Hey Doc and other golf nerds, what do you make of the new Oakhurst
- Thread starter WVUCOOPER
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Trainwreck. Asking Nicklaus, Palmer, Trevino, and Player to co-design a course, with their huge egos, is too many cooks in the kitchen. I'm sure it will be a well-maintained, beautiful place. But golf courses, especially great ones, are works of art. And any artist has his own style and unique attributes he brings to a design-green complexes, bunkering, tee shapes, etc. So the course will have 4 different styles? Hodpodge Sporting Club?
Of those 4, Nicklaus is the only one with a impressive portfolio with several world-class designs. I don't think Palmer or Player has ever designed a course which is, or ever was, ranked on somebody's top 100 list. And I don't know that Trevino has ever designed anything. Justice sees this as a marketing strategy. But if he wants a respected course which can be highly ranked, he'd get Tom Doak or Coore and Crenshaw to build it. Or Tom Fazio-who did the Snead Course. Or even Jack by himself. But he wants a big media splash. And he'll pay for one. That course will end up being the least respected of all 5 there.....Old White-CB MacDonald-the father of American golf course architecture-doesn't get any more impressive a pedigree; Greenbrier-a Seth Raynor original redesigned by Nicklaus (the best course there imo); Meadows-Bob Cupp-world class architect who also redesigned my home club-Oak Ridge CC btw; and the Snead-Tom Fazio. Trainwreck indeed. But those 4 will be laughing all the way to the bank.
Why don't you get in touch with Justice and give him your thoughts. You seem to have some clout within the golfing circles.
Dead on correct.
This will be a great marketing tool and a way to charge a premium for people to play a tricked up resort course. Just like the Nicklaus/Palmer design at the WGV. Absolutely horrendous design of a course (in terms of what a Championship course should be) charging a large fee to play.
I've played that course-King and the Bear. I think each designed a 9. Very bland. I can hardly remember any holes.
I made it through the original course there. Slammer and Squire. Decent resort course. Was a rainy day when we played King/Bear and only got about 8 holes in. Very uninspired and boring course. Granted, it is built out of a swampland so to get any decent feature, it had to be manmade and that cost a bunch of dollars. You can see that type of work on the Nicklaus course they just played the Prez Cup at in Korea. But there, they put the money and work behind it to create challenging and interesting holes. At WGV, it is nothing more than some green grass with some water and bunkers placed between a tee box and a green. Then repeat on the next hole.
I wouldn't presume to disagree with your assessment; first, because I don't disagree with it.....but also because I seriously doubt Justice privately gives two ***** about the new course's potential to achieve legendary (or even Tournament) status.
After all, he's already got two historic tracks on-site with the Raynor and Macdonald designs, so I suspect he was more focused (as an Owner) on uniqueness; not all that easy to achieve anymore unless you have a piece of ground.....or an unlimited budget, which likely was on the high side to begin with given that these four were involved.....comparable to something like Bandon Dunes or Sand Hills or Whistling Straits. So, why not do it the "easy" way; have these four design 1/4 of the circus tent over top the property so that their names can be printed on the scorecard.
One more thing involving money; since this a "shared" Design, I seriously doubt Nicklaus and Palmer.....and perhaps Player too, though I've no clue what kind of design business Mex has....are classifying this track as so-called "Signature" designs. Of course, that means their respective Staffs.....and frankly, not even necessarily the absolute top associate designer(s) at each firm..... probably did most (if not all) the work anyway. Paying these four guys pretty much solely for their names probably saved Justice money.
BTW, this is in no way intended as a defense of Justice; it's more my personal perspective.....and beyond that, I'm the last guy he needs in his corner. But I absolutely think his primary goal on this project was solely to find a way to max out greens fees for his monied guests (while perhaps ensuring it doesn't take away, in a design or historic sense, from the incumbent Greenbrier or Old White courses). After all, he still needs to sell greens fees for those tracks as well.
Or not......
opcorn:I wouldn't presume to disagree with your assessment; first, because I don't disagree with it.....but also because I seriously doubt Justice privately gives two ***** about the new course's potential to achieve legendary (or even Tournament) status.
After all, he's already got two historic tracks on-site with the Raynor and Macdonald designs, so I suspect he was more focused (as an Owner) on uniqueness; not all that easy to achieve anymore unless you have a piece of ground.....or an unlimited budget, which likely was on the high side to begin with given that these four were involved.....comparable to something like Bandon Dunes or Sand Hills or Whistling Straits. So, why not do it the "easy" way; have these four design 1/4 of the circus tent over top the property so that their names can be printed on the scorecard.
One more thing involving money; since this a "shared" Design, I seriously doubt Nicklaus and Palmer.....and perhaps Player too, though I've no clue what kind of design business Mex has....are classifying this track as so-called "Signature" designs. Of course, that means their respective Staffs.....and frankly, not even necessarily the absolute top associate designer(s) at each firm..... probably did most (if not all) the work anyway. Paying these four guys pretty much solely for their names probably saved Justice money.
