I know close to zero about MSU baseball, and you are the only guy around here who seems to have a clue. So how do you see it? From what I am hearing, we upgraded our starters and bullpen, but have failed to find a closer. Our defense stinks, and our bats are cold. Out of all of that, the lack of a closer sounds like the only thing we might not be able to turn around if our coaching staff is worth a damn. What do you think?
Hey Todd, how bad is it?
- Thread starter codeDawg
- Start date
I know close to zero about MSU baseball, and you are the only guy around here who seems to have a clue. So how do you see it? From what I am hearing, we upgraded our starters and bullpen, but have failed to find a closer. Our defense stinks, and our bats are cold. Out of all of that, the lack of a closer sounds like the only thing we might not be able to turn around if our coaching staff is worth a damn. What do you think?
No? Then youhave no clue.
For the record, 8dog and Cuzdawg are the best sources on MSU baseball, but Todd adds good things too.
For the record, 8dog and Cuzdawg are the best sources on MSU baseball, but Todd adds good things too.
"we have an average coach". I'm not sure about that one. Straight from one of the Ole Miss assistant coaches in regards to us getting Cohen..."when MSU hired Cohen that changes the entire game as far as college baseball recruiting in the SEC". I would say his counter-parts think he is an "above average coach/recruiter". We're six games into the season, so chill the 17 out. Alot of things can happen in baseball on any given weekend.
and it's pretty damn bad. Young, old, freshmen, senior, JUCO transfer....none of this has anything to do with fundamental baseball. None of it. We are the worst fundamentally sound baseball team I've witnessed in my 31 years of following MState baseball and this all boils down to coaching. SELA is the mark of a well-coached team. They aren't more talented than us, but they were MUCH better prepared for this past weekend and sure as hell seemed to want it a whole lot more than we did. I don't know if we just sleep-walked thru all of these games, just thinking we'd win because we had Mississippi State on the front of our jerseys, but that's pretty much what it looked like. We play with no emotion whatsoever. We can't field for ****. Looking at what Virginia did to RIU's pitching, it's becoming more and more obvious we can't hit for **** either. We are damn lucky right now not to be 2-5. 2 & freaking 5....this meanwhile playing all of our games in the comforting confines of Dudy Noble Field against mediocre competition at best.Every timea ball is put into play, I have no confidence an out will be made, even if it's a routine groundball. Nothing is routine when it comes to our defense and that again, is coaching. It was Christmas in June when Byrne hired Cohen over Raffo a year and a half ago. And while I'm still glad to have him over Raffo, I'm really starting to question if he was indeed the right man for the job. Cohen gets a pass for last season as it was his first year trying to turn things around and do it his way, but he has done absolutely nothing so far to make me think he is the right man for the job. I'm not ready to run anybody off as that would be pretty silly, considering he is only 7 games into his 2nd season here, but this team needs to start improving and improving quick. We should not be on the Croom plan as far as turning a program around. I just never thought I'd live to see us get swept by Directional Louisiana in baseball. I guess the question now is....Can it get worse? I keep telling myself it can't, but as we all know..it always can when it comes to MState athletics.
how long until another thread blaming Polk? Sure are talent is not going to win the SEC but we're playing way way way below where we should be.
some people need to understand that the shape our program was in was horrible. It takes more than a year to change how bad we were. Our recruiting class last year was pretty good and the one for this year is setting up to be pretty good, too. I am not throwing in the towel on this season, but I am not really expecting us to get where we should be until next season. Cohen was 24-30 and 29-27 in his first two years at UK. In his third, he went 44-19 and won the SEC with them. Think about that for a second.
But, I do have some questions. Were Cohen's UK clubs sloppy? What were his positives and negatives there? Did people regard those teams as "technically sound" or did they simply have big bats?
Like I said, I don't follow in detail, but I would like to get a better idea as to if we can expect this to carry on, or if we haven't been through enough of the season yet to officially call this a trend? Season 1 is an obvious free pass. But, besides this past weekend, what else can we based our Cohen judgments on?
