Hey Dean....

[GMAN81]

The likely inability of the White Sox to win another title in the near future does not diminish my 2005 pride in any way. Zip.

Come to think of it, to put it in your terms, the people who were in second grade when the Cubs won their last World Series have been dead for 50 years.

Hahaha! Actually, that last line is pretty funny. I didn't realize you have a sense of humor. It is a good thing to smile once in a while.

Just so you know, the Hawks have won four cups in your lifetime. But I digress. You have the right to celebrate any way you want. Just beware when the Cubs do win that championship (yes I said when) It will all come back to you and then some. Be prepared to take it as well as you dish it out. Believe me, the Cub fans are gonna dish it out. Fine with me.

I don't stick that championship in the faces of Cub fans anymore. I did it at first, then realized I was acting like most of them will act when it comes their way. When they win it I will be the first to congratulate them. I have two close friends who are Cub fans. I was shocked when the Sox won that both of them said, the Sox "got lucky." Not sure how going 11-1 equates to being "lucky." I told myself right then that I won't act that way no matter how they win it. But I will remind both of them how they acted and point out the difference.

To me 2005 was fun, but 2005 is over. I think 10 years is long enough. Time for another although I don't think it is going to happen for a very long while.

 

[eireog]

Anyone feeling better with the addition of Todd Frazier ? Brett Lawrie ? Addition by subtraction Ty Flowers ?

 

[DeanOfSelection]

The 3 guys they got rid of I was not too high on . I feel great about Frazier at third and ok about Lawrie. Only untouchable for me in a trade was Fulmer.

 

[mchsalumni]

Thompson could come back to bite them, but losing a guy who throws a flat 100 MPH fastball is not a big deal. I like the move, just getting the same feeling i had when they moved Aaron Rowand. Thompson, while maybe not the best player around, gave them a spark.

 

[GMAN81]

Lukewarm about the Frazier deal. Could end up being Adam Dunn II.

 

[MC63]

"Just so you know, the Hawks have won four cups in your lifetime. "

Yes - you're right ... the first one wasn't a big deal ... not like today. There was no parade, no highlights on the news. If I hadn't read the Sun Times over the shoulder of the guy in front of me on the Stony Island bus, I might not have known.

Back then, sports did not overwhelm our culture. You might not believe this, but when Loyola won the NCAA basketball tournament in 1963, it wasn't shown on live TV. Really. The only way to know the score was to listen to Red Rush on the radio ("He eyes it, he tries it, he buys it. In like Gonnella bread on your table, mom!")

When the old Chicago Sting won their championship ( in the late 70s or early 80s), it too, was shown on tape delay.

I'm not sure when they started showing tape highlights on the news, but it wasn't common in the 60s.

Perhaps the most significant story I can tell you about how relatively insignificant sports were back then ... in the early to mid 1960s, they played a second All Star game to raise $$$ for the pension fund. In 1962, it was at Wrigley Field. I took the el to Addison and walked up to the ticket office. I plunked down $2 and I got a bleacher ticket. That was it. No scalpers ... no Stub Hub ... nothing.

 

[mchsalumni]

Lukewarm about the Frazier deal. Could end up being Adam Dunn II.

Frazier is a much better hitter than Dunn, and a great fielder. Don't see this happening.

 

[DeanOfSelection]

Frazier plays D as well. Definitely no Dunn.

 

[septon34]

The 3 guys they got rid of I was not too high on . I feel great about Frazier at third and ok about Lawrie. Only untouchable for me in a trade was Fulmer.

I agree, though am a little concerned about giving up Montas. However, despite Montas' electric arm, Fuller is a better prospect in my opinion.

IF Lawrie and Frazier produce offensively as expected, Sox can probably afford a light-hitting SS so long as he is a stalwart defensively. Is Tyler Saladino good enough defensively to overlook his pretty pedestrian hitting?

 

[DeanOfSelection]

I like Saladino on club but he is not a major league starting SS to me. I doubt Tim Andersen is ready yet. I would not mind a Juan Uribe for a year. Would be cheap and give u a year until Andersen ready.

 

[Thedoctor50]

"Just so you know, the Hawks have won four cups in your lifetime. "

Yes - you're right ... the first one wasn't a big deal ... not like today. There was no parade, no highlights on the news. If I hadn't read the Sun Times over the shoulder of the guy in front of me on the Stony Island bus, I might not have known.