BTW, this is in no way intended as a defense of Justice; it's more my personal perspective.....and beyond that, I'm the last guy he needs in his corner. But I absolutely think his primary goal on this project was solely to find a way to max out greens fees for his monied guests (while perhaps ensuring it doesn't take away, in a design or historic sense, from the incumbent Greenbrier or Old White courses). After all, he still needs to sell greens fees for those tracks as well.
Or not......
The new course and the current Snead Course at The Sporting Club are not (will not be) available to guests at the hotel. Both are only accessible by members of the Sporting Club ie owners of property he sells. Which brings me to my point about building a world-class course by an esteemed, respected architect (Coore& Crenshaw, Doak, etc). If he did that and opened the new one to guests of the hotel (ie the public), he could make the Greenbrier a golf destination like Bandon, Pebble, Koehler, Cabot. It is not a golf destination currently. It has two really good courses but only the Old White is considered by the major rankings as a great course and it's only ranked around 150 or so. If he built a top 50 type course-and he could given his resources-he could turn The Greenbrier into a must visit golf location-which it is currently not. He is obviously more focused on selling property which is fine. But from the perspective of making the Greenbrier and WV a golf destination for tourists (serious traveling golf nuts), the opportunity is lost.
I bet Nicklaus, Palmer, Trevino and Player got paid up front, unlike some of the people who have other dealings with Mr Justice.
I don't usually pay to play great courses. I usually earn my way there by qualifying for a National championships. It takes many years for a course to mature. We shall see.
I don't usually pay to play great courses. I usually earn my way there by qualifying for a National championships. It takes many years for a course to mature. We shall see.
I'd disagree with that. There are a lot of great courses which are new and the quality of the grass and greens are excellent. Pikewood and Pete Dye Clubs come to mind as do Old MacDonald, Pacific Dunes and Cabot Links. I played them all soon after they opened and was amazed at the quality of the fairways and greens. It's amazing how good agronomists are these days. Unfortunately, there aren't many courses being built these days. The only people building, it seems, are mega-rich guys who want their own personal Augusta National. It's a shame that, with Justice's resources, that he's going this route. Short-sighted in my opinion.
It is almost impossible with many issues including the tax system, utility costs, government fees such as alcohol license and just normal maintenance to make ends meet developing daily fee courses in today's society with a declining participation from those without a silver spoon in their mouth. Too many are closing over the past 15 years because it is simply too expensive to operate and the land owners can develop the land into other things way more profitable. Only courses that can afford to be built are top end resort courses or private courses with equity membership.
I know what you are saying but greens take several years to really mature. If they sod the course then it does take much less time. I still say that three years is a minimum but that the greens get with time. That's why they shot the scores they shot at congressional. One year old greens, just not firm enough or healthy enough.
I played the Honors Course last spring about a week after they re-opened for the spring. They had just converted their greens from bent to one of the hybrid Bermudas-maybe Champions. Anyway, they were perfect. I was astonished. And it only cost about $500K to do which was equally astonishing. I'm sure some of the grow in is influenced by climate too.
They tent the greens and force in Sodium bromide and kills everything. Smells terrible. We did on one of our diseased greens once. Once everything is dead, seed it with bermuda and it's done very quickly. Bent grass is different. I played in the 2004 southern am at the Honors course. I shot 76-71 and was tied for 23rd. I was tied with a young man by the name of Webb Simpson. I had Roberto castro by three and ended up beating Sam Saunders. Walking that course and paying it all the way back for 72 holes was a lot for a 49 year old. I went back and looked at the scores later and that's when I recognized those names. Honors course is a hell of a course.
That's pretty cool! I've had two brushes with greatness. 1. Scott Stallings beat me in our club championship about 7 years ago. I lasted 17 holes until he closed me out 3&1. I shot 70 to his 69. Even through 9 holes. I've played with Scott several times through the years-watched him grow up at our club. 2. Bill Haas clipped me by 5 shots a 36 hole US Amateur qualifier. He got one of the 2 spots in the 70 or 80 man field. I got to go home.
One of my WVU teammates, Mike Tennant, played against Davis Love III in a college tournament once. This was back when DLIII, as a college player, was considered one of the longest guys in the game. He was legendary. Well, Mike was one of the longest guys I've ever seen and still is to this day. So their group tees off on the opening hole and both hit it on the same line over a hill and they couldn't see the balls landing. DLIII is walking ahead of Mike and stops at the first ball (which was about 20 yards short of the next ball ahead) and waits and doesn't even look at the ball. Mike walks up a few seconds later, looks at the ball and tells DLIII that it's DL's ball and he's away. Mike said the look on DLIII's face was priceless. Tennant used to love to tell that story
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If you played that well against Scott, I need 1 a side! In the 2003 US Mid, I took down the guy who took down Trip Kehne. You probably know David Noll who's like the 9 time player of the year in Georgia. I also took down Scott hardy that year who lost to Trip Kehne in the semis the year that Trip finally got his USGA championship. What years did you play at WVU? I signed up for the golf team in 76, to get some free golf at the Pines, but I was taking Embryology and trying to get in Dental school so I only played three times.
