Hines the high draft pick

[o_HuntDawg]

I think he could be a 380/25 guy. No one, except for me, thought I would be a 360/29 guy after my Fr and So years. I adjusted.

I don't think there are a bunch of 265/15 college hitters who make it at the pro level. So he better figure it out.

again your talking about a guy that was polished when he walked onto campus. Those guys dont make big jumps.

Considering there are guys jumping from the SEC to the big leagues in 1 season or half a season..... the 270/15 mark is more in play than it was a few years ago. Not to mention the fact the league is deeper with talent than its ever been. I had a pro scout tell me the SEC is equivalant AA ball... thats the talent level in the league.. so 270/15 in the SEC isnt what it use to be when you are doing it against stiffer competition

 

[Bulldog Bruce]

again your talking about a guy that was polished when he walked onto campus. Those guys dont make big jumps.

Considering there are guys jumping from the SEC to the big leagues in 1 season or half a season..... the 270/15 mark is more in play than it was a few years ago. Not to mention the fact the league is deeper with talent than its ever been. I had a pro scout tell me the SEC is equivalant AA ball... thats the talent level in the league.. so 270/15 in the SEC isnt what it use to be when you are doing it against stiffer competition

I don't know what this "polished" idea is. I batted .581 my Junior year and .579 my Senior year in HS and won the highest championship you could. I faced 5 guys during those years that eventually pitched in the Major Leagues and one won a Cy Young. I was pretty "polished" and I improved and made big adjustments.

So my only conclusion is that you have no clue what you are talking about. The most successful hitters in MLB that played at MSU 2 were triple crown winners (Our only 2) and a Golden Spikes recipient. AND first basemen don't make it to MLB because of defense.

And by the way in 1979 we beat the Jackson Mets in a game at Smith Wills. I think they were AA at the time. SEC was always AA level.

 

[o_HuntDawg]

I don't know what this "polished" idea is. I batted .581 my Junior year and .579 my Senior year in HS and won the highest championship you could. I faced 5 guys during those years that eventually pitched in the Major Leagues and one won a Cy Young. I was pretty "polished" and I improved and made big adjustments.

So my only conclusion is that you have no clue what you are talking about. The most successful hitters in MLB that played at MSU 2 were triple crown winners (Our only 2) and a Golden Spikes recipient. AND first basemen don't make it to MLB because of defense.

And by the way in 1979 we beat the Jackson Mets in a game at Smith Wills. I think they were AA at the time. SEC was always AA level.

right bruce... enjoyed the talk. The game has changed immensley since your day. There are no more -5 and trampoline bats. Everyone is throwing 92+... the weight room didnt even matter back in the day. But compare your stats from 1977 and claim no one else has a clue whats going on... thats fine

You obvisouly werent as polished, with your 570 batting average in HS, as hines was because he came in and was very successful the day he stepped foot on campus. So either he was more polished than you (hard to belief since you were a high school monster).. or made his adjustments quick enough to play at a high level as a fresh and sophomore.

And no the SEC hasnt always been AA level... and its improved by leaps and bounds since your day. People didnt go from the SEC to the big leagues in a year... now they do.... its really not even an arguement. Raffy spent 2 full seasons in the minors before sticking in the bigs.. now kids are spending half that time or even half a season there before entering the league.. that never happened back in the day... if you are saying the SEC in your day is anything like the SEC is now... then youve fell off your rocker... the fact that you hit a robust 218 in your one season in low A.. means the SEC wasnt quite AA ball level my friend... if the SEC was AA back..then that low A level should have been like playing a Jr High Team.. someone like you would have hit 580 again right.. not 218 while leading the league in K's?

 

[maroontide06]

right bruce... enjoyed the talk. The game has changed immensley since your day. There are no more -5 and trampoline bats. Everyone is throwing 92+... the weight room didnt even matter back in the day. But compare your stats from 1977 and claim no one else has a clue whats going on... thats fine

You obvisouly werent as polished, with your 570 batting average in HS, as hines was because he came in and was very successful the day he stepped foot on campus. So either he was more polished than you (hard to belief since you were a high school monster).. or made his adjustments quick enough to play at a high level as a fresh and sophomore.

And no the SEC hasnt always been AA level... and its improved by leaps and bounds since your day. People didnt go from the SEC to the big leagues in a year... now they do.... its really not even an arguement. Raffy spent 2 full seasons in the minors before sticking in the bigs.. now kids are spending half that time or even half a season there before entering the league.. that never happened back in the day... if you are saying the SEC in your day is anything like the SEC is now... then youve fell off your rocker... the fact that you hit a robust 218 in your one season in low A.. means the SEC wasnt quite AA ball level my friend... if the SEC was AA back..then that low A level should have been like playing a Jr High Team.. someone like you would have hit 580 again right?