Back then, sports did not overwhelm our culture. You might not believe this, but when Loyola won the NCAA basketball tournament in 1963, it wasn't shown on live TV. Really. The only way to know the score was to listen to Red Rush on the radio ("He eyes it, he tries it, he buys it. In like Gonnella bread on your table, mom!")

When the old Chicago Sting won their championship ( in the late 70s or early 80s), it too, was shown on tape delay.

I'm not sure when they started showing tape highlights on the news, but it wasn't common in the 60s.

Perhaps the most significant story I can tell you about how relatively insignificant sports were back then ... in the early to mid 1960s, they played a second All Star game to raise $$$ for the pension fund. In 1962, it was at Wrigley Field. I took the el to Addison and walked up to the ticket office. I plunked down $2 and I got a bleacher ticket. That was it. No scalpers ... no Stub Hub ... nothing.

Anyone remember when the Cubs gave a free season pass to all HS varsity players in the 70's. It later changed to 3 per team. Not sure when the program ended.

 

[USD24]

Anyone remember when the Cubs gave a free season pass to all HS varsity players in the 70's. It later changed to 3 per team. Not sure when the program ended.

The Sox should do that now!

 

[DeanOfSelection]

2017 is more where I am looking as Danks and LaRoche will be off the books. Fulmer should be in the rotation then as well along with Rodon who should be hitting stride, Sale and Quintana. Andersen at Short we will find out what we have. Plus MC should be really good in '17 lets just skip to next year LOL

 

[mchsalumni]

2017 is more where I am looking as Danks and LaRoche will be off the books. Fulmer should be in the rotation then as well along with Rodon who should be hitting stride, Sale and Quintana. Andersen at Short we will find out what we have. Plus MC should be really good in '17 lets just skip to next year LOL

I like it all, but I think Montini's only shot at a win against MC is '16, so that part can stay.

And I said they have a shot, not a guaranteed win.

 

[Corey90]

It is obvious that Pete Rose's biggest problem has always been Pete Rose. Way back when he was a player he was warned by Sparky Anderson, Joe Morgan, Johnny Bench and even Curt Gowdy, among others, to stop hanging around with the seedy gamblers he was associating with.

But Rose didn't listen. I don't think he belongs in baseball or the HOF either. BUT, I will say this for him. He has spoken his mind about baseball and the HOF itself along with the guys who have votes. THAT is what is keeping him out as much as anything else. Every time he speaks negatively about baseball and the process of the HOF he pisses them off. They are at the point where he is never getting in...at least through them.

But what he says is right. I lost all respect with the HOF fame voting and process years ago. But, when they purposely kept Ron Santo out until after he was deceased, that did it for me. That was done purposely and I think it was rotten. Santo couldn't even get to enjoy the accomplishment in his living years and worse yet, he wasn't around to share it with his family. The year before Santo died his accomplishments in the game were the same as they were after he died. As far as I am concerned, the writers and HOF members who vote on this stuff are pieces of sh*t just like Rose. They are no better.

Agree 100% HOF are a bunch of morons what they did to Santo was just wrong. No reason for it period.
As far as a am concerned a black eye for baseball.

 

[MC63]

Agree 100% HOF are a bunch of morons what they did to Santo was just wrong. No reason for it period.
As far as a am concerned a black eye for baseball.

Ron Santo was likely kept out of the HOF for all those years for two reasons. First, he stayed around too long. In his 15th and final season (with the White Sox, of all teams) he had his absolute worst season. He hit .221 with 5 homers and 41 RBIs. These numbers sorely affected his lifetime average. Secondly, he was famous for his post game blow-up against rookie outfielder Don Young who made a critical error against the Mets in '69. All the Cubs were messing up and for him to concentrate his anger on a rookie was considered very poor form. I remember all this stuff well because I was a Cub fan at the time.

The real Chicago HOF tragedy is Minnie Minoso. He's been snubbed so far for two reasons, as well. First, his very best years were behind him when he finally got to play in the majors. Secondly, Bill and Mike Veeck used him for publicity purposes by putting him into games later in life so he could be the oldest major leaguer or professional to come to bat. (Read the end of his Wikipedia page.) Many baseball people held a grudge against Minnie for this. The older Veeck should have known better; the younger Veeck was (and is) a smug jerk. You might recall him as a partner with Steve Dahl in the "disco demolition" fiasco that cost the Sox a forfeit.

