first guy I ever saw take signals from his dad behind home plate.

Funny part about Biloxi's team is that their coach tipped their pitches. If he tapped his left leg it was a fast ball, right leg, curveball.

Long Beach's 1994 team was loaded as well. Chris Reinke and Brandon Parker were the top two hurlers. Both played pro ball. Most talented player on the team was Paul something who played first base. He hit 93 on the gun in front of scouts, unfortunately that was a little bit higher than his IQ, because he was so dumb. That team also had Avery Taylor who got drafted. For the coast that was a talented team.

played in a tournament on the coast against that Biloxi team....we lost of course

and we were in the same district as Long Beach at the time.....avery taylor hit a first pitch leadoff homerun that still has not landed to dead center....lucky us, the next year we changed districts to include Petal and Oak Grove which Petal had Tootie Myers and Oak Grove had Donnie Bridges

 

[jeremyrbrown]

The game in question was game 3.

Hamilton won on Thurs, Bruce won on Fri and Sat.

So if Bruce forfeits the win to Hamilton, Hamilton wins the series 2-1.

 

[Xenomorph]

gravedigger is one of their kid's fathers.

 

[Xenomorph]

..and you pulled your best pitcher to comply with the rule only to lose to a pitcher who was out of innings would you think it's chicken **** to contest the game?

(I have no idea if that happened, but coaches not being able to throw their ace in state tournaments because of being out of innings is pretty common.)

 

[Xenomorph]

Click here

 

[RebelBruiser]

It better say "any 7 day period", otherwise, you could potentially throw a guy 17 innings one weekend and bring him back out early the next week.

Also, if it isn't phrased with "any 7 day period", and I'm the Bruce coach, I'm claiming that Game 3 started a new week for the pitcher.

If the Bruce coach really just didn't track it, that's on him.

 

[Xenomorph]

j. A pitcher shall not pitch more than 17 innings per week.

MHSAA Handbook

I bet Bruce is going to make the argument you just laid out... Still, I figure this ground has been covered more than once by the MHSAA. I'd be surprised if they win their appeal.

 

[OneParticularHarbor]

I saw him at a ball off a tee over 365 foot fence.

I can do that with a 9-iron. No problem.

 

[patdog]

The pitcher threw 7 innings Monday, 6 Friday, and 4.2 on Saturday.Either way you look at it, that's more than 17 innings in a week and more than 17 innings in 7 days. And the coach should be fired. I've got no problem with the Monday and Friday outings, butthere's no way that kid should have thrown even 1 pitch on Saturday.

 

[TilloDawg]

17 innings per schoolweek that runs from Monday to Sunday per the MHSAA...

The kid pitched a 7 inning complete gamein a game 3 vs Eupora on Monday......6 inning complete game 2 vs Hamiltonon Friday(66 pitches).....and 4 2/3 on Saturday in game 3.

Story in Columbus paper on him.....

http://www.cdispatch.com/sports/article.asp?aid=6249

 

[RebelBruiser]

The pitcher threw 7 innings Monday, 6 Friday, and 4.2 on Saturday.Either way you look at it, that's more than 17 innings in a week and more than 17 innings in 7 days. And the coach should be fired. I've got no problem with the Monday and Friday outings, butthere's no way that kid should have thrown even 1 pitch on Saturday.

I agree with you, but like I said it depends on how the rule is written. Obviously if it is written Monday-Sunday as the defined week, then he pitched too much.

If it was written with "week" undefined, then the Bruce coach could argue that he was counting the week from Saturday-Friday, and Game 3 fell in a new week.

For instance, if the rule is written Monday-Sunday, then a coach could throw a guy 7 innings Friday, 7 on Saturday, 3 on Sunday, and then 7 on Monday, 7 on Tuesday, and 3 on Wednesday and still fall within the rulebook, since the Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday games would fall on a different week. That would be abusing a pitcher, but it would technically be legal. I know high school schedules don't play that way, but you sometimes have 2 games in a day, and you could use a pitcher to pitch both games and a game the following day and then throw him again in the midweek.

They need to have it written so that it's defined as "any 7 day period", so that it rolls constantly to keep that from happening.