I started WVU in 1979. They dropped golf in 1982. So I only played 2 full years. I lettered both years and made the All-Eastern 8/Atlantic 10 Conference team my last year. Finished 3rd in the conference championship hosted by Rutgers. Team finished 3rd too. And we qualified for the NCAA Regional that last year. We were actually pretty good. I played anywhere from #1 to #5. Started out my last year in the #1 spot. Probably some of the funnest memories of my life was playing golf at WVU. Traveling around with a great group of guys, playing fun courses with the tab picked up. Wish I could go back and do it again. We traveled around in a white cargo van with bench seats and no air conditioning. Now they have a Mercedes van with video monitors and wifi. Unreal.
I never had the opportunity to play like that. I played in my first tournament after dental school. My first state am qualifier at Glade, I was so nervous I hit the same tree twice. I went 8, 8, 5. I still walked all 36. Guys here tell me about Roanoke Colleges coach getting sick and the school let them drive to the tournament at Myrtle Beach by themselves in Nov. They all got so drunk, one slept in the parking lot with his head on the concrete parking stop cause it felt good. One slept in a bathtub. The stories were hysterical.
Once we knew that our program was toast, we lived it up ourselves that last semester. Some wild shenanigans for sure.
I've pretty much given up on competitive golf. I just can't hit it far enough any more. I haven't even played in our club championship for the last 4 years. I made it to the semis then and was on a collision course to play my son in the finals but played horribly in that match to lose. My son ended up winning that year and beat the guy who beat me 4&3. I really wanted to play him although I had little chance-but, as you know, in match play, anything can happen. That same year, I made it to the finals of the senior division of our club championship and the final group was my match and my son's final match. UT's golf coach came to watch my son play his match. I was a nervous wreck and played embarrassingly awful and lost to a guy who I'd normally beat 99 out of 100 times. But I was proud of my son. When he won, we became the only father and son to each have won the club championship in the 75 year history of our club. And there have been a lot of good father-son players who've played including the Stallings. Since I'll be 55 next year, I've toyed with the idea of trying to get my game in condition to try to qualify for the US Senior Open and Amateur. But that would be a longshot. But, just like the lottery, you can't win if you don't enter.
You know, I caught that after the fact but neglected to amend my post.......thanks for correcting me.
Once we knew that our program was toast, we lived it up ourselves that last semester. Some wild shenanigans for sure.
I've pretty much given up on competitive golf. I just can't hit it far enough any more. I haven't even played in our club championship for the last 4 years. I made it to the semis then and was on a collision course to play my son in the finals but played horribly in that match to lose. My son ended up winning that year and beat the guy who beat me 4&3. I really wanted to play him although I had little chance-but, as you know, in match play, anything can happen. That same year, I made it to the finals of the senior division of our club championship and the final group was my match and my son's final match. UT's golf coach came to watch my son play his match. I was a nervous wreck and played embarrassingly awful and lost to a guy who I'd normally beat 99 out of 100 times. But I was proud of my son. When he won, we became the only father and son to each have won the club championship in the 75 year history of our club. And there have been a lot of good father-son players who've played including the Stallings. Since I'll be 55 next year, I've toyed with the idea of trying to get my game in condition to try to qualify for the US Senior Open and Amateur. But that would be a longshot. But, just like the lottery, you can't win if you don't enter.
What's the name of your home course? I'm sure you've played Holston Hills, that's where Tony defeated Jackson in the finals. Is 64 there pretty good? [roll]
Oak Ridge Country Club is my course. It was originally designed by Ellis Maples, who also designed Grandfather and Pinehust #4 among many others. Bob Cupp re-designed it about 20 years ago. I've played Holston dozens of times-a solid Donald Ross design. 64 there is pretty good. UT used to host their invitational there which was called the Tournament of Champions. It was two tournaments in one. There was the college tournament. And then there was a separate tournament where all the club champions in the Knoxville area clubs and other area tournament winners were invited to compete. They had the rough really high and if you missed the fairway, you had to wedge it out. And the greens there, like many Ross designs, are fairly severely sloped from back to front. So if you're above the hole, you're pretty much screwed especially with how slick they had them shaved. Scores were very high. They can set it up to be brutal. But if the rough isn't bad, it can be had.
Grandfather is a special place. It had been a top 100 course forever until this year when it dropped out but just barely. There are some great courses over there around Boone...Grandfather, Diamond Creek, Linville Ridge, and the biggest sleeper imo is Elk River which is a wonder Nicklaus design. Hound Ears is pretty good too.
No. But I know about it. I've spent a lot of time in that part of NC too. I just played Cullasaja about a month ago. Wade Hampton is the mack daddy over there. One of my top 5 course I've ever played. many of their members are also members at Augusta National. Mountaintop is awesome too.
Stop hijacking my thread, you old bastards.