 

[Corey90]

Ron Santo was likely kept out of the HOF for all those years for two reasons. First, he stayed around too long. In his 15th and final season (with the White Sox, of all teams) he had his absolute worst season. He hit .221 with 5 homers and 41 RBIs. These numbers sorely affected his lifetime average. Secondly, he was famous for his post game blow-up against rookie outfielder Don Young who made a critical error against the Mets in '69. All the Cubs were messing up and for him to concentrate his anger on a rookie was considered very poor form. I remember all this stuff well because I was a Cub fan at the time.

The real Chicago HOF tragedy is Minnie Minoso. He's been snubbed so far for two reasons, as well. First, his very best years were behind him when he finally got to play in the majors. Secondly, Bill and Mike Veeck used him for publicity purposes by putting him into games later in life so he could be the oldest major leaguer or professional to come to bat. (Read the end of his Wikipedia page.) Many baseball people held a grudge against Minnie for this. The older Veeck should have known better; the younger Veeck was (and is) a smug jerk. You might recall him as a partner with Steve Dahl in the "disco demolition" fiasco that cost the Sox a forfeit.

So
If your right they are still morons. Your going to hold 1 season and incident against him and keep him out of the HOF until after he passes. Real class!

Minnie he was a great player. Nice
guy I happen to meet at Sluggers. He is a good guy secretly told me he was a Cub fan at heart and always rooting for them. When he left he bought our entire group a round of drinks. He said he needed to leave his wife had dinner waiting and he had to hurry or would be in the dog house.
Really nice classy guy. I realize players do things during the heat of the moment but you can't do what they did to these two great players.

 

[GMAN81]

Ron Santo was likely kept out of the HOF for all those years for two reasons. First, he stayed around too long. In his 15th and final season (with the White Sox, of all teams) he had his absolute worst season. He hit .221 with 5 homers and 41 RBIs. These numbers sorely affected his lifetime average. Secondly, he was famous for his post game blow-up against rookie outfielder Don Young who made a critical error against the Mets in '69. All the Cubs were messing up and for him to concentrate his anger on a rookie was considered very poor form. I remember all this stuff well because I was a Cub fan at the time.

The real Chicago HOF tragedy is Minnie Minoso. He's been snubbed so far for two reasons, as well. First, his very best years were behind him when he finally got to play in the majors. Secondly, Bill and Mike Veeck used him for publicity purposes by putting him into games later in life so he could be the oldest major leaguer or professional to come to bat. (Read the end of his Wikipedia page.) Many baseball people held a grudge against Minnie for this. The older Veeck should have known better; the younger Veeck was (and is) a smug jerk. You might recall him as a partner with Steve Dahl in the "disco demolition" fiasco that cost the Sox a forfeit.

This is ridiculous. Corey is right. That has NOTHING to do with Santo being held out of the HOF. He was held out for some other reason. So he yelled at Don Young. So what. How many clubhouses in baseball have seen fist fights over the years? If Don Young couldn't handle getting yelled at by a veteran player then he couldn't handle playing major league baseball. He wasn't that good anyway and was out of the league shortly after that. Santo's hold up was a personal vendetta by some people.

As for Minnie Minoso don't make me laugh. He has no business even being seriously considered for the HOF and doesn't belong there. Being a nice guy doesn't count. If it did a lot of guys wouldn't be there. You want to argue about a Latin player being considered you would be better served to mention Dave Concepcion.

 

[MC63]

This is ridiculous. Corey is right. That has NOTHING to do with Santo being held out of the HOF. He was held out for some other reason. So he yelled at Don Young. So what. How many clubhouses in baseball have seen fist fights over the years? If Don Young couldn't handle getting yelled at by a veteran player then he couldn't handle playing major league baseball. He wasn't that good anyway and was out of the league shortly after that. Santo's hold up was a personal vendetta by some people.

As for Minnie Minoso don't make me laugh. He has no business even being seriously considered for the HOF and doesn't belong there. Being a nice guy doesn't count. If it did a lot of guys wouldn't be there. You want to argue about a Latin player being considered you would be better served to mention Dave Concepcion.

I never said I agreed with Santo's treatment, but he was resented by a lot of voting members of the HOF. His popularity in Chicago was never in question, but elsewhere - that's another story He was also widely disliked for his heel clicking. You don't have to believe it - I don't care.

Regarding Minoso, you're way off. Again - keep your blethering to yourself.

 

[GMAN81]

I never said I agreed with Santo's treatment, but he was resented by a lot of voting members of the HOF. His popularity in Chicago was never in question, but elsewhere - that's another story He was also widely disliked for his heel clicking. You don't have to believe it - I don't care.