 

[patdog]

And it needs to be on about a 5-day cycle instead of a 7-day cycle. If a pitcher is scheduled to pitch on Friday, it doesn't really matter too much how many innings he threw the previous Saturday.</p>

 

[McMeat]

how many innings they can pitch per week? Everyone posting that f*ck innnings a week is the limit makes no sense.</p>

 

[olddawgfan]

I bet if you go back, Earnest has pitched his older son and the kid named Chase more than the allowed innings in previous years. Since Hester's daughter is dating a Hamilton player, I'm going to blame this on Stacy Hester.

 

[boomboommsu]

....you only get one bite at the apple. You must invoke the rule beforehand, not take your chances and then trot out the minor infraction and get a redo if you didn't like the first outcome.

 

[Eureka Dog]

"independent" (not a person associated with either team) right? If not they should be. If so, then the umpires report to the MHSAA should include the date(s), the pitchers' names, and their individual pitch counts. The umpire(s) assigned to the next playoff game, should be armed with a running pitch count for every player on the two teams involved in the game.

I've seen a relief pitcher come in with 2 base runners, throw one pitch for a triple-play, and that counts as one inning pitched !

And then I've seen pitchers throw40+ pitches in the first inning andbe taken outwithno batter/runner being retired. How many innings does thatcount?

Needless to say, I'm not a fan of the "Innings pitched" rule. When my boys played in Little League / Dixie League, I always kept the pitch count. When their pitch count hit 70, the coaches new I wanted them out. I didn't care what potential my kid had or didn't have,I wasn't going to let a 14 year-old in a 35 year-old body (posing as a coach) mess up my kid's arm.

 

[OMlawdog]

We had guys on our team that played in the SEC that were hitting the ball pretty far, and Avery steps up and clears the 365 sign with room tospare.

If he had gotten his weight under control he would have been a freak of nature.

It was my understanding the Biloxi football coaches begged him to come out for football, he just didn't want to do it. He was 6'1" 290, and could move.

 

[hotdigitydog]

He is his nephew.........Secondly, Chase Reeves in the number two pitcher and he has pitched very little this year........He's been hurt and is just now returning to the hill........

 

[wbc40]

at St. Andrew's for a couple of years. Didn't know that about his high school career. I knew his brother Anthony went on to pitch at USM. Either way, he was a great guy and coach. I think he's back on the coast now with his wife and child.

 

[AceLeroy]

....you only get one bite at the apple. You must invoke the rule beforehand, not take your chances and then trot out the minor infraction and get a redo if you didn't like the first outcome.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</p>

OK , seems to me that Bruce indeed broke the rule. That ship has sailed.

The George Brett mention interests me and got me thinking........

In the Brettsituation , the rule also was clearly broken , however the punishment for breaking the rule was not clear or stated in the rulebook. The rule simply said that a player can't use a bat with pine tar exceeding a certain amount of inches. It DID NOT state that if a player used such a bat that he would be declared out.

This left a grey area. What would the punishment be? Clearly if you hit a ball into the air and it is caught before it hits the ground , you are out. The rules say that clearly. THey do not say you are out if you use a bat that has too much pine tar.

There are other punishments for breaking rules other than outs being declared or games being forfeited.

MAybe the punishment for using to much pine tar is simply the bat is declared unfair and removed from the game and making the hitter use another bat. Obviously this should be pointed out before he uses the bat.

There are similar rules that don't call for punishment like the jewelry rule for pitchers. Excessive jewelry worn by a pitcher canresult in him being asked to take it off or tuck in in his shirt. NO forfeit or any other punishment , simply a correction of the problem because the rulebook doesNOT require any other punishment.

THat is the argument I would make if I were the Coach for Bruce. I agree the rule was borken , But I would want to know if the punishment for breaking the rule is clearly stated in the rulebook. NO doubt the rule is there , but does it clearly call for a forfeit if the rule is broken?

Again , there are other ways to punish the breaking of rules. Maybe such an offender loses 6 inings for that pitcher in the next week. MAybe he issuspended for the next 2 games. Who knows , there are many different ways to police this. If it is not clear in the rulebook , then I think it is unfair to force a forfeit.

To me it all comes down to this.........Yes there is a rule against pitching more than 17 innings per week , no denying that. Butif that isn't written to say that such an offender must forfeit the game , thenwho is to say a forfeit is the correct punishment. The fault lies in how the rule is written. IF it is not clear that a forfeit is in order then it is wrong to just assume it is.</p>

 

[Todd4State]

Now for my opinion:

As many of you know I am not a huge fan of pitch counts and really have no problem with a pitcher throwing 150 pitches if that pitcher is able to handle that kind of workload and the pitching routine is sound. I hope Nolan Ryan's plan spreads like wildfire across America.