Like I said, I don't follow in detail, but I would like to get a better idea as to if we can expect this to carry on, or if we haven't been through enough of the season yet to officially call this a trend? Season 1 is an obvious free pass. But, besides this past weekend, what else can we based our Cohen judgments on?
That's what a guy asked me at lunch today. I just stared and didn't answer. I'm afraid to even look it up because I'm pretty sure I already know the answer.
G
Goat Redux
Guest
You typed a bunch of garbage. First, it appears SELA is good. Second, if we go 4-1 this week, all will be forgotten. Three, we still haven't gotten our talent level up very far. JUCOs are unreliable at best, and we've had bad luck with injuries (Parks, Rawdow, Dixon). I mean, give the guy a break. We gave Croom 3 years before this type of bitching set in, and Cohen actually has a resume. Have you seen the players he's bringing in?
My guess: Cohen hyped up the players and fans for this year, and rightly so. We have improved. But they are probably freaking out - MSU has never been in the bottom feeder position before. Give the man a chance to do the job he was hired to do.
My guess: Cohen hyped up the players and fans for this year, and rightly so. We have improved. But they are probably freaking out - MSU has never been in the bottom feeder position before. Give the man a chance to do the job he was hired to do.
codeDawg said:
Don't forget Bruce Castoria posts on here, and he has some actual pro experience.
To me, I was pretty disappointed in how the team played.
Fri.- Our closer blew the game on Fri., but I don't think blowing one game means that the job is automatically taken away, nor should it be. If I am remembering correctly, Devin Jones pitched on Sunday and did fine. In other words, just becuase a guy had a bad game, it doesn't mean that he can't or won't get the job done. So, for now Devin Jones is the closer, but if he does struggle, look for Ben Bracewell or CC Watson to get a shot. The good news about this game was that Nick Routt pitched really well.
Sat.- Our defense let us down. Looking at Chris Stratton, he needs to add another pitch, which I think he will in time, and when he does he will be a very good pitcher. We made five errors, but if you look at the weekend this was the only game that we had more than one error. I will say that on Sunday we had several "mental errors"- errors that don't go down in the scorebook as errors like allowing a guy to steal home.
Sun.- If Cohen made a mistake, it was not pitching Tyler Whitney and going with Corey Collins who allowed three runs early in the game. Now, I know that's hindsight and Whitney could have pitched worse, but if your team loses the first two games of a series, I would want a guy who has some experience out there and take my chances there. Again, we had some mental errors that hurt us, but we still had a chance to win in the ninth with our best hitter up and we just didn't get it done.
All right, how do we fix this? I think as far as the defense, it seems like most of the problems lie with the infield. Like I said, I think you will see some guys moved around and I think that you will see Sam Frost play more. That's already happening- Frost started at second and we only had one error, so that's a start. Also, as everyone knows, Cohen wants to play aggressive. I think what is happening is that some of the players are trying too hard to be aggressive and they're doing stupid things sometimes. Like the left fielder throwing the ball God knows where. It's not that they can't play aggressive, or are pussies or anything like that or are even bad players. But they also know that if they don't play the way Cohen wants, they will be benched. I'm not making excuses, I'm just saying what I think is going on. The guy that the runner stole home on was a freshman pitcher, and I think that was due to inexperience as much as anything. Back to the outfielders, I would tell them for the next five games, all I want them to do is hit the cut off man. If someone takes an extra base, they take an exta base. Don't try to throw the runner out at first or anything like that, just hit the cut off man. After they start doing that, that will likely build their confidence up and then in a few weeks, we can go back to trying to throw people out and stuff like that.