Regarding Minoso, you're way off. Again - keep your blethering to yourself.

You just made my point about Santo. That whole thing was personal and not what he accomplished on the field. The guys who took their votes personal against Santo shouldn't have been allowed to vote.
You are the one writing drivel. Make your case logically as to why Minoso belongs in the HOF. You said his very best years were behind him when he broke into the big leagues. He took his first major league at bats when he was 24 and played his first full season when he was 25. It is well known that a player doesn't reach his prime until he is about 26 or 27. So, his best years were ahead of him. Jackie Robinson didn't break into the big leagues until he was 28. So, your argument about Minoso breaking in too late is just plain ignorance. You have let the fact that you are a dyed in the wool White Sox fan cloud any logical judgement. Just because you loved the guy as a kid is no reason to put him in the HOF or suggest be belongs there.

I'll name you some players who were ALL better than Minoso who aren't in the hall of fame. Dave Concepcion, Thurman Munson, Graig Nettles, Vada Pinson, (should I go on? because I certainly can) Hell, Harold Baines was a far better player than Minoso and has never received more than 6% of the vote while Minoso has received as much as 21% which shows most of the guys voting shouldn't be. Curt Flood was a better ball player than Minoso and he isn't getting in. Have you ever bothered to look at Pinson's numbers? 200 hits four times, 2757 total, stole 100 more bases in his career than Minoso. More career homeruns than Minoso. I can't believe this guy doesn't get serious consideration by the veterans committee. Mickey Rivers' numbers are right there with Minoso's and he has no chance.

The HOF fame should be an elite club. I feel like some of the guys there shouldn't be. Personally I don't think Phil Rizzuto belongs. The guy had a couple of good years and that's it. But he was a Yankee during some of their best years. Guess that meant something to whoever voted for him. I think it's wrong. I really question whether Ozzie Smith should be there. Certainly NOT a first time ballot like he was.

Make your case for Minoso and stick to facts.

 

[mchsalumni]

I really question whether Ozzie Smith should be there.

I agreed with you all the way until this part. Oz is definitely worthy, in my opinion.

 

[DeanOfSelection]

I really cant speak to Santo I never saw play. My point of reference goes to 84. Ozzie Smith to me is def HOF was best in MLB defensively at his position-maybe ever.

 

[DeanOfSelection]

I like it all, but I think Montini's only shot at a win against MC is '16, so that part can stay.

And I said they have a shot, not a guaranteed win.

MC def beats Montini at Gately in '17. Should have anywhere 12-14 starters back. Next year not sure yet. Who knows what next year brings ,people transfer etc. This year had 2 starters transfer def coulda used one on the Line.

 

[mchsalumni]

MC def beats Montini at Gately in '17. Should have anywhere 12-14 starters back. Next year not sure yet. Who knows what next year brings ,people transfer etc. This year had 2 starters transfer def coulda used one on the Line.

I thought 2016 was at Gately, but I could be wrong on that one. Sophs coming up are very solid class, good size, physical. Should be a good couple of years playing MC and BR.

 

[GMAN81]

Dean & MCHS:

You both make a compelling argument and it doesn't involve emotion. So, we can talk. Yeah, you are both probably right. Defensively, Smith had no peer. What surprised me when I looked again is that his offensive numbers are better than I thought. I didn't realize he stole almost 600 bases. I also didn't realize he had nearly 2500 hits. I pictured him around 2000. So he is worthy. BUT, with that said I still don't think he should have been a first ballot inductee.

 

[MC63]

You just made my point about Santo. That whole thing was personal and not what he accomplished on the field. The guys who took their votes personal against Santo shouldn't have been allowed to vote.
You are the one writing drivel. Make your case logically as to why Minoso belongs in the HOF. You said his very best years were behind him when he broke into the big leagues. He took his first major league at bats when he was 24 and played his first full season when he was 25. It is well known that a player doesn't reach his prime until he is about 26 or 27. So, his best years were ahead of him. Jackie Robinson didn't break into the big leagues until he was 28. So, your argument about Minoso breaking in too late is just plain ignorance. You have let the fact that you are a dyed in the wool White Sox fan cloud any logical judgement. Just because you loved the guy as a kid is no reason to put him in the HOF or suggest be belongs there.