Word of advice: When Bruce speaks, you listen. He knows what he is talking about. Baseball is baseball. He has my respect and he needs to have yours.

 

[o_HuntDawg]

Word of advice: When Bruce speaks, you listen. He knows what he is talking about. Baseball is baseball. He has my respect and he needs to have yours.

i repsect the player he was.... but i know lots of good players, even a hall of famer in my phone... but just because he was a good player doesnt mean he speaks the gospel... and some of the things he says are very out-dated. For example no one in the game is referred to as a "spin hitter"... Respectfully....I can also tell you that in no organzation is there a page in the hitting book that says "back off the plate to eliminate the inside strike". Thats downright laughable... again respectfully. Pitchers can control both sides of the plate with precise command now... where as back in the day most people made a living pitching away.. because umpires were would give a few inches (or 4 if you were Greg Maddux) off that side of the plate....

Im old enough to remember those teams he played on.. but im also not dumb enough to think they game and talent that was on display during that time is anything like it is now.... there were talented players in that era, and those players could play in any era... but the game as a whole is leaps and bounds better.. and thats not even arguably. even if the all mighty bruce thinks it is.. hes dead wrong. I have a family member that is a white sox scout.. i'll go with his opinion of things over someone that played in the 80s... again respectfully.

and anyone that comes in here spouting off high school stats as a way to prove a point.. is again... way off the mark... respectfully.....I mean i know a guy that still holds some high school football records and played some college ball, even made a pro camp... but doesnt mean i'd trust him in regards to anything about the current game of football.

 

[OG Goat Holder]

I don't know what this "polished" idea is.

I THINK what he means, is that he was maxed out development-wise when he got here. And I would agree with that. Many of these overcoached travel ballers who aren't elite athletes seem to be that way, again, like Kellum Clark. Similar to Texas football talent.

But that doesn't explain Hines just getting worse and worse. Clark at least got better, even if it wasn't a huge jump. So that tells me that Hines is absolutely got problems with his swing and technique. No excuse for him to be playing this poorly.

But nimrod @HuntDawg would rather dig in and try to discredit folks based on paragraphs of bullshlt, than try and communicate clearly. Says stuff like "ThE gAmE hAs MuH cHaNgEd!!!11" but won't explain his reasoning.

 

[o_HuntDawg]

I THINK what he means, is that he was maxed out development-wise when he got here. And I would agree with that. Many of these overcoached travel ballers who aren't elite athletes seem to be that way, again, like Kellum Clark. Similar to Texas football talent.

But that doesn't explain Hines just getting worse and worse. Clark at least got better, even if it wasn't a huge jump. So that tells me that Hines is absolutely got problems with his swing and technique. No excuse for him to be playing this poorly.

But nimrod @HuntDawg would rather dig in and try to discredit folks based on paragraphs of bullshlt, than try and communicate clearly. Says stuff like "ThE gAmE hAs MuH cHaNgEd!!!11" but won't explain his reasoning.

you coulda just stopped at the first paragraph.

However i will say that again that Hines was our 2nd best hitter in SEC play last season.. he hit 12 homers in SEC play.. and the 2nd half of last season he hit nearly 300. He got off to a brutal start. Hopefully he wont get off to that slow of a start this season ... but again like you said in paragraph 1.. there wasnt much room for improvement the day he walked on campus. Some people expected him to be 380 with 30 bombs by this time and that just wasnt gonna happen....

that being said.. he's been an overly productive player his entire career here and if half his K's were ground outs or fly outs.. he wouldnt catch half the crap he does on these boards... people get carried about with the strikeouts and strikeouts are part of the game now.. and will always be a part of his game

 

[Bulldog Bruce]

i repsect the player he was.... but i know lots of good players, even a hall of famer in my phone... but just because he was a good player doesnt mean he speaks the gospel... and some of the things he says are very out-dated. For example no one in the game is referred to as a "spin hitter"... Respectfully....I can also tell you that in no organzation is there a page in the hitting book that says "back off the plate to eliminate the inside strike". Thats downright laughable... again respectfully. Pitchers can control both sides of the plate with precise command now... where as back in the day most people made a living pitching away.. because umpires were would give a few inches (or 4 if you were Greg Maddux) off that side of the plate....