But, this this is different because it is high school vs college or the pros. Some of these kids are 15, 16 years old. Some of them aren't done growing or developing even though they may be 18. I am all for a defined rule to protect these pitchers because it is in their best interests. Especially when they have potential scholarships and maybe even millions of dollars at stake.

I think the premise of the rule is good. Especially in a sport where you hear stories year after year of guys throwing three games in three days and then never being thre same after that. But I have to agree with RebelBruiser, and Pat and all of the others that say that the rule needs to be defined more clearly. That is where the real problem lies.

If I was the one making the ruling, this is how I would do it- I would have to go with Hamilton. Why? Because the fact that Bruce took their pitcher out at the 17 and 2/3 mark tells me that they were at least somewhat conscious of the rule. I'm sure that they will argue with what Bruiser said, but since there were no games the week after the game, that tells me that they were trying to bend the rule, which to me is actually worse than just honestly screwing it up in the first place. Also, unless you're Morman like Chris Petersen, you start your week on Sunday and then go from there. And even if Bruce is the BYU of Mississippi high schools, they still broke the rule. And I hate to make that ruling because I think the game should be settled on the field.

 

[jeremyrbrown]

http://www.misshsaa.com/P...ndbooks/handbook2010.pdf

pg 17, item q

Any school that is found to be using an ineligible player in interschool competition shall have all games won while the ineligible player was participating forfeited to its opponents. The ineligible player shall be dropped from the team and the sport or activity placed on probation for a period not to exceed two seasons. The same actions may be taken if the ineligible player is permitted to participate in interschool competition in accordance with the terms of a court restraining order or injunction against the student’s school and/or this Association and the restraining order or injunction is subsequently voluntarily vacated, stayed, reserved or it is finally determined by the courts that injunctive relief is not or was not justified or expires without further judicial determination.

 

[AceLeroy]

MaybeI spoke too much.

To shorten what I posted.........Yes , the rule was broken. However if the punishment for breaking that rule isn't stated in the rulebook , Who is to say that the punishment should be a forfeit?

 

[Johnson85]

an "ineligible player"?

 

[AceLeroy]

http://www.misshsaa.com/P...ndbooks/handbook2010.pdf

pg 17, item q

Any school that is found to be using an ineligible player in interschool competition shall have all games won while the ineligible player was participating forfeited to its opponents. The ineligible player shall be dropped from the team and the sport or activity placed on probation for a period not to exceed two seasons. The same actions may be taken if the ineligible player is permitted to participate in interschool competition in accordance with the terms of a court restraining order or injunction against the student’s school and/or this Association and the restraining order or injunction is subsequently voluntarily vacated, stayed, reserved or it is finally determined by the courts that injunctive relief is not or was not justified or expires without further judicial determination.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

but define ineligible. Does the rulebook do that?

It has to be specific. Ineligible could refer to players who did not attend the school they were playing for , players who were to old , or players who didn't have good enough grades to play.

Does the rulebook refer to pitchers who have thrown 17 innings in a week as ineligible? Defining inelgible in the rulebook is just as important as being specific about the punishment for any rule that is broken.

 

[JimHalpert.nafoom]

nm

 

[Johnson85]

(i apparently have too much time on my hands, but that's probably true for most people on this board)

and I didn't scour the rules, but I would say the section regarding ineligible players does not apply toa pitcher pitching more than 17 innings in a week. The rules essentially make the penalty discretionary, specifically allowing but not requiring certain penalties, including forfeiture, suspension, fines, etc. So basically one of the schools is going to be pissed off and have a decent argument why they're pissed off.</p>

 

[Todd4State]

but it DOES clearly say that if you have a pitcher that goes over the 17 inning limit in a week, they're not supposed to pitch, which I guess is another way of saying ineligible.

One thing I think all can agree on- the MHSAA needs to be a little more specific.

 

[patdog]

If the rule clearly states that he can only pitch 17 innings in 1 week, what else would he be after the 17th inning? Regardless of rules or whatever, that coach should have his *** kicked and be blackballed from ever coaching again. He pitched that kid for 10.2 innings in 24 hours, with only 3 days rest from a 7 inning performance.