I'll name you some players who were ALL better than Minoso who aren't in the hall of fame. Dave Concepcion, Thurman Munson, Graig Nettles, Vada Pinson, (should I go on? because I certainly can) Hell, Harold Baines was a far better player than Minoso and has never received more than 6% of the vote while Minoso has received as much as 21% which shows most of the guys voting shouldn't be. Curt Flood was a better ball player than Minoso and he isn't getting in. Have you ever bothered to look at Pinson's numbers? 200 hits four times, 2757 total, stole 100 more bases in his career than Minoso. More career homeruns than Minoso. I can't believe this guy doesn't get serious consideration by the veterans committee. Mickey Rivers' numbers are right there with Minoso's and he has no chance.

The HOF fame should be an elite club. I feel like some of the guys there shouldn't be. Personally I don't think Phil Rizzuto belongs. The guy had a couple of good years and that's it. But he was a Yankee during some of their best years. Guess that meant something to whoever voted for him. I think it's wrong. I really question whether Ozzie Smith should be there. Certainly NOT a first time ballot like he was.

Make your case for Minoso and stick to facts.

 

[MC63]

Your opinion of Minnie Minoso is of no importance to me whatsoever.

For anyone else wondeering, the Wikipedia page on Minnie summarizes his HOF situation rather succinctly: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnie_Miñoso

If this is insufficient for you, well, too bad.

I do agree with you on Phil Rizzuto. If he were an Oriole or an Indian, he'd have been forgotten.

 

[GMAN81]

Your opinion of Minnie Minoso is of no importance to me whatsoever.

For anyone else wondeering, the Wikipedia page on Minnie summarizes his HOF situation rather succinctly: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnie_Miñoso

If this is insufficient for you, well, too bad.

I do agree with you on Phil Rizzuto. If he were an Oriole or an Indian, he'd have been forgotten.

In reading the article it's clear to me where you got your opinion. Mix in an original thought or at least credit the writer of the article. Obviously what I think of Minoso, as a ball player, is of no importance to you because you are making an emotional argument. I am not. If you think Wikipedia is this "independent" source for information and is objective, you're more naive than I thought. Anyone can put information there. But the article does point out on thing of note. If Minoso is one of the very best players all time in the White Sox organization and did hold the career HR record for 18 years with a whopping 186, it shows just how sorry the organization is. Don't hold your breath...Minoso isn't getting in and doesn't deserve to. End of story. I am not trying to change your stubborn mind. No one could do that even when you are clearly wrong about things, which is pretty often. so it's a waste of time. He isn't getting in. Deal with it and move on.

Who will you think is deserving next? Ron Hansen, Pete Ward, Gene Freese, Ed Herrmann? Minnie Minoso...A-hahahaha.

 

[GMAN81]

I will go a little farther here. Nevermind the fact Minoso doesn't belong. Do you want to know just how f***ed up the HOF voting is? Scott Brosius was actually ON the 2007 ballot. He didn't get a single vote but why the hell was he even on the ballot? The guy played 11 seasons and had 1001 hits and hit .257. How in the world can you take ANY of these guys seriously when they put guys like this on the ballot? Guys like this shouldn't even be voting.

By the way Wally Joiner was also on that ballot. His numbers are also better than Minoso's . Not by much but better. Wally Joiner never received a single HOF vote. Here is another guy on that ballot better than Minoso. Devon White. When he played he was widely regarded as the best defensive center fielder in the league. His offensive numbers are also better than Minoso's. Yet he has never received a single HOF vote. Minoso has gotten as much as 21.1% of the vote. Why so much for Minoso and none for the others who were better players?

We might as well cut to the chase here. If Minoso was an American born is Piscataway, NJ he wouldn't have gotten a single vote either. This whole thing and push to get Minoso in by the uninformed is nothing more than a PC, emotional move. They gotta make sure they push for the guy born in Cuba for Cuban representation. Nevermind the fact that there are several dozen players more deserving. And it's not just the fact he was born in Cuba either. It's the time period in which he was born which included all the "wrongs" of baseball that play in too. Dave Concepcion's only problem was that he was born too late. You would see a push for him if he had been born around 1925 like Minoso. But I think Concepcion does deserve serious consideration regardless.

I should probably go back on what I said about Minoso never getting in. Ever since January of 2009 I have learned to expect anything and everything ridiculous in this country and world.

 

[UlbKA91]

WRT Concepcion, could the one-bounce throw be seen as a knock against his natural abilities (e.g. weak arm) and not as an ingenious adaptation of one's playing style to take advantage of home field conditions.