Im old enough to remember those teams he played on.. but im also not dumb enough to think they game and talent that was on display during that time is anything like it is now.... there were talented players in that era, and those players could play in any era... but the game as a whole is leaps and bounds better.. and thats not even arguably. even if the all mighty bruce thinks it is.. hes dead wrong. I have a family member that is a white sox scout.. i'll go with his opinion of things over someone that played in the 80s... again respectfully.

and anyone that comes in here spouting off high school stats as a way to prove a point.. is again... way off the mark... respectfully.....I mean i know a guy that still holds some high school football records and played some college ball... but doesnt mean i'd trust him in regards to anything about the current game of football.

This is my last comment since you are not worth having a discussion with.

The plate is a fixed location in space. It does not move. Therefore the strike zone does not move and once we go to robo calling balls and strikes that will be absolute. So as a hitter you know where the pitcher HAS to throw the ball for a strike. So you can adjust your location in relation to that fixed area to have strikes be in a better location for your style of hitting. The ball has to be about 17 to 23 inches from your hands to hit the sweet spot on the barrel of the bat. Your angle of attack also is important to how large that sweet spot is at contact and to the direction of the balls path. To get jammed the ball is hitting the bat closer to your hands than that 17 inches point.

Therefore by moving off the plate you can make your hands automatically about 12 to 14 inches away from the inside corner of the plate. That will eliminate the inside pitch that can jam you on a strike. You don't have to swing at an "inside" pitch because it is not a strike. You just catch that inside strike ball more in front of your body and pull that pitch and hit the sweet spot and a get a fair ball. It does force you to make a little adjustment to an outside corner pitch but you just have to hit it deeper in the strike zone. Watch the Sullivan kids at bats during this past weekend. That is how he is hitting right now. That Grand Slam was an outside pitch that he hit deep in the zone.

Hunter's hands are over the plate when he goes through the strike zone and hits a ball up the middle. That's why he can't hit the ball into fair territory on a ball on the inside 4 inches of the plate. He would have to pull his hands into his body to keep the barrel at an angle to keep the ball fair off the sweet spot. Now some hitters do that. Hunter does not seem to do that in the years I have watched him. He (old terminology) throws the barrel of the bat and to make contact on the sweet spot the ball goes 400 feet about 30 feet foul. I want that ball to be fair.

Therefore there are 2 adjustments he can make. He can work on getting his hands pulled into his body while maintaining lag on the barrel. Pete Alonso works on that exact move in his pre swing warmup. OR he can move further away from the plate and hit the ball to all fields and hit the ball deeper in the strike zone.

And don't argue over terminology. It changes, but hitting doesn't because it is math on fixed points. So old terminology is just as valid as today's terminology. I have talked hitting with some of the greats. None of them ever said I didn't know what I was talking about.

One more thing. I watched this Mike Trout hitting analysis yesterday from MLB Network. Trout has a very similar slightly open stance that he actually steps towards the plate a bit just like Hunter does. He is about 4 or 5 inches off the inside batters box like where Hunter is more like 2 or 3 inches off that line. The expert talks about how Trout is a down in the zone hitter which is another way the ball is automatically further from your hands and has to lay off the high strikes. Maybe he can watch that.

 

[o_HuntDawg]

This is my last comment since you are not worth having a discussion with.

The plate is a fixed location in space. It does not move. Therefore the strike zone does not move and once we go to robo calling balls and strikes that will be absolute. So as a hitter you know where the pitcher HAS to throw the ball for a strike. So you can adjust your location in relation to that fixed area to have strikes be in a better location for your style of hitting. The ball has to be about 17 to 23 inches from your hands to hit the sweet spot on the barrel of the bat. Your angle of attack also is important to how large that sweet spot is at contact and to the direction of the balls path. To get jammed the ball is hitting the bat closer to your hands than that 17 inches point.

Therefore by moving off the plate you can make your hands automatically about 12 to 14 inches away from the inside corner of the plate. That will eliminate the inside pitch that can jam you on a strike. You don't have to swing at an "inside" pitch because it is not a strike. You just catch that inside strike ball more in front of your body and pull that pitch and hit the sweet spot and a get a fair ball. It does force you to make a little adjustment to an outside corner pitch but you just have to hit it deeper in the strike zone. Watch the Sullivan kids at bats during this past weekend. That is how he is hitting right now. That Grand Slam was an outside pitch that he hit deep in the zone.

Hunter's hands are over the plate when he goes through the strike zone and hits a ball up the middle. That's why he can't hit the ball into fair territory on a ball on the inside 4 inches of the plate. He would have to pull his hands into his body to keep the barrel at an angle to keep the ball fair off the sweet spot. Now some hitters do that. Hunter does not seem to do that in the years I have watched him. He (old terminology) throws the barrel of the bat and to make contact on the sweet spot the ball goes 400 feet about 30 feet foul. I want that ball to be fair.