Offensively, we scored one run in the first game off of their ace, but then we scored five the next two. To me, five runs should be sufficient to win plenty of games. If it were up to me, I would try to do a little bit more running becuase it seems like we are either hitting a single or a home run. Hitting is hard enough without asking a guy to specifically hit a double. If we keep hitting well, those extra base hits will come. On Sat., we also had some tough luck because we had a runner thrown out at third after he tripped on the basepaths and fell down, and then Conner Powers crushed a ball into the wind that probably goes out nine out of ten times. It does seem like we chase a lot of high pitches sometimes- and those are tough to lay off of.
People also have to remember that this team has to learn how to win. They have to understand that a team like SELU is going to play thier best and treat playing MSU like their World Series because they know that for them to get an at-large bid, they need as many wins against the MSU's and LSU's of this world. They won 37 games last year, and did not make it to the postseason I believe and they finished second in their conference. Someone can correct me on that if I'm wrong, but I don't think they made a Regional. Our players have to understand that and match their intensity. I think our team learned a lot of valuable lessons this weekend in regards to that.
As far as Cohen, I think he has done a pretty good job so far. It has only been two weeks into the season, and we need to give him time to try to fix the problems before we judge how he did this year. The freshmen pitchers have looked very impressive for freshmen. It's going to be very exciting to watch them develop over the next few years. Many are better than I thought. The JUCO guys have been kind of mixed to me, but they were also JUCO for a reason. I think Cohen simply wanted guys that could come in and fit his style more, and I do think that the JUCO guys in general do fit his style more than the players last year.
Ultimately, I think we will be OK, and I still stand by my 30-26 prediction for now. I think after seeing what happened to Rhode Island, I think it's apparent that they are not all that great. But they also lost to the #2 team in the country right now on the road, and on the other hand SELU may be better than I thought. They are 7-0 right now and I know that SEBaseball.com called them one of the most impressive looking teams in week one. At any rate, it's still difficult to tell where these teams stand and how good they are or aren't, but we still have room for improvement.
I don't think that's going over the top and I wasn't really even bitching, just stating facts. I'm still on the Cohen wagon, but like I said, it's time to start showing some improvement and start showing it rather quickly. Getting swept by Directional Louisiana in baseball is unacceptable.
with Will Clark and Palmeiro.
No, Polk never lost to SELU, but it's not like he beat everyone he should've.
No, Polk never lost to SELU, but it's not like he beat everyone he should've.
ckDOG said:
in his first or second year. They had NO talent except for John Shelby, Jr. UK was the worst team in terms of talent of any SEC team I had ever seen.
They played very hard, and they were very fundamentally sound. MSU beat them, but it was because we had more talent than they did. I was actually impressed with how they played. They had no business being on the same field with us, but they made a game of it with their hustle and by playing aggressively.
Stansbury does this too, which is the reason is loses some of the out of conference games he does that we all love to gripe about. I hope Cohen finds the right combination soon though. It irks the crap out of me to not play defensively sound baseball.
This is kind of what I thought. Cohen had better get to coaching. One thing that makes me feel better is that I know we can recruit top talent to MSU over the next couple of years. It's not like football where we get a few great in-state guys plus the big program's leftovers. It's difficult to tell if Cohen just doesn't have the talent to play his aggressive style of game, or if his previous success has simply come from his ability to get great talent: see Miles, Les.
i am by no means and expert and very rarely do i post on here but heres my two cents for what its worth..
1) we have a good coach but lack mature depth at key positions. Give him 1 more year and i think you'll see hes legit
2)Devin Jones- this kid is hit or miss. He consistently throws 94 but whether he can pump in strikes is yet to be determined. Also Bracewell is going to be a stud. Guy throws deceptively hard and has a unusual release thats hard to pick up. I do believe he is going to be one of our future starters. The freshman we brought in this year are the real deal they just need to grow up fast this year if we have a chance at competing
3) Offense minus connor powers - with the exception of maybe ogden, vickerson, and powers, I have yet to see us tear it up. If we dont hit this year with our young pitchers we have no chance. Polk left cohen with very very very little talent and it is really showing now. So if youre going to blame someone blame Polk.
I watched all 3 games this past weekend and it was miserable to watch.