Therefore there are 2 adjustments he can make. He can work on getting his hands pulled into his body while maintaining lag on the barrel. Pete Alonso works on that exact move in his pre swing warmup. OR he can move further away from the plate and hit the ball to all fields and hit the ball deeper in the strike zone.

And don't argue over terminology. It changes, but hitting doesn't because it is math on fixed points. So old terminology is just as valid as today's terminology. I have talked hitting with some of the greats. None of them ever said I didn't know what I was talking about.

Bruce i dont disagree with any of that.

Basically he's got to keep his hands inside the ball more and catch it outfront a little more. Hes what i call around it at this point, he's gotta get back inside the ball. But again we are 20 at bats in.

The adjustment to back up off the plate.. as you said... forces a complete adjustment on where other pitches are and how to hit them. While at the same time opening up the outer half of the plate to be attacked. Which is a huge adjustment for someone that has had the success he's had, by doing this pitches hes seen for years that look like a strike are now balls and vice-versa... and while you seem to want him to make the whole approach change..i think thats a change that would have had to have been made in the fall or off-season. Right now i'd actually do the opposite. Have him stand directly on top of the plate. Attempt to pull everything. Be a a little more patient and wear anything on the inner half for an HBP. Similar to what the Schwarber kid at Philly does... i'd also get him out of the middle of the order.. and move him to the lead off spot, but thats probably more analytical than some people on this board like to dig into

 

[Perd Hapley]

hence the bet... he's a top 10 talent due to his power tool alone. Lots of things go into who gets drafted where. Look no farther than our very own Jake Mangum.

If he was a Top 10 talent due to his power tool alone (that’s what she said….), he would have gotten drafted in the Top 10 rounds last year.

What you think is super special and unique about him isn’t nearly as unique as you think it is. Take a guess where he finished in the SEC stat rankings in HR’s last year - his Jr year - which should have been his peak output season. Tied for 23rd, with at least 2 or 3 other players in the SEC. 25-26 other guys in the SEC alone that matched or exceeded his HR production. That’s just among 14 teams in one conference. Think about all the high school and other college talent that is also equal or better.

Now, when he makes contact, he hits it farther than most, but that only matters IF you can make contact. There’s a list a mile long of guys who could hit it 500 feet, but couldn’t ever register a 3-digit MLB batting average.

The worst part though, its all he does. He has little to no defensive value, can’t hit for average, is too undisciplined to get on base at a high clip with walks, can’t beat out double plays, etc. When you do one thing above average (but not elite), and do everything else below average, you don’t have much value at all to professional baseball.

Mangum was either the first or second 4th year player off the board in his Sr year. Totally different situation and very different from Hines. He was elite as a contact hitter (which isn’t valued very much by MLB anymore, unfortunately), and pretty good in just about every other area except power, which he has improved upon in the minors. He had a much more diverse and complete skill set than Hines, by far, and the fruits of that are now being seen with him at least on TB’s 40-man roster.

 

[o_HuntDawg]

If he was a Top 10 talent due to his power tool alone (that’s what she said….), he would have gotten drafted in the Top 10 rounds last year.

What you think is super special and unique about him isn’t nearly as unique as you think it is. Take a guess where he finished in the SEC stat rankings in HR’s last year - his Jr year - which should have been his peak output season. Tied for 23rd, with at least 2 or 3 other players in the SEC. 25-26 other guys in the SEC alone that matched or exceeded his HR production. That’s just among 14 teams in one conference. Think about all the high school and other college talent that is also equal or better.

Now, when he makes contact, he hits it farther than most, but that only matters IF you can make contact. There’s a list a mile long of guys who could hit it 500 feet, but couldn’t ever register a 3-digit MLB batting average.

The worst part though, its all he does. He has little to no defensive value, can’t hit for average, is too undisciplined to get on base at a high clip with walks, can’t beat out double plays, etc. When you do one thing above average (but not elite), and do everything else below average, you don’t have much value at all to professional baseball.

Mangum was either the first or second 4th year player off the board in his Sr year. Totally different situation and very different from Hines. He was elite as a contact hitter (which isn’t valued very much by MLB anymore, unfortunately), and pretty good in just about every other area except power, which he has improved upon in the minors. He had a much more diverse and complete skill set than Hines, by far, and the fruits of that are now being seen with him at least on TB’s 40-man roster.

he would have gotten drafted last year in the top 10 rounds if he wanted to be drafted.

on the 20/80 scale is power is 65-70. Thats big league power and a big league tool. Lots of players dont have a big league ready tool. He does.

His defense is adequate.

Im in no way saying he's some super start or anyting of the such. But with the DH is the game and the way teams platoon R/L matchups.. there are a laundry list of players with his skill set (LHH, Power, Average D at best, Lots of K, walk and struggle with LHP) that are in and make big league rosters or stick with organziations for a long time because of that tool. Really if he would just improve the walk rate.. his projects would go up even more.

The power skill.. much like the velo skill with a pitcher... is the skill that you either have or dont have.. and he's got it... and in with both skills... big league organzations will give players with elite power or elite velo numerous opporutnies to succeed that people without that skill dont get.

 

[NukeDogg]

you coulda just stopped at the first paragraph.

However i will say that again that Hines was our 2nd best hitter in SEC play last season.. he hit 12 homers in SEC play.. and the 2nd half of last season he hit nearly 300. He got off to a brutal start. Hopefully he wont get off to that slow of a start this season ... but again like you said in paragraph 1.. there wasnt much room for improvement the day he walked on campus. Some people expected him to be 380 with 30 bombs by this time and that just wasnt gonna happen....

that being said.. he's been an overly productive player his entire career here and if half his K's were ground outs or fly outs.. he wouldnt catch half the crap he does on these boards... people get carried about with the strikeouts and strikeouts are part of the game now.. and will always be a part of his game

#1 -- If half his K's were turned into ground balls or flyouts, he wouldn't catch half the crap that he does because those can be productive outs to move or score runners. Against Troy he had 9 runners LOB I believe? And 4 K's. Turn two of those K's into sac flies and we win the dang game. Sure, he'll hit a homer one day that wins us the game. But for every game he wins with a HR, we lose 3 others because he can't hit a sac fly or draw a walk.

#2 -- Hines is waaaaaay too impatient at the plate. Every team in D1 baseball knows he can't hit a breaking ball out of the zone, so that's all he gets. If he'd learn to walk, he'd see more strikes, which would give more HR opportunities. He can pound the ball when it's a strike. But I'd venture to say he sees less strikes than 3/4 of SEC hitters, because everyone and their mother knows you can K him without giving him anything decent to hit. And he does absolutely nothing to adjust to it. Just continues to crowd the plate, foul off anything close, and chase sliders in the dirt.

You keep trying to convince us he's this awesome hitter and that we should laud him and adore him for what he is. And you think its ridiculous that every other person in this thread is saying He could be so much more than what he is.

 

[Bagman.sixpack]

he would have gotten drafted last year in the top 10 rounds if he wanted to be drafted.

on the 20/80 scale is power is 65-70. Thats big league power and a big league tool. Lots of players dont have a big league ready tool. He does.

His defense is adequate.

Im in no way saying he's some super start or anyting of the such. But with the DH is the game and the way teams platoon R/L matchups.. there are a laundry list of players with his skill set (LHH, Power, Average D at best, Lots of K, walk and struggle with LHP) that are in and make big league rosters or stick with organziations for a long time because of that tool. Really if he would just improve the walk rate.. his projects would go up even more.

The power skill.. much like the velo skill with a pitcher... is the skill that you either have or dont have.. and he's got it... and in with both skills... big league organzations will give players with elite power or elite velo numerous opporutnies to succeed that people without that skill dont get.

Do you know him? I don't think he was happy about not getting drafted.

 

[Perd Hapley]

he would have gotten drafted last year in the top 10 rounds if he wanted to be drafted.

He didn’t want to be drafted?

on the 20/80 scale is power is 65-70. Thats big league power

Now do every other SEC hitter that finished Top 25 in the league in HR’s last year. The game has changed. Power numbers and “power tools” are up across the board. He isn’t special.

and a big league tool. Lots of players dont have a big league ready tool. He does.

His defense is adequate.

His defense at 1B may be adequate, but his MLB defensive value is near non-existent….like I said. He can only plug into a lineup in the same 2 spots that just about anyone else can - 1B and DH. He offers nearly nothing here that teams can’t get literally anywhere else. If you just put the names into a hat of every non-pitcher in D1 baseball that was draft eligible in 2025, and just chose one at random, you’d be damn near guaranteed to pick a player that was as valuable or more valuable than Hines is defensively.

 

[mcdawg22]

He'll end up hitting 270 with at last 15 homers

and he'll be drafted in the top 10 rounds.

Willing to bet as much money as you want on those. You name your price and we'll find a 3rd party to handle the money until the season is over.

Put your money where your mouth is... Or you just flapping your man sucker?

You have grown tiresome. $50 Hines doesn’t get drafted in the top 10 rounds.