1) we have a good coach but lack mature depth at key positions. Give him 1 more year and i think you'll see hes legit
2)Devin Jones- this kid is hit or miss. He consistently throws 94 but whether he can pump in strikes is yet to be determined. Also Bracewell is going to be a stud. Guy throws deceptively hard and has a unusual release thats hard to pick up. I do believe he is going to be one of our future starters. The freshman we brought in this year are the real deal they just need to grow up fast this year if we have a chance at competing
3) Offense minus connor powers - with the exception of maybe ogden, vickerson, and powers, I have yet to see us tear it up. If we dont hit this year with our young pitchers we have no chance. Polk left cohen with very very very little talent and it is really showing now. So if youre going to blame someone blame Polk.
I watched all 3 games this past weekend and it was miserable to watch.
we just started throwing the ball around about three weeks ago. Just looked like complete **** in the catch the ball, throw the ball, hit the ball aspects of the game.
was definitely the right choice for our job (ask me in a couple of years) BUT I do know that Polk should have NEVER been given a second stint and that Raffo was not the man for the MSU job given he was an accomplice to Polk in taking our program into the crapper. When a program slides down the tubes the way ours had you DO NOT reward that staff by keeping the status quo.
We get swept once and the world is over. Guys, we have a young young team. They are going to go through these tough times. Trust me, I am just as disappointed as you are. We should NEVER get swept by a directional lousiana school.I can't remember it ever happening since I have been paying attention.
The good:Our players sat there and watched them celebrate on our field after that Sunday loss. They felt thatsting. You have to experience that to know what I'm talking about. It will motivate them a little more.
The bad: Our defense these first couple of weeks has been atrocious. That will hopefully change in time. You can take all the ground balls in the world with perfect form in practice but the game changes everything. When you're young, the game speeds up a little for you.Whenyou'renervous, the game speeds up a little for you.The players should be settled down a little now and will hopefully make a change in how we playdefensively.
The ugly: !#%# freaking swept this weekend after I talked trash tosome alumni about them losing their first game to a crap Louisiana school. Oops.
The good:Our players sat there and watched them celebrate on our field after that Sunday loss. They felt thatsting. You have to experience that to know what I'm talking about. It will motivate them a little more.
The bad: Our defense these first couple of weeks has been atrocious. That will hopefully change in time. You can take all the ground balls in the world with perfect form in practice but the game changes everything. When you're young, the game speeds up a little for you.Whenyou'renervous, the game speeds up a little for you.The players should be settled down a little now and will hopefully make a change in how we playdefensively.
The ugly: !#%# freaking swept this weekend after I talked trash tosome alumni about them losing their first game to a crap Louisiana school. Oops.
I really believe that had Raffo been given the job that Polk would have stayed around as his "volunteer assistant". If that had happened, Polk might very well have "gotten the itch" to coach at MSU for a third (fourth depending on if you're counting 1992) time. Raffo may very well have allowed him to do that, to.
Raffo leaving was best for him and us.
And I'll say this about Cohen- IF he doesn't work out, we should definately go with someone without any ties to MSU or Polk whatsoever. I don't care if they have ties to LSU, Arizona State or Delta State, but too many MSU fans have feelings towards certain coaches that it becomes detrimental.
Although, I will say that for me personally I thought Cohen would be the best choice regardless of his MSU ties, which I view as kind of a bonus because he knows the culture coming in. I was impressed with his hitting philosophies- I saw him talking on a TV segment about hitting once on TV, as well as his ability to recruit. I was also impressed with how his undermanned teams at UK played.
So far, he has recruited very well. His first class was in the top 10, and his current class has several Louisville Slugger All-Americans on it and will likely be ranked high as well. We are also recruiting Mississippi MUCH better than we did under Polk II. I have no doubt that based on his recruiting rankings compared to Polk's campers that if he did leave for whatever reason that the next guy would have some very talented players given to him.
I do think that Cohen's biggest obstacle has been Polk's players vs his style. Ron wanted players that would be very subserviant and he wanted guys that were definately going to be here for four years without having to worry about them leaving for the MLB draft. One thing he would do is "promise" guys that they would have positions for their four years- see Brad Jones- without fear that some hot shot recruit would come in and take their job. Basically Polk's players just wanted to play college baseball for four years and have a good experience doing it. Cohen is all about competition. The best players play, and that can vary from day to day. If you are hot, you play. If you're not, you sit. Because Polk's players are subserviant, they will try to do what Cohen wants, but part of playing aggressive baseball is about "want to". In other words, wanting to take that extra base no matter what, wanting to get that hit no matter what, wanting to get the batter out no matter what. Doing whatever it takes to win. A lot of it is personality- some people are more competitive than others. For example, Pete Rose had that "want to" when he played. But because a lot of it is personality, it's kind of hard for people that aren't that personality to be that. I'm not saying one is right or wrong, but that's what's going on.
And as far as Cohen's style and recruiting- I think his style actually fits Mississippi baseball players in general very well. Historically, football is big in this state and baseball in this state has been coached by assistant football coaches. So, what has happened is we play a brand of baseball that is somewhat aggressive and physical at the high school level. I hear about at least one benches clearing incident every year. It really shouldn't take him long to get the types of players he wants to fit the style he plays. And I'm talking about aggressive, not a bunch of goons. Although, I do enjoy a good brawl every now and then.
Raffo leaving was best for him and us.
And I'll say this about Cohen- IF he doesn't work out, we should definately go with someone without any ties to MSU or Polk whatsoever. I don't care if they have ties to LSU, Arizona State or Delta State, but too many MSU fans have feelings towards certain coaches that it becomes detrimental.
Although, I will say that for me personally I thought Cohen would be the best choice regardless of his MSU ties, which I view as kind of a bonus because he knows the culture coming in. I was impressed with his hitting philosophies- I saw him talking on a TV segment about hitting once on TV, as well as his ability to recruit. I was also impressed with how his undermanned teams at UK played.
So far, he has recruited very well. His first class was in the top 10, and his current class has several Louisville Slugger All-Americans on it and will likely be ranked high as well. We are also recruiting Mississippi MUCH better than we did under Polk II. I have no doubt that based on his recruiting rankings compared to Polk's campers that if he did leave for whatever reason that the next guy would have some very talented players given to him.
I do think that Cohen's biggest obstacle has been Polk's players vs his style. Ron wanted players that would be very subserviant and he wanted guys that were definately going to be here for four years without having to worry about them leaving for the MLB draft. One thing he would do is "promise" guys that they would have positions for their four years- see Brad Jones- without fear that some hot shot recruit would come in and take their job. Basically Polk's players just wanted to play college baseball for four years and have a good experience doing it. Cohen is all about competition. The best players play, and that can vary from day to day. If you are hot, you play. If you're not, you sit. Because Polk's players are subserviant, they will try to do what Cohen wants, but part of playing aggressive baseball is about "want to". In other words, wanting to take that extra base no matter what, wanting to get that hit no matter what, wanting to get the batter out no matter what. Doing whatever it takes to win. A lot of it is personality- some people are more competitive than others. For example, Pete Rose had that "want to" when he played. But because a lot of it is personality, it's kind of hard for people that aren't that personality to be that. I'm not saying one is right or wrong, but that's what's going on.
And as far as Cohen's style and recruiting- I think his style actually fits Mississippi baseball players in general very well. Historically, football is big in this state and baseball in this state has been coached by assistant football coaches. So, what has happened is we play a brand of baseball that is somewhat aggressive and physical at the high school level. I hear about at least one benches clearing incident every year. It really shouldn't take him long to get the types of players he wants to fit the style he plays. And I'm talking about aggressive, not a bunch of goons. Although, I do enjoy a good brawl every now and then.
I haven't played softball in years. I played in a church league and it was fun at times, and really jacked up at times as well.